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Info Evan Stahl

Lol...no worries Dennis.

And Lucille, you're just being ridiculous. You have taken everything I have said out of context...but I always consider the source, and you're not worth another response. I'm sure most everyone else reading this can conclude that you're just going off the handle and spinning everything I say out of proportion and out of context.
 
Morph72 said:
Lol...no worries Dennis.

And Lucille, you're just being ridiculous. You have taken everything I have said out of context...but I always consider the source, and you're not worth another response. I'm sure most everyone else reading this can conclude that you're just going off the handle and spinning everything I say out of proportion and out of context.
Click to expand...

Often when people have their back agaist the walk they try to take the heat off themselves by turning attention elsewhere.
My posts are well reasoned, there is no question that real proof was not your goal, and that you turned on Evan because a customer gave you a hard time.
 
Sarah - these aren't ball pythons, where there are quite literally thousands of people breeding them across the country, and where name and reputation can be the key to a sale. White lipped pythons have more specialized needs, mature at a slower rate, and don't have the popularity caused by morph variability. Shift your thought process and imagine being inundated with calls/emails from people that find out you are successfully breeding them. Demand will FAR outweigh your supply. (there was more, but I just looked at the clock, and have to leave.)
 
I had 2.4 of these guys in 1988. Wish I would have kept them. What Harald says is true.
 
I produced them, saw copulations in February, then eggs followed, and then I incubated them myself...it was a hard 65 days, but I did it and my glutes are so toned from all that squatting.




I am joking.
 
I think this should be looked at from the actual breeder's perspective. Presuming the breeder is a "he", just for simplicity sake, "he" quite likely wholesales out his animals for a reason. He probably wants to simplify things. He sells most or all of them at one fell swoop, and if there are any issues, he only has the one seller to deal with. He got less money for the animals, but didn't have the headaches associated with retail sales. He probably feels that this is a fair tradeoff. More than likely he does not want to deal with the buyer's customers too. Heck, who would under that sort of circumstance?

Years ago I sold a bunch of animals to a wholesaler who sold most of them to one of his customers in Germany. Week or so later, I'm getting a phone call from Germany from a guy complaining about some of those babies not eating. Long story short, I found out that out of the 150 or so, 10 of them were being reluctant to feed, so when I pointed out the percentages, the German guy saw that this was not all that unreasonable, and that was that. Yes, I did talk to the guy, but did I appreciate my wholesaler giving MY contact info to him? No, not one bit. The German guy was not my customer. He was the wholesaler's customer. I'll deal with my customers, thank you very much, and he should deal with his own. If I were to be getting calls from all of the customers my wholesalers sold my animals to, implying that I was accepting customer service responsibility for the animals at that point, then what was I really gaining by selling the animals wholesale (meaning at a cheaper price)? If that kept up, guess what? I would have been dropping that wholesaler. They can't have their cake and eat it too.

Which is quite likely why Evan didn't want to involve his supplier in this issue. Why should he? He had more to lose than he had to gain at that point. Once he bought the animals from the breeder, they were HIS animals. They were then HIS responsibility, not the breeder's. If there was a paperwork issue, that should have been a bone of contention before the sale was agreed to by the end buyer. Not after the fact. If it was necessarily a contingency that the sale to you depended on, then the time for that to be brought up passed on by once you paid for and took receipt of the animals.

IMHO, of course.

{soapbox mode OFF}
 
I couldn't agree more with Patrick. I learned in the early 2000s, from experience, not to trust the biggest reputations in the biz. If a breeder, seller wants to remain anonymous, that is a red flag...period. Gray areas are bs. Patrick already purchased the snakes, thus not trying to cut out the middleman. A person's rep does not give them a pass to treat people the way Evan does. I can't wait til someone here goes through a similar experience. I'm sure the reaction will be different. I will truly admit that I am disappointed at some of the posts made here by people I have come to admire after years of boi slobberknockers and heated disagreements. Patrick, don't bother selling the snakes as anything but "I don't knows". If you give them the sellers number, they will never want to deal with you again after Evan is done with them. H
 
Chris Kennard said:
I couldn't agree more with Patrick. I learned in the early 2000s, from experience, not to trust the biggest reputations in the biz. If a breeder, seller wants to remain anonymous, that is a red flag...period. Gray areas are bs. Patrick already purchased the snakes, thus not trying to cut out the middleman. A person's rep does not give them a pass to treat people the way Evan does. I can't wait til someone here goes through a similar experience. I'm sure the reaction will be different. I will truly admit that I am disappointed at some of the posts made here by people I have come to admire after years of boi slobberknockers and heated disagreements. Patrick, don't bother selling the snakes as anything but "I don't knows". If you give them the sellers number, they will never want to deal with you again after Evan is done with them. H
Click to expand...
What's so wrong about wanting to be anonymous? If you just want to breed animals and not deal with 1/4 (exaggerated of course) of the nation's population, then selling to a wholesaler you trust to keep his/her lips sealed is perfectly legitimate. Now refusing to share certain records is a different story, if the breeder refuses upfront to the wholesaler to not supply any records of parents, hatching dates, feeding records, etc... then that is a red flag because you can supply that without anyone knowing it's you. Not keeping good records is poor form in my opinion and I think we are all guilty of it, I have lost a few ID cards and lineage pictures here and there, but if you are serious then you have at least a few things to show evidence of production.
 
A couple of you have brought up some good points...Vance...Rich. You guys made me see some things in a different light. While those points are valid, I still believe more information could have been offered. Just like what was mentioned...perhaps birthdates, feeding records, photo ID's from the breeder (without their information), etc. Is that 100%? Nope! Does it make a majority of people feel more confident to buy from you if you can provide some information? Damn Straight it does!

I am also of the belief that if you're going to sell to the "public", whether it be to one person or a thousand, then be prepared to deal with the public.
 
This thread just gave me a headache!

When you buy a Hershey chocolate bar, do you need to speak to the person at the factory who melted and processed it to confirm it's really a Hershey bar?!

This is plainly just retarded since it was stated numerous times why some breeders like the anonymity, just like the Wizard of Oz.
 
Morph72 said:
A couple of you have brought up some good points...Vance...Rich. You guys made me see some things in a different light. While those points are valid, I still believe more information could have been offered. Just like what was mentioned...perhaps birthdates, feeding records, photo ID's from the breeder (without their information), etc. Is that 100%? Nope! Does it make a majority of people feel more confident to buy from you if you can provide some information? Damn Straight it does!

I am also of the belief that if you're going to sell to the "public", whether it be to one person or a thousand, then be prepared to deal with the public.
Click to expand...
They probably do deal with the public, as their main job. I know a few people who sale to wholesalers just because their day job already takes up their time. Could you imagine being something like an ER nurse and coming home from the night shift to ten emails asking, "Hey, what weight and what would shipping be to xxxx"? To avoid this, Nurse imaginary just sold her entire clutch to a wholesaler so she could enjoy her hobby without unwanted hassle in her personal life.
 
EmeraldBoid said:
They probably do deal with the public, as their main job. I know a few people who sale to wholesalers just because their day job already takes up their time. Could you imagine being something like an ER nurse and coming home from the night shift to ten emails asking, "Hey, what weight and what would shipping be to xxxx"? To avoid this, Nurse imaginary just sold her entire clutch to a wholesaler so she could enjoy her hobby without unwanted hassle in her personal life.
Click to expand...

That would certainly take all the fun out of your hobbie!!!

This thread is simple. One seller being upset that another seller wouldn't reveal the source of their product. I asked before, why was there a need to post here and not another area of the web site.

So what if he got defensive after being asked about his source of the snakes - that is his livelyhood. I think it makes sence as so many have pointed out above.

Now his competitor post here which could potentially hurt his reputation.

I have not seen anything that Evan did that would lead to having him pulled into the BOI.

My experience with Evan was perfect. The posters was as well - other than asking, after the purchase, for the name of the original breeder.

Go Volunteers!!!

Bill Griffin
 
Dennis Hultman said:
Sorry, I was coming up with reasons in general as to why people do, not taking a swing at you. I apologize for the way I worded that.
Click to expand...

No worries, it's possible I was just feeling defensive.

I believe this is just a case where I really underestimated the difference in mindsets between different types of breeders. I can much better understand the reasoning behind a breeder wanting to stay anonymous now, so I thank all of you for explaining that.
 
SofaKing said:
This thread just gave me a headache!

When you buy a Hershey chocolate bar, do you need to speak to the person at the factory who melted and processed it to confirm it's really a Hershey bar?!

This is plainly just retarded since it was stated numerous times why some breeders like the anonymity, just like the Wizard of Oz.
Click to expand...

I've never known anyone to buy a Hershey bar to resell it or spend alot of money raising and feeding it. And if the breeder was a deceptive person like the Wizard, he wouldn't be very successful. What would be "retarted" is if everyone believed everything that is "stated" here.
 
I have read over some of the replies from some of you, and I honestly can't believe what I just read. Some of you just have so much hate in you. The assumptions of me "just wanting to make a quick buck", or "wanting someone to reveal their sources" to me. Then the guy that has a headache from reading the thread and thinks it's all "retarded", and compares spending hundreds of dollars on living animals that cost money to take care of and feed, in a hobby where reputation means a lot and so does the origin of animals, etc. to buying a Hershey bar...Are you kidding me?! All I can say to that guy is, am I the retarded one for wanting more information on my animals and not just accepting the attitude I got, or are you the retarded one for reading someone that gives you a headache, when no one is pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to read it. Go read somewhere else.

Let me tell you guys something. I work over 70 hours a week...I work so much that I had to have Evan ship the animals to my work and it took over a week just to figure out the shipping arrangements because of that. I have a job and that is where my money comes from. Do you guys have any idea how many animals I have? I have 2 snakes and a few geckos. That's it! The only snakes I own are the very 2 I got from Evan. I don't care about his "sources"! I'm not here to undercut someone! I don't make my living on a couple of bucks from 2 snakes. I bought them from Evan, and was happy with the "deal". I'm happy with the animals. All of you who are throwing out all of these assumptions and twisting up every word I say, clearly haven't read what I have been saying. Not once did I say I was unhappy with the animals. Not once did I say I got a bad deal on them. The only one thing I posted on here for was the attitude I got when questioning Evan on getting more information to pass on to any potential buyer/trader. I wasn't trying to make a quick buck on these. They are worth a good amount and I set up a very fair trade. I was then put in a position that I couldn't answer any question I was asked by the other party, and I don't like being put in that position...period. I'm sure if any of your were in a same boat, you would be a bit frustrated as well.

I should have asked before hand, but I just didn't think about it. That doesn't excuse the way Evan attacked me for questioning him. I think that's pretty crappy to come at someone the way he did in the emails for me simply trying to get more information on animals I spent hundreds of dollars for. I don't and won't let anyone talk to me like that...especially after sending them my hard earned money that I work 7 days a week to get. Just because maybe YOU had a great experience with him doesn't mean anything to me. I treat people how I'm treated. The way he came at me in email, you would have thought I was trying to infiltrate some top secret intelligence that only he had access to, when I asked one simple question. Even if he had given an alternative, instead of...screw you that's all you get...I probably would have accepted it much better.

I read the post by Rich about people fearing posting here, and I completely get it now. The last time I had anything to do with the BOI, before this, was well over a decade ago. I remember how attacking it was. This will be my last time here. If this is what the hobby has come to, I don't care to associate. I just didn't agree with being shut out and basically told to go f*** myself for asking a simple question. Then I posted here to voice my disbelief and to find out if it was common practice or not. Apparently it is, so I learned a good lesson. I've learned that paperwork and "proof" is useless and means nothing, no matter what anyone says is just as easily a lie as the truth, and now all of my animals have just become CBB. ;)

I mean...after all, if nothing matters when proving or disproving origin or anything else about an animal, and from what I've read, a lot of you are perfectly fine not knowing where your animals came from, then I think I could go somewhere with this! ;)

There is so much hatred and anger in so many of you that you would assume so much about someone you don't know, and have no proof to back it up. But then again...Proof is what this thread is all about, and apparently it means nothing, so it all makes sense.

You guys all take care.

..........yes, even you Mr. Retarded I have a headache because I'm reading something I don't like, that no one is forcing me to read, but I continue to anyway, and thinks a Hershey bar is the same as live animals that take money and food and care....even you! ;)
 
Patrick, there are only a handful of white lipped breeders in the States. If you took a look at some of the carpet python forums, you may be able to figure it out - or get a better lead.

Or maybe not.

Is it common practice? Yeah it is. I don't advertise anymore, I sell a few animals to people who know what I breed and then sell the remaining clutch to someone else. I ask that my info not be given out in connection with the animals if they decide to sell them to someone else. Some people who know what I breed figure it out anyway and email me.

I've got a full time job and do not like dealing with inquiries, emails and the the like.

I've never done business with Evan, don't know him. Therefore I'm not a fanboi with a dog in this fight or a burning desire to defend him.

Like I stated earlier, depending on their age, you can probably narrow down to 100% that they are at least hatched here in the states. Whether or not they are CBB - who knows? At this point, you have Evan's word on it. If that ain't enough for the next buyer...well........
 
Patrick keep :deadhorse

To many people have already stated on reasons why some Breeders like to stay silent. I'm not sure why it's so hard to comprehend that and just let it go.


If you took the Hershey comment literally, then there's a bigger situation at hand.



Really Chris?!
 
Morph72 said:
I have read over some of the replies from some of you, and I honestly can't believe what I just read. Some of you just have so much hate in you. The assumptions of me "just wanting to make a quick buck", or "wanting someone to reveal their sources" to me. Then the guy that has a headache from reading the thread and thinks it's all "retarded", and compares spending hundreds of dollars on living animals that cost money to take care of and feed, in a hobby where reputation means a lot and so does the origin of animals, etc. to buying a Hershey bar...Are you kidding me?! All I can say to that guy is, am I the retarded one for wanting more information on my animals and not just accepting the attitude I got, or are you the retarded one for reading someone that gives you a headache, when no one is pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to read it. Go read somewhere else.

Let me tell you guys something. I work over 70 hours a week...I work so much that I had to have Evan ship the animals to my work and it took over a week just to figure out the shipping arrangements because of that. I have a job and that is where my money comes from. Do you guys have any idea how many animals I have? I have 2 snakes and a few geckos. That's it! The only snakes I own are the very 2 I got from Evan. I don't care about his "sources"! I'm not here to undercut someone! I don't make my living on a couple of bucks from 2 snakes. I bought them from Evan, and was happy with the "deal". I'm happy with the animals. All of you who are throwing out all of these assumptions and twisting up every word I say, clearly haven't read what I have been saying. Not once did I say I was unhappy with the animals. Not once did I say I got a bad deal on them. The only one thing I posted on here for was the attitude I got when questioning Evan on getting more information to pass on to any potential buyer/trader. I wasn't trying to make a quick buck on these. They are worth a good amount and I set up a very fair trade. I was then put in a position that I couldn't answer any question I was asked by the other party, and I don't like being put in that position...period. I'm sure if any of your were in a same boat, you would be a bit frustrated as well.

I should have asked before hand, but I just didn't think about it. That doesn't excuse the way Evan attacked me for questioning him. I think that's pretty crappy to come at someone the way he did in the emails for me simply trying to get more information on animals I spent hundreds of dollars for. I don't and won't let anyone talk to me like that...especially after sending them my hard earned money that I work 7 days a week to get. Just because maybe YOU had a great experience with him doesn't mean anything to me. I treat people how I'm treated. The way he came at me in email, you would have thought I was trying to infiltrate some top secret intelligence that only he had access to, when I asked one simple question. Even if he had given an alternative, instead of...screw you that's all you get...I probably would have accepted it much better.

I read the post by Rich about people fearing posting here, and I completely get it now. The last time I had anything to do with the BOI, before this, was well over a decade ago. I remember how attacking it was. This will be my last time here. If this is what the hobby has come to, I don't care to associate. I just didn't agree with being shut out and basically told to go f*** myself for asking a simple question. Then I posted here to voice my disbelief and to find out if it was common practice or not. Apparently it is, so I learned a good lesson. I've learned that paperwork and "proof" is useless and means nothing, no matter what anyone says is just as easily a lie as the truth, and now all of my animals have just become CBB. ;)

I mean...after all, if nothing matters when proving or disproving origin or anything else about an animal, and from what I've read, a lot of you are perfectly fine not knowing where your animals came from, then I think I could go somewhere with this! ;)

There is so much hatred and anger in so many of you that you would assume so much about someone you don't know, and have no proof to back it up. But then again...Proof is what this thread is all about, and apparently it means nothing, so it all makes sense.

You guys all take care.

..........yes, even you Mr. Retarded I have a headache because I'm reading something I don't like, that no one is forcing me to read, but I continue to anyway, and thinks a Hershey bar is the same as live animals that take money and food and care....even you! ;)
Click to expand...

I see... Sure, it's the BOI's fault because everyone here is not joining hands with you to grab Evan and beat the piss out of him verbally for you, eh?

BTW, my comments in another thread had nothing to do with suggesting that everyone must agree with whatever anyone else makes claims about. It addressed the harsh METHODS by which people were rebutted. You were addressed here far more gently than what I have seen in the past when I created that other thread as a warning/suggestion. You seem greatly put out simply because quite a few people merely disagree with you.

Not sure what planet you are from, but here on Earth, it's not at all unusual for people to not uniformly agree with someone else's opinion. if you cannot accept this little nugget of info, then yes, this is going to be a pretty tough planet for you to live on.
 
I'm a little confused. Isn't one of the first words of advice we give to new hobbyists is to buy from reputable breeders? How can they do this if the breeders refuse to identify themselves?

Don't get me wrong, I understand that there maybe reasons for a breeder to keep their names out of the picture but in that case I do not think it is unreasonable for people like Patrick to have questions about the animals or the breeder. In my mind, if a breeder wants to remain anonymous I can't help but wonder if he has something to hide. It may not be warranted but it is also not unrealistic. The question then becomes would Patrick had still purchased the animals from Evan had he known Evan did not produce them and he would not be able to find out who did. The bottom line here for Patrick is he learned his lesson. Always ask who produced the animals. if the answer you get is not satisfactory move on.

I think part of the mindset against Patrick here is that he is trying to resell the animals but just remember Patrick is no different than Evan in this case. Both bought animals with the intention of reselling them for a profit. You can't paint Patrick in a negative light for doing this without doing the same to Evan. However, what if instead of buying them for resale Patrick was trying to establish a breeding group and he wanted to know if the animals he just purchased were related to one he already had. Would he then be in the wrong for wanting to know who produced the animals? OK, now what of the person buying from Patrick is trying to establish a breeding group. Is he wrong for wanting to know who produced the animals? In this instance I think it is very insensitive and bordering on unethical for the breeder not to reveal himself.

I don't think Evan did anything wrong by not revealing the breeders name, on the contrary if that was in fact part of the agreement then he was obligated not to reveal it. On the other hand, when such information is clearly important to one of your customers I think you should try to accommodate them if possible. If I were in Evan's shoes I would have contacted the breeder and explained the situation. I would have given Patrick's contact info to the breeder and I would have left it up to the breeder if he or she wanted to contact Patrick and reveal himself or not. I would have then told Patrick that this is what had done and apologize for not being able to do more. In that case, if I were Patrick I would accept Evan's effort to accommodate me and thank him for his assistance.

I guess what this whole thing boils down to for me is the double standard. Herald says these are not ball pythons and suggests they need not be held to the same scrutiny but I disagree. To the person buying them, where they originated is just as important as if they were a more common snake and lineage may be more important. If there is absolutely only one source for a particular animal then it doesn't matter since everyone knows where they came from. If there are multiple sources but those sources are identical then it may not matter so much either but if there are multiple sources and those sources may not be equal I see absolutely no problems with trying to find out what the source is.

Of course we all know that what threads like this usually accomplish is to reveal things about a variety of the posters that, truth be told, would have served their purposes much better had they not been revealed.
 
No Rich. It's not that they don't agree with me. As I stated in my last post, it's the way everything I said was taken out of context and misconstrued...as well as assumptions made that simply weren't true. This is not a business for me. It's a hobby. I have very very few animals. I'm not out to find someone's source to undercut them. However, all of this untrue nonsense is just...well......not true.
 
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