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Ethics Question - Selling to "Scammers"

timebider

timebider

Some like 'em hot!
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I find myself in an unexpected situation with some potentially ticklish ethics issues so I thought I'd ask the good folks here for opinions.

I've recently started a small, local feeder operation and am trying to build up my customer base. I was contacted early this week for rats by a guy in my area who has been exposed as a scammer in the not-so-distant past. Long story short, he's been busted selling stolen animals, though he did "do right" when he was caught by returning the stolen animals to the person who outed him on the BOI.

While I certainly want to increase my business, honesty and integrity are of utmost importance to me. I've lost reptile sales before because I refuse to deal with shady characters, but selling a snake to someone who will be keeping it or reselling it is a bit different from selling feeders that are already dead or else destined to die. I'm struggling with whether to sell rodents to this guy; while he has never done me any harm personally (and it seems somewhat unfair to indict him on his dealings with others that are, legally at least, hearsay to me), I question the wisdom of doing any form of business with someone whose reputation in the community is at best shaky...even though, again, he did make right on his one "bust" when threatened with police involvement. To my knowledge, the animals he's been selling lately were all legally obtained (though he does "flip" a lot). And there is always the possibility - however small it may be - that he learned his lesson and will stick to the straight and narrow from here on out.

What say ye, reputable members of the herp community? Give this guy a chance, or skip it? :eek:
 
P.S. - feel free to e-mail me with advice, but please no PMs - my box is almost full and I have to go through and clear it out. :D
 
Someone who knowingly sells stolen property is not someone I would sell to.
And returning something only when they got busted is not really doing right.
For the sake of having a good reputation I would not associate with this person in any business dealings. Just my 2 cents.
 
The part that would concern me is that he got busted for selling "stolen" animals. If the person wasn't going to be anywhere near my property or have any access then I wouldn't have a problem selling him feeders.

The way I see it, is when a criminal (shoplifter for example) gets out of jail, they have to go to the store and eat. The store he/she stole from may not ever let her back in while that management is in charge, but other stores would (they wouldn't know).:shrug01:
 
I personally would pass on the person's business but that's just my little opinion.
 
AbsoluteApril said:
I personally would pass on the person's business but that's just my little opinion.
Click to expand...

Interested in debating the issue?

The guy has to buy feeders from somewhere. He can probably get them off the internet (f/t) from the bigger organizations, but why not let the little guy make some money?

My concern would be the "theft" possibility.
 
This is very much a debatable issue... The guy gets busted selling stolen animals so there is no forgiving him for that... that's just out and out wrong however if he doesn't have access to any of your stock besides over the internet then why not give the small business a chance to make a little money? I wouldn't see a problem with selling feeders to someone because they are dead already and he does need to feed his animals so why not let it be the little guy?

I myself wouldn't sell any type of live stock to said person but if it were feeders I would give it a chance.

Just my .02
 
If I know someone is a 'bad guy' then I wouldn't want to do business with them for anything, live stock or dead feeders. There's someone that a long time ago got in trouble, served their time and is selling stuff that I would love to have, but I just can't ethically deal with them due to their past. I know that's not quite the same situation, but just trying to give an example of how hard-headed I am about it. LOL I guess it comes down to just the simple association.

I understand your point about letting the 'little guy' make money but even making money off of scammers just doesn't seem quite right to me, what's the moral difference between buying from or selling to a scammer?

Plus, if this person is a known theif, what's to stop them from following 'you' (the seller) home and staking out your place?
 
Ill just throw this out there (mainly as a another POV) say you do sell him feeders, and he is still selling stolen animals, what's to stop him from giving you the dirty money?
 
Another POV: How is he supposed to work his way back up and earn respect if we DON'T give him that chance?

If we just assume that he's dealing dirty still that's what we are doing. Even prisoners get another chance. In the absence of no recent misbehaving..when does he get parole?
 
deborahbroadus said:
Interested in debating the issue?

The guy has to buy feeders from somewhere. He can probably get them off the internet (f/t) from the bigger organizations, but why not let the little guy make some money?

My concern would be the "theft" possibility.
Click to expand...

I'll debate the issue.... I'll even keep it a friendly debate even though I am very firm in my stance.

I say tell him to take a hike. For me it would be no different that refusing to sell animals to some of the folks thats been outted here.

Yes... Im trying to run a business, but at what cost. What price do I put on my reputation. Here is the reason I say that.... What if it became known that I am knowingly supplying a proven bad guy? What does that make me? I am helping keep a bad guy in business.

The fact that this guy was selling stolen animals is one of the worst in my book. Its one thing to sell a sick animal then make it right... but this guy broke the law before he ever got started.

Take a hike... I dont need your money.
 
deborahbroadus said:
Another POV: How is he supposed to work his way back up and earn respect if we DON'T give him that chance?

If we just assume that he's dealing dirty still that's what we are doing. Even prisoners get another chance. In the absence of no recent misbehaving..when does he get parole?
Click to expand...

earn respect? He should have thought about that BEFORE he stole someones animal.

In my book.. there is a difference between giving a person a chance because of bad business ethics and then they saw the light and made it right vs giving a person a chance because of both bad business ethics and bad morals. The key is this guy knew stealing was wrong (both ethnically and morally) but he chose to do it anyway..... but not only did he steal..... but he stole from the community that he is now trying to gain the trust from.

Sorry... no dice.
 
RidgeTop Reptiles said:
earn respect? He should have thought about that BEFORE he stole someones animal.

In my book.. there is a difference between giving a person a chance because of bad business ethics and then they saw the light and made it right vs giving a person a chance because of both bad business ethics and bad morals. The key is this guy knew stealing was wrong (both ethnically and morally) but he chose to do it anyway..... but not only did he steal..... but he stole from the community that he is now trying to gain the trust from.

Sorry... no dice.
Click to expand...

Can't argue the logic. So your solution is to drive him out of the business/reptile community from lack of resources. What if the tactics simply drive him underground
 
I'll use myself as an example. I had contacted someone about maybe selling wholesale animals to them late last year/early this year. Then I found out about their past. Part of their past did not bother me, but the lying and trying to cheat other breeders did.

This has been quite a while back that they did this... but I can not ethically sell to them. I dont need the money that bad.
 
deborahbroadus said:
Can't argue the logic. So your solution is to drive him out of the business/reptile community from lack of resources. What if the tactics simply drive him underground
Click to expand...

Im not nieve enough to think we can drive him out. He could always breed his own or buy from the big time rodent sellers. But why should us little guys give him a source when it was us little guys that he stole from in the first place... and then passed off stolen goods to.
 
timebider said:
I question the wisdom of doing any form of business with someone whose reputation in the community is at best shaky...even though, again, he did make right on his one "bust" when threatened with police involvement. To my knowledge, the animals he's been selling lately were all legally obtained (though he does "flip" a lot). And there is always the possibility - however small it may be - that he learned his lesson and will stick to the straight and narrow from here on out.
Click to expand...

Let me say this.... what I put in bold above is standard criminal/convict thinking. All he was doing was trying to save his own skin. Period. I deal with this mentality on a daily basis at my real job. IF there never was any threats of police action or he was never busted.. he would continue what he was doing. Even after criminals are caught... they often continue what they were doing that got them caught in the first place. This has been proven over and over again by them coming back to prision.
 
RidgeTop Reptiles said:
Im not nieve enough to think we can drive him out. He could always breed his own or buy from the big time rodent sellers. But why should us little guys give him a source when it was us little guys that he stole from in the first place... and then passed off stolen goods to.
Click to expand...

Before you get the mistaken impression that I am getting soft in my old age... I agree with you.

However even prisoners get second chances. I can only speak for myself as to whom my ethics would allow me too do business. However, shouldn't we also take into account the time frame of the incident and whether or not they have stayed out of trouble all this time afterwards?
 
Both Kevin and Deborah have brought up good points!! It's a lot to think about when dealing with something like this. This person is a known thief and that in itself would more then likely cause most to stear clear even if he/she hasn't done anything bad since that one incident... it's the fact that they did it in the first place.

I'm sure this person will get some business somewhere in the reptile industry since there are new feeder suppliers popping up here and there all the time and some may not know his past. I guess I would have to say.. with the points of view brought up... I would most likely stear clear of someone known to have stolen from this community.

We all have a right to change our minds don't we.. LOL... I'm not saying that he should be driven out but his name will always be associated with the theft and therefore people would have to be caustious dealing with this said individual.

Just my Opinion :)
 
deborahbroadus said:
Before you get the mistaken impression that I am getting soft in my old age... I agree with you.

However even prisoners get second chances. I can only speak for myself as to whom my ethics would allow me too do business. However, shouldn't we also take into account the time frame of the incident and whether or not they have stayed out of trouble all this time afterwards?
Click to expand...

But how do we know they have stayed out of trouble... .maybe they just haven't gotten caught again.

Here's a question. 5 years from now... would you deal with the wise's if no-one ever posted another thing about them. (you dont have to answer). My answer would be :censored: no!!! Not only did it amount to bad business ethics... but was also bad morals as well.

Sure... ex cons get another chance with society once their time is done.... and ex cons also commit the same crimes and come right back into the pen.
 
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