Info Evan Stahl

[Morph72]

Hello. I purchased a pair of White Lipped Pythons from Evan Stahl a few weeks ago. I was working on a trade with someone for them, and they asked me who produced them, as they were advertised as CBB from Evan. It sounded like he had a whole clutch, and I just assumed he bred them. I told the person I got them from Evan Stahl and I assumed he produced them, since he advertised them as CBB. This person came back and told me Evan didn't produce them and wanted to know if I know who did. OK...No big deal. I'll just email Evan and ask him who produced them. I put the email string below. It actually starts at the bottom and works up from there. The bottom line is Evan won't tell me who produced them, as it must be top secret. Then comes back and tells me that I just need to take his word because he's been in the business for 25 years. So because of this, I should just accept everything he tells me as gold. I have news...I've been in the hobby since '96. I'm no rookie. I don't just expect everyone to believe every word I say. Granted I have been out of the hobby for a few years...I'm no dummy. I have never had anyone refuse to tell me who produced animals before or after I have spent my hard earned money for them, when they have been represented as CBB. Especially on something like White Lips. Everyone will want to know if these are CBB or CH or whatever. So, now the conversation goes something like this with my potential trade deal for these White Lips:

Me: (I advertise them as CBB)

Potential Customer: "These are Beautiful. I really want them. I"ll trade you *****."

Me: "I'm in. When can we meet?"

Potential Customer: "I'm free Friday. By the way...Who produced these?"

Me: "I got them from Evan Stahl. I assume he did since it sounded like he had a whole clutch when I bought these."

Smart Potential Customer: (After some time passes while he's doing his research) "Even did not produce these. Do you know who did?"

Me: "I thought he did. Let me ask him who did."

Potential Customer: "So you have no paperwork on these?"

Me: "No."

Potential Customer: "Ah Ha! Yeah, that's way too much to risk to lose the animals I'm trading, only to get possible Farm Raised/CH animals. Thanks anyway and good luck selling them!"

That's how the conversation ended with the trade. Now I have a pair of White Lipped Pythons with no proof of being CBB and no paperwork, which means I have to sell them as CH at best...which isn't what I bought them as. Yes, I know...My fault for not getting all of this up front. Shame on me.

As a side note, Even called me the week after I received the White Lips, asking me about shipping animals to me and the way I wanted them shipped. I have never done business with him before this so I don't know him whatsoever. I was expecting a shipment of geckos from someone the next day, and I thought when he called me, it was for those geckos. After getting off the phone with him, I realized this wasn't my gecko shipment and I called him back several times with no answer to tell him I don't have another shipment from him, and he has his wires crossed somewhere. Then I finally get ahold of him and tell him and asked him what he was shipping me. He told me some Kings. I told him those weren't mine. He said "What?". I said those are not my snakes. I got the white lips from you last week. So he went back just in time to get the order straight and get them to the right person. Then as I'm reading what people are saying about him on the BOI, I have found at least 2 other times when people said he shipped their animals somewhere else. Even, for 25 years in the business, and your word as good as gold, you certainly aren't on top of things! Half of what I read on here is negative about him. The White Lips are in good shape, and eating, etc. I'm not complaining about the animals...but his practices and ethics are questionable at best. This will be the last time I will be sending him my money.

So that night I email Evan and this is how the conversation goes...from bottom to top: Please pay attention how he tries to flip the conversation to something I never said, nor eluded to...as what I see with all of the threads on here concerning him. He always seems to pipe in with anger and say it's someone else's fault...always the other person's fault...never his. There's a lot to be said just in that alone.......

_________________________________________________________________

you are not a liar. I have been in the business for 25 years and am telling you that they are captive bred, I guarantee that, they came from me. There are no farm bred d'alberts pythons


-----Original Message-----
From: pbhughett72 <[email protected]>
To: evansnakes <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, Jul 24, 2014 2:01 am
Subject: Re: Message about Baby D'alberts or White Lipped Pythons from [email protected]

You're missing the point. I never said I expected you to breed all of your animals. I simply said I was trying to to a deal today and was asked where these animals came from and I said you. I represented them as CBB, and I was called out on that. I thought you bred them. No big deal. I was simply trying to find out who did, so I don't look like the liar I appear to be now. no worries. Wasn't aware it was a big deal to find out. I'll sell or trade them as farm raised.



-----Original Message-----
From: evansnakes <[email protected]>
To: pbhughett72 <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, Jul 24, 2014 12:53 am
Subject: Re: Message about Baby D'alberts or White Lipped Pythons from [email protected]

I have immediately answered every question that you have ever asked me. I have never tried to hide anything from you. I sell thousands of animals and it is not possible to breed them all. Everyone that breeds and sells to the pet trade buy from other people and resell. I held the animals, made sure they were healthy and eating well and then sold them to you for a very reasonable price. Not sure what more I need to do.


-----Original Message-----
From: pbhughett72 <[email protected]>
To: evansnakes <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, Jul 24, 2014 1:35 am
Subject: Re: Message about Baby D'alberts or White Lipped Pythons from [email protected]

I didn't think they were WC. I just didn't know if they were farm bred (possibly WC import parents, etc.) or USCBB. I was asked today who bred them and I said I got them from you and thought you did. Then I was told you didn't, and I didn't have an answer. Not a good spot to be in.



-----Original Message-----
From: evansnakes <[email protected]>
To: pbhughett72 <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, Jul 24, 2014 12:23 am
Subject: Re: Message about Baby D'alberts or White Lipped Pythons from [email protected]

they are captive bred. there are no farm bred d'alberts and how would they be wild caught when they were almost new born babies.



-----Original Message-----
From: pbhughett72 <[email protected]>
To: evansnakes <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Jul 23, 2014 11:59 pm
Subject: Re: Message about Baby D'alberts or White Lipped Pythons from [email protected]

That makes it difficult to resell them as CB. Are these USCBB animals or Farm Bred? I was working a deal today and got toasted because of this.

Patrick


-----Original Message-----
From: evansnakes <[email protected]>
To: pbhughett72 <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Jul 23, 2014 10:53 pm
Subject: Re: Message about Baby D'alberts or White Lipped Pythons from [email protected]

Hey Parick, I do but he sells them to me so he doesn't have to so he doesn't want me to tell people

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


-----Original Message-----
From: pbhughett72 <[email protected]>
To: evansnakes <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Jul 23, 2014 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: Message about Baby D'alberts or White Lipped Pythons from [email protected]


Hey Evan,

Do you know who produced these white lips?

Patrick

 

[Dennis Hultman]

A Couple of points.

"Paperwork" is as good as the person writing it. You essential have the paperwork.

Evan states they are CBB in the email. Regardless of paperwork attached, Anyone reselling any animal they did not produce only has the word of the person they bought them from.

The paperwork you have (since none was asked for ahead of time) is the email stating such from Evan.

If you bought directly from someone who stated specifically they bred them, You would only have their word and whatever they wrote up for you as "paperwork".

Instead, You bought from Evan who states they are in fact CBB to you and sold them to you as such.

He is the seller to you and represented them to you as such.
If they weren't CBB you would hold him accountable as you would anyone else that claimed they produced them with or without paperwork. He would then have to hold the person he bought them from accountable if they weren't.

If you have no reason to believe they aren't then you have no issue.

Next point, I have/had a similar arraignment with several.

I have never had anyone refuse to tell me who produced animals before or after I have spent my hard earned money for them, when they have been represented as CBB.

I chose this method for multiple personal reasons. Violating those terms without a valid reason or concern (which would only be questions of health, fraud or deceit) would be the end of any business relationship to those that I do business with.

You have no reason to believe the animals are not what was sold to you. Evan is under no obligation to tell you who he purchased from. He is the only the person accountable to you for what you purchased from him.

He is your paperwork.

 

[hhmoore]

I, too, have sold things for resale with the stipulation that I not be revealed as the breeder. Like Dennis, I would expect that to be honored.
From another perspective, if a seller reveals his animal source the buyer can then try to buy direct (or refer others in that direction).

 

[Tortugas]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't understand the point of this message? I have purchased from Evan before, and everything went smoothingly well. Communication was good, I sent the money, and he shipped as promised.

I don't see any hint of an issue other than you wanting to know his breeder source, and him protecting his business for those that would potentially want to go around him and get a better deal.

I think the lesson learned is ask up front if someone that is selling captive raised animals actually bred or were raised by whom ever is selling them.

By posting this here for this reason, you could potentially hurting his reputation and business.

Just my thoughts.

Bill Griffin

 

[evansnakes]

Thank you guys for saying what I would have said in my absence. Patrick got from me two perfect, healthy, eating, baby white lipped pythons, which is exactly what he was promised. They are captive bred. There are no "farm bred" d'alberts pythons as I told him. The reason he is upset is because he posted them for sale for more than he bought them for and his buyer contacted me to verify the animals' origin and I told him that they were captive bred but apparently he rejected his deal with Patrick and now that is my fault. This thread should never have been started.

I have answered every question asked of me honestly and in a timely manner, shipped without incident and received email from him on receipt that he was happy with them and then he told me that they ate well for him.

His bizarre and punitive mention of my shipping f'up is an excellent example of how petty he is. I was very sick, just out of the doctor's office running to get to UPS before the cut off and grabbed the wrong airbill with his name on it as it was very similar to the other customers location and name. Oops. I made a mistake! Nobody has ever done that before. But then to post that as if it is a strike against my character on here is just a lousy thing to do. I thought you were a good guy Patrick but apparently you are not.

 

[evansnakes]

Oh and Patrick, I ship over 300 packages a year. If you found 2 other shipments I have screwed up in 25 years that is nothing short of AMAZING! And the last shipment that got sent to the wrong place was because UPS removed the air bills to inspect the packages to ensure that I was honoring my contract with them and shipping correctly and what I said I was shipping and they replaced 2 airbills on the wrong boxes. They reshipped the packages for free and apologized to me for what happened and here I am one of very few people allowed to ship live animals with UPS.

 

[Morph72]

The fact that I have them posted for more than what I bought them for has no bearing on this. You do the same don't you Evan? You have so much anger...it shows in all of your posts. Seems like you're always defending yourself. Either way, just because of your outbursts, I'm joining the half of the people on here that don't care for you. You like collecting money, but don't like being questioned.

As a side note, You seem to want me to believe that there is absolutely no possible way that a white lipped python could be imported, gravid, and lay eggs for babies to hatch from. In this case, they wouldn't be USCBB, would they? There are other possibilities. From my experience, and from what I've read, you're not the God you want to appear to be.

Take care all. I'll accept the feedback...Thank you all. I have learned something today.

 

[Lucille]

don't care for you.

You don't have to like a seller, but that is certainly different than implying that they have done something wrong. You have been given several adequate explanations as to why a seller may not want to reveal his sources.
Your one buyer may not have gone for your deal, but there may be others who would.

 

[meowmeowkazoo]

The original poster should have secured this information before buying from Evan, but I don't think he's in the wrong here for asking Evan for additional information to make a sale. I have to admit I don't understand the reasoning behind keeping yourself secret as the breeder. Isn't the reason we have this BOI so that people can build good or bad reputations that follow them? What's the point of all that if people are just going to sell anonymously through third parties anyway?

 

[meowmeowkazoo]

You don't have to like a seller, but that is certainly different than implying that they have done something wrong. You have been given several adequate explanations as to why a seller may not want to reveal his sources.
Your one buyer may not have gone for your deal, but there may be others who would.

I honestly haven't seen any explanations for why a seller doesn't reveal his sources beyond "personal reasons" and "because the breeder requested it." To me those are non-explanations.

 

[evansnakes]

I am angry Patrick because I have done nothing wrong and yet I still have to defend myself from little people like you who want everybody to stop their lives and jump to help you play lawyer ball. YOU failed to ask a question that you want the answer to that is not my fault. I know the snakes are captive bred because I know and trust the person that I bought them from who does not want to talk to you or deal with you in any way shape or form because of this kind of absolutely punitive waste of time. You are trying to slander and hurt me here when I have done nothing wrong and the fact is that the best defense against slander is truth and it is not on your side. You got 2 excellent, healthy, obviously quality animals that are flawless, eating great and were less than a month old when you got them and just be honest, you are only angry because one guy does not trust you and wont pay you what you want for them. I had about 20 people that wanted to buy those from me after I sold them to you so I guess people just do not want to buy them from YOU Patrick. Almost all the big names in the business buy and resell animals and when they do they just sell them as their animals to avoid this. I am being 100% honest and straight forward and this is what I get. You have no complaint with the animals, shipping, price or anything else and were not at all unhappy weeks ago, but now you are? This is nothing but a BS thread posted by a petty person trying to hurt an honest seller for no good reason.

 

[Lucille]

I honestly haven't seen any explanations for why a seller doesn't reveal his sources beyond "personal reasons" and "because the breeder requested it." To me those are non-explanations.

I, too, have sold things for resale with the stipulation that I not be revealed as the breeder. Like Dennis, I would expect that to be honored.
From another perspective, if a seller reveals his animal source the buyer can then try to buy direct (or refer others in that direction).

I don't believe the above are non-explanations. A breeder maybe excellent in production, but not want the additional work of selling.

 

[Chris Kennard]

I am angry Patrick because I have done nothing wrong and yet I still have to defend myself from little people like you who want everybody to stop their lives and jump to help you play lawyer ball. YOU failed to ask a question that you want the answer to that is not my fault. I know the snakes are captive bred because I know and trust the person that I bought them from who does not want to talk to you or deal with you in any way shape or form because of this kind of absolutely punitive waste of time. You are trying to slander and hurt me here when I have done nothing wrong and the fact is that the best defense against slander is truth and it is not on your side. You got 2 excellent, healthy, obviously quality animals that are flawless, eating great and were less than a month old when you got them and just be honest, you are only angry because one guy does not trust you and wont pay you what you want for them. I had about 20 people that wanted to buy those from me after I sold them to you so I guess people just do not want to buy them from YOU Patrick. Almost all the big names in the business buy and resell animals and when they do they just sell them as their animals to avoid this. I am being 100% honest and straight forward and this is what I get. You have no complaint with the animals, shipping, price or anything else and were not at all unhappy weeks ago, but now you are? This is nothing but a BS thread posted by a petty person trying to hurt an honest seller for no good reason.

Wow! Seems like "little" insignificant Patrick struck a nerve. I was on the fence til I read the first arrogant, condescending and melodramatic sentence in this post. Here's an idee'r. How's about filtering through those twenty other people who wanted those snakes and find the ones who don't care who bred the snakes and give those people Patrick's number. I doubt Patrick makes his buyers walk on eggshells for an answer to a simple and reasonable question. Just my opinion.

 

[jusmebabee]

Why is it hard to understand? The breeder doesn't want to be known.
Why is not our business.
I have no idea who Evan is but I fail to see where he was rude or hurt someones feelings.
I have no inside info but maybe this kind of nonsense is why some breeders choose to have a middle man.
If you plan to flip then get the info before purchasing.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

The original poster should have secured this information before buying from Evan, but I don't think he's in the wrong here for asking Evan for additional information to make a sale. I have to admit I don't understand the reasoning behind keeping yourself secret as the breeder. Isn't the reason we have this BOI so that people can build good or bad reputations that follow them? What's the point of all that if people are just going to sell anonymously through third parties anyway?

Nothing wrong with asking but is was answered. It was addressed in the very first correspondence. So why the thread? He asked the question and was answered.

Bottom-line Evan sold the animals and guarantees them. That is who the buyer purchased them from. Evan is the one guaranteeing them. Evan is the one advertising them and the one who sold them. For whatever reason the breeder chose not to deal with the public really isn't anybody's business. He isn't selling to the public.

Isn't the reason we have this BOI so that people can build good or bad reputations that follow them? What's the point of all that if people are just going to sell anonymously through third parties anyway?

For those that want to do that and use this site in that manner, Yes. Does that mean everybody in the world has to breed for name recognition? Does that mean Evan's breeder is even a member here?

Nobody is selling anonymously. Someone sold them to Evan (I think he knows who it was) and Evan sold them to the public. Evan sold them and he is accountable for what he sold. I don't really understand the point? Nobody is hiding that sold them to the public.

Evan stated who he purchased from doesn't sell to the public. That's really the only answer anyone needs unless someone here is claiming some fraud? It's a question that has no bearing because Evan takes full responsibility for the description and the sell of the snakes.

I honestly haven't seen any explanations for why a seller doesn't reveal his sources beyond "personal reasons" and "because the breeder requested it." To me those are non-explanations.

Why does there need to be an explanation? If someone doesn't want to sell to the public, do they have to? No, of course not. If they aren't dealing with you, Why do they owe you an explanation? The person also didn't sell to the thread starter here so why would the breeder owe him his name?

It goes both ways. Some dealers request it as well. That part was touched on with Harald's post.

From another perspective, if a seller reveals his animal source the buyer can then try to buy direct (or refer others in that direction).

I don't think that is a non-explanation. Seems like a very business orientated reason.

Believe it or not some people breed what they want to because they enjoy it and not for the name recognition or potential financial gain. Just a hobby they enjoy and wish to continue. There could be many reasons.

Such as

Maybe some lack the time to sell to the public (including shipping and customer service), aren't great at marketing or just don't want to deal directly with people. Wholesaling is perfect for them.

Maybe some just don't like people and suck at customer service. Instead of selling directly to the public and ending up on the BOI, they wisely chose not to deal with the public. I would think that was a smart move for them.

Then you can look at just the business aspects of having exclusive type contracts. They benefit both parties greatly for many reasons.

The dealer can have a guaranteed source. A breeder can have a guaranteed buyer at a fixed price depending on the type of arrangement.

I can think of many reasons why a breeder would enter into agreements of this kind. Time and guarantees could be high on the list.

Many times these agreements come with nondisclosure agreements from one or both parties.

My "personal reasons" are somewhat different and don't really matter.

So in the end, Evan advertised some snakes and stands by their description. Nobody claims with any proof (or without any proof) that he advertised them falsely. Although, the suggestion could be there with this thread depending on the reader. If he has a contract with a breeder that doesn't deal with the public, then whose business is it? Particularly with great inference, that their is nothing wrong with the animals and no reason that is posted to suspect that the animals aren't represented correctly.

 

[Unsterblich]

Sounds like a bunch of cry baby stuff to me. Get over it. Move on. Bottom line, you got what you payed for. End of story.

 

[hhmoore]

I have to admit I don't understand the reasoning behind keeping yourself secret as the breeder. Isn't the reason we have this BOI so that people can build good or bad reputations that follow them? What's the point of all that if people are just going to sell anonymously through third parties anyway?

I sent you a PM with my own explanation; but these questions are better suited to General Business Discussions. If anybody wants to pursue that discussion, please do so in a more appropriate section; so as not to continue off topic.

 

[redhood23]

I have dealt with Evan, and he is a great guy to deal with. Just as everyone else has said, if Evan sold them to you as CBB animals, that is what they are! Your proof is your email from him. That is that! Quit crying about it and get your info before purchasing if you are going to flip animals.

 

[WebSlave]

Warning: How about toning back on the derisive nature of some of these posts, please.

 

[Casey Hulse]

I agree with Dennis completely. Evan does not need to violate the trust of the breeder and divulge his name. You should have made the inquiries before purchasing them, Evan would have explained that he could not say, you could have moved on.....no big deal. Evan may be quick to anger, but I have never seen anyone call into question the quality of his animals.
Your "potential customer" is likely someone who works with White lipped, and was just fishing for info. and decided to "piss in the pool" before he left.

Bottom-line Evan sold the animals and guarantees them. That is who the buyer purchased them from. Evan is the one guaranteeing them. Evan is the one advertising them and the one who sold them. For whatever reason the breeder chose not to deal with the public really isn't anybody's business. He isn't selling to the public.