Info Evan Stahl

[hhmoore]

I guess what this whole thing boils down to for me is the double standard. Herald says these are not ball pythons and suggests they need not be held to the same scrutiny but I disagree. To the person buying them, where they originated is just as important as if they were a more common snake and lineage may be more important. If there is absolutely only one source for a particular animal then it doesn't matter since everyone knows where they came from. If there are multiple sources but those sources are identical then it may not matter so much either but if there are multiple sources and those sources may not be equal I see absolutely no problems with trying to find out what the source is.

You seem to have taken my comment out of context - my reference to BPs was strictly in response to the OP's repeated comments about farmed babies and imported gravids.
I have no problem with somebody desiring information about the origins of animals they purchase; but, if it was important to the OP, he should have made the inquiry prior to purchase. He didn't...and, if he needed that information after the purchase, he should have been the one to make a polite inquiry. Don't misunderstand that statement - I still fully support Evan not revealing the info - but the inquiry to him should not have been from a potential customer of another seller.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Steve, nothing you stated was incorrect about what is recommended but I still don't see how it applies.

If I am adding stock to any breeding program, I'll do my diligence appropriate for the species ahead of time. It's recommended, Of course! Because someone didn't does that mean he has a right to conclude that who he purchased from is wrong because they can't or won't identify the information after the fact? That wasn't agreed upon prior to the purchase.

Stating what is recommended by most doesn't translate to a double standard if someone didn't do it.

I guess what this whole thing boils down to for me is the double standard. Herald says these are not ball pythons and suggests they need not be held to the same scrutiny but I disagree.

Harald didn't state that. He was providing an example as to why someone who breeds theses might chose not to sell to the public. Another reason to add to the many already given.

It wouldn't be a double standard because someone breeding BPs that also wanted to wholesale their animals and entered an agreement to withhold their name would also have the same right. He was simply giving more possible reasons to another poster why this person may have went with that option.

No double standards

Everyone has a right to sell their animals to whomever they want. People have a right to wholesale their animals.

Breeders who don't want to sell to the public or give their names have a right to sell their animals to people who agree with this.

Everyone has a right to ask questions, Everyone that cares about their breeding programs or the origins of their animals should ask appropriate questions.

You can equally believe in all those points.

Yes, it is recommended to buy from reputable sources, ask questions and be in informed buyer. If the person can't answer your questions to your satisfaction buy from someone else.

That doesn't translate that if you don't do what you should ahead a time that you have a right to tarnish someones name that has done nothing wrong. You shouldn't try to force someones hand who didn't lie to you or mislead you.

Defending Evan's rights to make contracts with people and uphold them doesn't have anything to do with the standards which people recommend before purchasing.

 

[Morph72]

I guess the good news out of all of this is that IF I keep and successfully breed these, then I have my own line of White Lips!

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Then I posted here to voice my disbelief and to find out if it was common practice or not. Apparently it is, so I learned a good lesson.

I've learned that paperwork and "proof" is useless and means nothing, no matter what anyone says is just as easily a lie as the truth, and now all of my animals have just become CBB.

Reading my post to Steve you will see my opinion on this. As stated before paperwork is as good as who wrote it. It's important to have the information for yourself and when selling to many people.

Like you stated, it is your fault for not asking the relevant questions that you now require.

Does that mean Evan did anything wrong?

Why does he have to violate his agreements to satisfy you? Do you think that is right? I wouldn't trust anyone that made an agreement with me and then violated it just because someone wants to know my name.

Look, there are more than a few threads here where Evan has lost his temper or I stated I thought he was wrong about something he did or posted.
I don't believe he is here.

You stated

I should have asked before hand, but I just didn't think about it. That doesn't excuse the way Evan attacked me for questioning him. I think that's pretty crappy to come at someone the way he did in the emails for me simply trying to get more information on animals I spent hundreds of dollars for.

I know Evan can be short tempered so lets look at the emails you provided.

If it simple as him being rude let's look at your point about that.

You

Hey Evan,

Do you know who produced these white lips?

Patrick

Him

Hey Parick, I do but he sells them to me so he doesn't have to so he doesn't want me to tell people

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

Seems reasonable and nice. You don't like the answer but it isn't a "attack".

Continue-

You

That makes it difficult to resell them as CB. Are these USCBB animals or Farm Bred? I was working a deal today and got toasted because of this.

Patrick

Him

they are captive bred. there are no farm bred d'alberts and how would they be wild caught when they were almost new born babies.

You

I didn't think they were WC. I just didn't know if they were farm bred (possibly WC import parents, etc.) or USCBB. I was asked today who bred them and I said I got them from you and thought you did. Then I was told you didn't, and I didn't have an answer. Not a good spot to be in.

Him

I have immediately answered every question that you have ever asked me. I have never tried to hide anything from you. I sell thousands of animals and it is not possible to breed them all. Everyone that breeds and sells to the pet trade buy from other people and resell. I held the animals, made sure they were healthy and eating well and then sold them to you for a very reasonable price. Not sure what more I need to do.

You

You're missing the point. I never said I expected you to breed all of your animals. I simply said I was trying to to a deal today and was asked where these animals came from and I said you. I represented them as CBB, and I was called out on that. I thought you bred them. No big deal. I was simply trying to find out who did, so I don't look like the liar I appear to be now. no worries. Wasn't aware it was a big deal to find out. I'll sell or trade them as farm raised.

Him

you are not a liar. I have been in the business for 25 years and am telling you that they are captive bred, I guarantee that, they came from me. There are no farm bred d'alberts pythons

Show me the attacks in the above emails, Please.

You asked him, he told you.

You didn't like the answer but he didn't attack you.

You then went on to explain why you were asking even though he already told you he wasn't providing what you wanted.

During your last posted email you stated no big deal but you didn't want to seem like a liar as you thought you were made out.

His final reply to you was You aren't a liar and he guarantees the animals.

Where are the attacks that lead you here?

 

[Chris Kennard]

Steve, nothing you stated was incorrect about what is recommended but I still don't see how it applies.

If I am adding stock to any breeding program, I'll do my diligence appropriate for the species ahead of time. It's recommended, Of course! Because someone didn't does that mean he has a right to conclude that who he purchased from is wrong because they can't or won't identify the information after the fact? That wasn't agreed upon prior to the purchase.

Stating what is recommended by most doesn't translate to a double standard if someone didn't do it.


Harald didn't state that. He was providing an example as to why someone who breeds theses might chose not to sell to the public. Another reason to add to the many already given.

It wouldn't be a double standard because someone breeding BPs that also wanted to wholesale their animals and entered an agreement to withhold their name would also have the same right. He was simply giving more possible reasons to another poster why this person may have went with that option.

No double standards

Everyone has a right to sell their animals to whomever they want. People have a right to wholesale their animals.

Breeders who don't want to sell to the public or give their names have a right to sell their animals to people who agree with this.

Everyone has a right to ask questions, Everyone that cares about their breeding programs or the origins of their animals should ask appropriate questions.

You can equally believe in all those points.

Yes, it is recommended to buy from reputable sources, ask questions and be in informed buyer. If the person can't answer your questions to your satisfaction buy from someone else.

That doesn't translate that if you don't do what you should ahead a time that you have a right to tarnish someones name that has done nothing wrong. You shouldn't try to force someones hand who didn't lie to you or mislead you.

Defending Evan's rights to make contracts with people and uphold them doesn't have anything to do with the standards which people recommend before purchasing.

I fail to see where Evan's name was tarnished or where Patrick tried to force his hand.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I fail to see where Evan's name was tarnished or where Patrick tried to force his hand.

Yes, it is recommended to buy from reputable sources, ask questions and be in informed buyer. If the person can't answer your questions to your satisfaction buy from someone else.

That doesn't translate that if you don't do what you should ahead a time that you have a right to tarnish someones name that has done nothing wrong. You shouldn't try to force someones hand who didn't lie to you or mislead you.

I didn't state it was accomplished. In the context that I wrote the quote to Steve I stated it didn't give anyone the right to.

It wasn't tarnished. If you are just stating it wasn't because the evidence isn't here on this thread to do so then I'm in agreement.

If you saying it didn't happen then I'll support my reasoning.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

If you saying it didn't happen then I'll support my reasoning.

*The attempt to

 

[evansnakes]

Just a quick comment, I never told anyone how much they were sold for. They were for sale on kingsnake for 4-5 days. Anyone interested in them, like the new buyer Patrick was talking to would have looked at my post and know how much they were being sold for. That customer even told me that he did not mind paying what Patrick was asking for them. All that I said to him was that I was selling the animals and that I was backing the animals and that was that, there would be nobody else involved. I had them since they were very young and trusted my source on them and I guaranteed that they were captives. That is all that was said.

 

[TriangleReptiles]

I've read the entire thread. Did the OP make a mistake by assuming Evan bred these snakes ? Yes. Was the OP wrong for asking? No. Was Evan wrong for not violating a trust? No. Does Even have a condescending, piss poor attitude and horrible customer service skills? You be the judge. I have made my decision.

 

[Chris Kennard]

I didn't state it was accomplished. In the context that I wrote the quote to Steve I stated it didn't give anyone the right to.

It wasn't tarnished. If you are just stating it wasn't because the evidence isn't here on this thread to do so then I'm in agreement.

If you saying it didn't happen then I'll support my reasoning.

With all due respect, please don't mistake me for someone who's intelligence can't be insulted. I am stated nothing. You did and I responded. Your implication was clear. No way around it. The context is it's own entity. My point in questioning your comments was that I don't believe his name, rep or business was tarnished nor do I think his hand was forced. You made these comments for a reason.

 

[Chris Kennard]

Steve, nothing you stated was incorrect about what is recommended but I still don't see how it applies.

If I am adding stock to any breeding program, I'll do my diligence appropriate for the species ahead of time. It's recommended, Of course! Because someone didn't does that mean he has a right to conclude that who he purchased from is wrong because they can't or won't identify the information after the fact? That wasn't agreed upon prior to the purchase.

Stating what is recommended by most doesn't translate to a double standard if someone didn't do it.


Harald didn't state that. He was providing an example as to why someone who breeds theses might chose not to sell to the public. Another reason to add to the many already given.

It wouldn't be a double standard because someone breeding BPs that also wanted to wholesale their animals and entered an agreement to withhold their name would also have the same right. He was simply giving more possible reasons to another poster why this person may have went with that option.

No double standards

Everyone has a right to sell their animals to whomever they want. People have a right to wholesale their animals.

Breeders who don't want to sell to the public or give their names have a right to sell their animals to people who agree with this.

Everyone has a right to ask questions, Everyone that cares about their breeding programs or the origins of their animals should ask appropriate questions.

You can equally believe in all those points.

Yes, it is recommended to buy from reputable sources, ask questions and be in informed buyer. If the person can't answer your questions to your satisfaction buy from someone else.

That doesn't translate that if you don't do what you should ahead a time that you have a right to tarnish someones name that has done nothing wrong. You shouldn't try to force someones hand who didn't lie to you or mislead you.

Defending Evan's rights to make contracts with people and uphold them doesn't have anything to do with the standards which people recommend before purchasing.

Also Dennis, had I not read this whole thread, I would have thought Patrick accused Evan of lying and misleading. That's just not the case. Why would you write that? I will submit that your quoty post was enlighting and spot on. I did not recognize anything wrong with his responses. I do however disagree with the way he handled the customer. And I do think he has a valid argument. JMO.

 

[Ed Clark]

I guess the good news out of all of this is that IF I keep and successfully breed these, then I have my own line of White Lips!

No Patrick, you may possibly be breeding siblings!

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Also Dennis, had I not read this whole thread, I would have thought Patrick accused Evan of lying and misleading. That's just not the case. Why would you write that? .

Where did I Imply that he did? Because I stated Evan didn't mislead him implies that I was making it appear Patrick Stated that he did? Where did I state that? Where did I ever come close to stating he stated it?

That's kind of warped argument don't you think?

 

[Ed Clark]

Something else Patrick, before you purchased the pair it would have been a good idea to check as many python classifieds as possible. you would have noticed that there were alot of imported babies for sale.

Not saying that what you bought are imports.you have to do your home work before hand.

 

[hhmoore]

I guess the good news out of all of this is that IF I keep and successfully breed these, then I have my own line of White Lips!

Not really.... but I'll play along for a moment.
How do you figure you'll have your own line?
What will set them apart from other white lipped pythons? You can put your name on anything you produce; but, if they're just like the ones everybody has, it won't stick.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Also Dennis, had I not read this whole thread, I would have thought Patrick accused Evan of lying and misleading. That's just not the case. Why would you write that? I will submit that your quoty post was enlighting and spot on. I did not recognize anything wrong with his responses. I do however disagree with the way he handled the customer. And I do think he has a valid argument. JMO.

I think it is obvious that I was stating that if Evan mislead him or lied that would be a justification (to me) as to why there should be a thread here.

Let me go back to your other point.

I stated that

Yes, it is recommended to buy from reputable sources, ask questions and be in informed buyer. If the person can't answer your questions to your satisfaction buy from someone else.

That doesn't translate that if you don't do what you should ahead a time that you have a right to tarnish someones name that has done nothing wrong. You shouldn't try to force someones hand who didn't lie to you or mislead you.

I stated it doesn't give anyone the right to.

You stated his reputation wasn't hurt and his hand wasn't forced.

I agree with your exact wording. It wasn't.

Your implying (but will not come out and plainly state it) he didn't try to do either.

I disagree. For one, we are discussing it on this thread. Was this thread created to bolster his reputation?

Let's take his exact reasons for creating it.

The only one thing I posted on here for was the attitude I got when questioning Evan on getting more information to pass on to any potential buyer/trader. I wasn't trying to make a quick buck on these. They are worth a good amount and I set up a very fair trade. I was then put in a position that I couldn't answer any question I was asked by the other party, and I don't like being put in that position...period. I'm sure if any of your were in a same boat, you would be a bit frustrated as well.

I should have asked before hand, but I just didn't think about it. That doesn't excuse the way Evan attacked me for questioning him. I think that's pretty crappy to come at someone the way he did in the emails for me simply trying to get more information on animals I spent hundreds of dollars for. I don't and won't let anyone talk to me like that...especially after sending them my hard earned money that I work 7 days a week to get. Just because maybe YOU had a great experience with him doesn't mean anything to me. I treat people how I'm treated. The way he came at me in email, you would have thought I was trying to infiltrate some top secret intelligence that only he had access to, when I asked one simple question. Even if he had given an alternative, instead of...screw you that's all you get...I probably would have accepted it much better.

This thread is here because Patrick states he was attacked by Evan. He was addressed horribly.

That's why he states he posted this thread. So he isn't trying to tarnish his rep? OK.

So to the claim made, and let's see if I can pull a one line statement out of the full context of a statement

I couldn't agree more with Patrick.

How was Patrick attacked in the emails? He states it is the reason was this thread.

I don't and won't let anyone talk to me like that...especially after sending them my hard earned money that I work 7 days a week to get.

He is mad that Even attacked him and he won't let anyone talk to him like that, So he started this thread. The only problem is Even didn't attack him prior to this thread.

He didn't try, Chris? I stand by my opinion that it was attempted.

I also stand by my opinion that not accepting the answer given and starting this thread is attempt to force the issue.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Also Dennis, had I not read this whole thread, I would have thought Patrick accused Evan of lying and misleading. That's just not the case. Why would you write that? I will submit that your quoty post was enlighting and spot on. I did not recognize anything wrong with his responses. I do however disagree with the way he handled the customer. And I do think he has a valid argument. JMO.

Also, Maybe you should read it again.

So in the end, Evan advertised some snakes and stands by their description. Nobody claims with any proof (or without any proof) that he advertised them falsely.

If you have no reason to believe they aren't then you have no issue.

Nothing in the quote came anywhere close to making anyone think that Patrick stated he had been lied to or mislead.

I have stated that those would be valid reasons for the thread and they are lacking.

I don't think it is hard to comprehend what I stated there.

I have to correct something though.

Where did I Imply that he did? Because I stated Evan didn't mislead him implies that I was making it appear Patrick Stated that he did? Where did I state that? Where did I ever come close to stating he stated it?

Well that would be here at the beginning of this thread I guess.

Nobody claims with any proof (or without any proof) that he advertised them falsely. Although, the suggestion could be there with this thread depending on the reader.

 

[Chris Kennard]

I think it is obvious that I was stating that if Evan mislead him or lied that would be a justification (to me) as to why there should be a thread here.

Let me go back to your other point.

I stated that



I stated it doesn't give anyone the right to.

You stated his reputation wasn't hurt and his hand wasn't forced.

I agree with your exact wording. It wasn't.

Your implying (but will not come out and plainly state it) he didn't try to do either.

I disagree. For one, we are discussing it on this thread. Was this thread created to bolster his reputation?

Let's take his exact reasons for creating it.


This thread is here because Patrick states he was attacked by Evan. He was addressed horribly.

That's why he states he posted this thread. So he isn't trying to tarnish his rep? OK.

So to the claim made, and let's see if I can pull a one line statement out of the full context of a statement


How was Patrick attacked in the emails? He states it is the reason was this thread.


He is mad that Even attacked him and he won't let anyone talk to him like that, So he started this thread. The only problem is Even didn't attack him prior to this thread.

He didn't try, Chris? I stand by my opinion that it was attempted.

I also stand by my opinion that not accepting the answer given and starting this thread is attempt to force the issue.

You didn't say "force the issue", you said "force his hand". Big difference. One thing I noticed is that you use quotes to amplify your opinion, but don't use them to defend your statements. Patrick stated many positive things about Evan in this thread. I have not once heard Patrick accuse Evan of "misleading", "lying" or seen any evidence of Patrick trying to "force his hand". But not for reading your posts, I would not have reread this thread trying to find that info. If I missed it, than you failed to provide the quotes, as you have, to amplify every other opinion you have regarding this issue. For the record, I think I made it clear that I agreed Evan's responses were acceptable. It was his arrogance in this thread that swayed me.

 

[chuckwalla]

Sounds to me from all this that the original potential customer just wanted an excuse to get out of the trade whether he just changed his mind or whatever. If the snakes were beautiful as he origianally stated and they were doing great(eating etc) what would make a person refrain from the deal? I dont know that's just my opinion. Not a snakes guy so looking at this with no predudice. And really I can understand Evan not wanting to give upo his source. He is a business man and that's the facts. How many of you or us would give up a source you are getting "beautiful" animals from that you are in business to resell for a profit? I just saying from an outsiders point of view.
Tom