Exotics-r-us/ Ray Hunter/ Ricky D

[herpetological]

Kevin

You say other people have had bad dealings with ERJ? I know of a couple that were very minor. The threads can be found and were resolved. You also state that they are afraid to come on here because they will be attacked. Please ask them to do so. If they have a legitimate claim and can provide proof they will NOT be attacked. There have been other threads where someone was posted as a good guy...that changed when others came on with solid proof and used intelligence(NOT name calling)to back their claims as well. So that should not be a problem. I think we have pretty much gotten to the bottom of this. ERJ's policies were NOT followed. You knew these were imports that were untreated. Even, IF, yes....IF Ray H. sent you bad animals... you did not follow the through with notification. I'm not going to go into the other issues. Can we be done now? You can stand on your issue of "bad animals". Ray H. can stand on his issue of TOS violation. I still don't think you did get bad animals however, I cannot prove it. In closing this was brought to my attention: Oregon State law -

"Veterinary certificates of health inspection must be obtained within the state from which individual animal shipments originate and should be included with any importation permit request. Animal importation permits are issued free of charge on the basis of individual health certificates. Importation permits may be obtained from the Oregon Department of Agriculture. As per Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife".

Importation refers to state to state or other countries to that state.

Just seeing if you were aware of this as well?

If this law had been followed then both sides would have been protected.

 

[robin d.]

I offered several times to send the animals to whomever wanted to find out what killed them. There has been too much money lost in this whole deal for me to want to waste anymore money on this deal.

IF that many animals perished while in my care,regardless of who they came from or long i had them you would be willing to bet i would send them off. why??????
lets just say they had something that would have been passed to the rest of your collection whether airborn, fecal or simple contact with another animal, it can be called cross contamination.you touch the animal, then touch another now maybe you washed your hands but what bout hooks or tongs, water bowls, your personal clothing..... even if they are in quarenteen, whatabout the bottom of your shoes????? with animals dropping like flies it would be hard to think all had RI and it could possibly be something

damn straight i would get a necropsy on every last one.

i mean apparantly if you have spent 15,000 with him you have the monitary resources to send them to a vet for either proper reptile care and/or a professional necropsy


seems like a buncha bull<font color=red>[bleep]</font> to me.... kevin it seems to me either you are lieing, full of <font color=red>[bleep]</font>, dont care about the animal,in it JUST for money (not the welfare) or all of the above.

might be a good idea to pack up camp and leave the venomoid business or even better reptiles in general, if you arent willing to take the proper care and medical assistance for them and possibly others that would have come into contact with them

blah improper husbandry ,quarenteen practices and blatant lack of effort just pisses me off

 

[snakegetters]

I must agree with Robin. If any animals perished mysteriously while under my care, particularly with the symptoms described, I would be sending blood samples to the University of Florida for OPMV testing and tissue samples to ZooPath. This in addition to taking the thing apart myself under my own microscope. I would not rest until the cause of death was known, because I care about the rest of my collection and I do not want to live in an infectious reptile plague house. If you have a potential epidemic under your roof, it is very foolish indeed not to be committed to positively identifying it and taking appropriate damage control measures.

Addressing the issue of apparently normal appearing animals showing drastic symptoms after shipment, this is quite plausible. Imported WC snakes may be quietly carrying a really brutal load of internal parasites, bacterial and/or fungal overgrowth and a number of viruses, some of which have not even been well studied or identified. These animals may appear reasonably normal prior to being subjected to an extreme stressor event (shipping with its potential temperature extremes and changes). After the stressor event their symptoms show up with a vengeance. But what you find in these animals on clinical exam is not much different than the findings on fresh imports that appear and behave fairly normally.

Some underlying pathology is almost certainly present in any imported wild caught snake. However there is no way to tell a snake that harbors, for instance, a potentially pathogenic virus from one that doesn't. Some types of PCR tests are possible, but prohibitively expensive and not even very accurate for snakes. Scientists aren't even quite sure which of the many viruses that are found in snakes are actually pathogenic; many are not and appear, like some types of bacterial, to be omnipresent. Snakes are generally rich in reoviruses, most of which are non pathogenic.

It is easier to diagnose parasites, but one clean fecal or even in some cases several clean fecals might have missed the presence of endoparasites in a stage of their life cycle where they are encysted in muscle tissue or established in the respiratory system. A tracheal wash is a procedure we do regularly, but it's not a procedure that many wholesalers can be expected to perform on venomous snakes. We also look at bloodwork to check for microfilarids, and we find them, too. However, testing for viruses is a whole other ballpark and is not something that even a vet clinic can do in-house without the resources of a major university or a hospital laboratory.

Sudden and drastic temperature changes have been documented to trigger viral outbreaks in previously normal and healthy appearing snakes. One or more viruses may have been present and inactive in these animals, expressing in a lethal active form only when the snakes were suddenly and drastically immunosuppressed by a stressor event. That is a fully plausible scenario assuming both people involved in the dispute are telling the truth and the symptoms were as described.

What a lot of people clearly do not understand is that the majority of imported African and Asian venomous snakes show multiple disease processes on clinical exam even when they do not have any visible symptoms. Some may be be fatal regardless of treatment and some may resolve without any treatment. But it is fairly safe to consider ANY imported snake to be a candidate for veterinary support care and thorough diagnostics. Snakes are cryptic in the veterinary sense, which means that they rarely show symptoms unless an illness has progressed to a fairly serious stage. So a snake can look and act remarkably healthy and actually be quite seriously ill.

I cannot have any real opinion on the specific events that were described on this thread because I never saw the snakes in question and I have no idea what happened to them in transit or at either facility. I will state that the photos I did see of dead specimens were in normal body condition for imported animals and were not emaciated. They certainly could have appeared normal and healthy, and they also could have died acutely with lethal viral symptoms shortly after being immunosuppressed by temperature changes during shipping. Or they might have been exposed to an environmental toxin or been given bad drug dosages. Any of these scenarios would fit the described symptoms.

Assuming the snakes did die of an underlying pathology (for instance, a viral load) that they originally contracted in Africa, who is at fault? That's a tough one to answer, because of two basic facts. Number one, if you buy imported WC snakes you are buying a lot of interesting pathologies. This is fine and dandy if you happen to be doing research into the specific veterinary issues of venomous species. This is not so good if you are a keeper looking to add a snake to your collection. But it is a fact, so please don't buy WC if you aren't prepared to deal with the consequences and to offer intensive veterinary support to these sick and stressed creatures.

Number two, when a wholesaler sells an imported snake that is in reasonable body condition, feeds in captivity and does not exhibit visible symptoms of illness, he is acting in good faith and issuing fair warning by stating honestly that this is a WC import animal. It is unfortunate that most people don't fully understand what "WC import animal" really means in a veterinary sense.

The animal may be essentially doomed by the time it touches ground in the United States. It may have massive internal damage from Kalicephalus and/or Rhabdias and/or pentastomids, to the point that deworming won't save it or reverse the damage already done. It may have paramyxovirus, or another nasty virus or two that hasn't even been named yet but will devastate your collection anyhow. But you aren't going to know any of that by looking at it. No one may know, except possibly a very good pathologist who can take apart the pieces after the animal dies from unknown causes.

Any WC import snake has been drastically stressed and immunosuppressed for an unknown length of time, and the pathogens it brought in from the wild are going to be having a major party inside of their host. Whether or not this is survivable depends largely on how long the party goes on, and also on what pathogens are present. A fair number of WC import snakes are already in non survivable condition even WITH veterinary support care by the time they touch ground, whether they are showing it or not. Those are the breaks when you buy WC imports. If you don't like them, don't buy them. Most importantly, if you aren't prepared to give good veterinary support care, don't buy them.

 

[herpetological]

Very good points Tanith..

Keep in mind however, that there are a few importers that conduct "in house" exams and can provide reasonably healthy specimens.(I say reasonably because it's very expensive to go through the entire regime of tests and treatments to say an import is 100% clean and healthy) Caution is always the key when working with imports. Some dealers sell straight "out of the bag". I've even seen shipments that were never opened go right back out after they were cleared. It's a matter of knowing who you are dealing with and wether they will be honest about the specimens. On some species imports are a neccesary evil so to speak. At least until a viable gene pool is established in captive collections. ALWAYS buy C.B. when available. As you pointed out...if you don't have the necessary background or veterinary assitance do not buy imports.

 

[COBRAMAN]

Even I would agree with both Ray Goushaw and Tanith on that. I am an importer/wholesaler, but given the chance, I would personally buy a c.b. animal over a fresh imported one. This is also one of the reasons you pay less for imports vs c.b.

 

[snakegetters]

Re: Very good points Tanith..

Keep in mind however, that there are a few importers that conduct "in house" exams and can provide reasonably healthy specimens.(I say reasonably because it's very expensive to go through the entire regime of tests and treatments to say an import is 100% clean and healthy)

A really complete battery of tests to clear a snake runs me about $300, and that's at wholesale rates. That's assuming I want to do a complete head to tail physical exam in the clinic with x-rays, run a complete panel of bloodwork to establish baseline data and get OPMV titer. I don't expect any import houses are doing that, and I don't even do all of that most of the time. Here are the basic procedures I use to clear a snake when there is zero budget to do it with. Material cost is about a dollar.

1. Cloacal wash if no fresh fecal sample available; fecal flotation and fecal direct smear on slides.
2. Tracheal wash; examine at 100X for Rhabdias and pentastomes, at 400X for bacteria
3. Complete physical exam and gentle head to tail palpation. May or may not be under anesthesia; depends on the patient's stress level.
4. Basic cytology and/or hematology, if anything looks suspicious (lesions, lumps, etc). I'm still learning how to stain slides properly and identify what I see there.

Someday I will be able to add endoscopic exam to this list. Still saving up for the endoscope though.

Obviously when parasites are found, they are properly identified and treated with the appropriate medication. Note that I say "when" and not "if". WC snakes have parasites, period. Ask me sometime why endoparasites seem to co-exist in wild caught snakes and cause problems in captives, if you are in the mood for a very long talk on the subject. LOL

All of that stuff, a good import house (or any hobbyist really) can theoretically do. Some of the importers actually do some of these things, but they are missing one very important piece of the puzzle, which is to say a good microscope. I don't know why, as a usable one can be found for about $100. Far as I know, and please correct me if I'm wrong, none of the importers actually have one of these useful toys. Anyhow without a 'scope, what the import houses do is shotgun the snakes with some antiparasitical medication that may or may not be the right choice. Also unless they have a good digital scale, a mg/kg dose is hard to administer so they do things like dump a bottle of Flagyl in the water and hope each snake drinks enough (but not too much). Some of the import houses try harder than others though.

Caution is always the key when working with imports. Some dealers sell straight "out of the bag". I've even seen shipments that were never opened go right back out after they were cleared.

Yikes. Snakes really need to be hydrated and treated immediately on landing.

On some species imports are a neccesary evil so to speak. At least until a viable gene pool is established in captive collections.

Shut down the importation of some of these species completely, and watch how fast the captive breeding efforts start happening. Right now it's a matter of supply and demand; nobody wants to buy CB as long as cheapie WC's are available.

 

[COBRAMAN]

WE FINALLY GOT THE ANSWER!!!!

Jerry, we finally got the answer to the one single question Kevin Smith would not answer. :

"Kevin, Again I put to you....
DO YOU, or HAVE YOU PERFORMED YOUR OWN VENOMOID SURGERIES?"

Guys, I am not trying to re-start a bunch of B.S. with this, rather just providing the answer to the question so many have asked, but were ignored by Kevin.

Here is a set of e-mails that should answer this question. It kind of helps to start at the first e-mail which is at the bottom, and work your way in the propper sequence. Notice how it sounds like Kevin hired a P.R. guy?:

"Yeah...I was glad to hear he has gotten better...he actually got a lot of experience from roadkill! He collected up snakes that died from street casualties, of various species, and hacked away at them in order to learn more about them and their workings. His mortality rate now is very low, and only about 1-2% at most die after the surgury from related complications...pretty good for snakes which are now always CB or well aclaimated for captivity.

Kevin has learned a lot from Rich, who has also gotten a lot better! I know 2 men who are vets in NY (licensed vets) as well, and they are amazingly good with the procedure...they do just as well as hots if not better!

Also, I got the photos from Rick...thanks a ton!

We will be doing business in the future, as I am thrilled by your service!

Take it easy,
Steve Clark"

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 4:36am, Ray Hunter wrote:
>You will need to get with Ricky for the pics. I will forward a copy of this
to him for you. The rest of your last e-mail sounds like a paid political
advertisement for Kevin's shady venomoid practice to me, but for the sake of
the poor animals, I hope the procedure went as well as he claimed. From all
I have heard, that is certainly a first for him. If he really is getting
better at this, perhaps he should quit the Burger Bin, and become a real
vet, if for no other reason, than to make what he does legal. I will be
happy to share your last e-mail with the rest of the concerned herping
community, so they will not be as hostile towards him about his practice. It
is good to know that he has finally incorporated the use of pain meds and
antibiotics in his work (presumably obtained legally).
Please Call 772-215-7625 if I can help you, or answer any questions you
have.

Be Blessed!
Ray Hunter
(772) 215-7625







----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: Please reply...my other email is down..msg from Steve Clark


Please send me the pix of the rhinos again...can't find them! We had a
problem where I didn't have an airbill and they sat in the airport for 2
days, but Kevin said they are all fine and eating rat pups already. He said
he had bad transactions with you guys in the past, but he said he doesn't
know if it was an isolated issue, as these snakes are "bangin" in quality
and health. I'll have them back as venomoids saturday, they handled surgury
well and are all feeding again! Damn good procedure when 12 of 12 survive
flawlessly! I just need to keep them on their antibiotics (gotta keep them
clean and uninfected) and they will be fine! Ironically I just had my
wisdom teeth removed...I would imagine the pain and recovery is
similar...not bad! The little rhinos got better pain killers than me
though! They get lidocaine hcl, and I got tylenol!


Steve

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:11am, Ray Hunter wrote:
>Steve, I can not get through on that number either. You need to call me
before we ship. Ricky got the money, but we need to talk to you before we
ship. I am pasting a copy of the last e-mail I sent to your other e-mail
address.
>
>
>Steve, I have left you numerous phone messages, and sent you several
e-mails in reference to your order for rhino vipers from Ricky Duffield at
Exotic Reptiles Jungle. All of my efforts over the past three days have gone
unanswered by you. I spoke with Ricky today, and he is willing to go through
with the shipment to Smith in OR, but there will be no 'arrive alive'
guarantee if the animals are shipped to Mr. Smith. I have already outlined
the reason for this on one of the many messages I left on your answering
machine. If you opt to have the snake sent directly to you in PA, then we
will resume our guarantee, at which time you can forward them to Smith if
you chose, but at your own risk, and not ours. Mr. Smith has a reputation
(with many shippers, not just us) of questionable claims of DOA's, so I will
not ship any animals to him. I also have a problem with his qualifications
(or lack of) to legally and properly perform venomoid surgery on venomous
snakes. I think that Ricky was unaware of your intentions to have the snakes
you purchased shipped to Kevin Smith until after you sent your payment, so
he is willing to ship, but there will be no live arrival guarantee if the
animals are shipped to Kevin Smith. >Please Call 772-215-7625 if I can help
you, or answer any questions you have.
>
>Be Blessed!
>Ray Hunter
>(772) 215-7625 >
>Please Call 772-215-7625 if I can help you, or answer any questions you
have.
>
>Be Blessed!
>Ray Hunter
>(772) 215-7625 >
>
>
>
>
>
> >----- Original Message ----- >From: [email protected] >To:
[email protected] >Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 11:09 PM
>Subject: Please reply...my other email is down..msg from Steve Clark
>
>Ehh! I just wanted to check in and see if you got my money order for the
Rhino vipers yet...my other email is dead as it is built into my cell phone
which also is dead...I wont have a replacement for nearly 2 weeks, so if you
can contact me this email is fine, or you may call. My home phone number is
610 375 4297. I just need to know the airbill number and everything as well
as when to expect what to arrive so I can warn Kevin to keep an eye open for
the snakes to arrive.
>
>
>thanks
>
>Steve Clark
>TurtsAndTorts Captive Bred Exotics
>[email protected]

 

[crickets_house]

can't take Steves word

Look up Steve Clarks name. You will see that you can not trust his word.
I delt with him in the past and I can say that he spits more lies then anyone I have ever met.
It took several months and a visit from the FBI to get Steve to be honest with me.
I'm not defending Kevin... I just want everyone to know what a crooked bastard Steve is.

 

[newherper]

Re: Okay

Now that Ray has successfully turned it to a venomoid issue, which if you read my post above, I forewarned that was the intentions, I sell venomoids, YES, but now I am the bad guy because of that and it no longer matters what I say, I am simply the bad guy and Ray Hunter is the great guy. Even though he has lied on this forum over and over again, I don't expect you to believe only me, because it is his word against mine. But that is okay, because I have:
3 gabbies
1 mozambique(actually I threw it out)
1 redneck spitter
2 egyptians(1 baby, 1 subadult)

All in the freezer. I will take pictures and weights, plus I will have others come over at look at the conditions of the animals. And if there is anyone that would like to have them to test for exactly what kind of illness these guys were suffering from besides the supposed 8 weeks of neglect, they are free to do so. We have done alot of business with Ray and have had this problem before, but were compensated for the most part. I have also talked to others that are going through the same problems, hopefully they will post on here also, but realize that if they don't, not everyone is willing to take the heat that they get for posting a bad experience. NONE OF THE SNAKES WERE ALTERED, ALL ARE FULLY INTACT, THERE WAS NOTHING DONE TO THE SNAKES BESIDES SETTING THEM UP IN WARM CAGES WITH WATER BOWLS. I know that this is simply one word against the other, but that DOESN'T EXPLAIN A GABBY GOING INTO SEIZURES AND DYING AND THAT DOES NOT EXPLAIN THE POOR CONDITIONS IN WHICH THE SNAKES CAME IN, OR THE FACT THAT SO MANY SNAKES HAVE DIED FROM THE TIME THAT THEY CAME IN. So everyone feel free to jump on my ass about dealing with venomoids, because that is the real issue, right? Not the fact that we were lied to, half the snakes died that Ray sent, and that they were in extremely poor condtion? I simply posted my experience with these guys, we have dealt with them alot, and have lost some snakes from them in this way, but never to this extent and never have not been compensated. You can bet, that if I sold this many snakes to one of you and they started dropping like flies like this, every one of you would be posting me on here, so why the hell do you have such a problem with me posting about MY EXPERIENCE. It is kind of funny, people bitch on here about crummy importers,sick snakes,and then you are so quick to jump on someone else when they post a bad experience. I said before, if you people that are "good" buddies with Ray want to buy from the guys, go ahead, but don't shoot me down for posting MY BAD EXPERIENCE WITH THEM. It is done and over with, I posted MY EXPERIENCE with them, and I made the mistake and will NEVER DEAL WITH THEM AGAIN. I will go to Exotic Jungle, glades,strictly, or some other company that I know for a fact sell good animals. My point of posting this wasn't to magically get my money back, it was simply to warn everyone about my experience with Ray. I am not going to reply except to post pictures and info about the animals that died. I am not going to sit here and have an arguement about venomoids or anything else that DOESN't have to do with the sick animals that Ray sent. Oh yeah, YOU'RE RIGHT, I AM WRONG FOR NOT CALLING THEM WITHIN THE 24HOURS, BUT THAT IS PRETTY SHADY TO SEND OUT ANIMALS IN THIS CONDITION AND THEN HIDE BEHIND THAT POLICY. I HAVE NEVER KNOWN RESPECTABLE DEALER THAT WOULD NOT TAKE CARE OF A PROBLEM LIKE THIS. BUT THEN AGAIN, I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANOTHER DEALER THAT WOULD SEND OUT THE GARBAGE ANIMALS THAT THESE GUYS WOULD.
KEvin Smith

its weird to me how you wont tell anyone who did the surgeries(if you did,i apologize,i didnt read the whole thread,just skimmed it).BTW,no animal is garbage!if thats the way you feel you should stay out of herp keeping!

 

[snakegetters]

Re: Ray...

Originally posted by oreganus As far as the dosage thing, different animals take different dosages. Or in more easier to understand terms, different species take different dosages. There is no single dosage for every animal of the same size, different species have different reactions. There is alot more to the whole thing than a straight scale of dosages per weight.

Read this statement carefully. The context here is dosing antibiotics and other drugs in venomous snakes. Kevin is explaining how he can give drug doses to animals without using a scale to get their correct body weight. You can find the complete context if you want to read all the way through the thread.

This is complete and utter horse manure. There are no known species differences in the venomous snakes in terms of antibiotic dosages or really any other drugs. The primary species specific drug tolerance example for venomous snakes in the veterinary literature refers to Uracoan rattlesnakes reacting poorly to Ivermectin, as published by Elliot Jacobson.

There *is* a single correct drug dosage range for every venomous snake of the same size, assuming their underlying condition is also the same. It is absolute bull-bleep to suggest that a monocled cobra takes such and such a dose, and a Western diamondback needs a different dose. It just doesn't work that way.

Individual cases can vary consideably, so it's important to titrate accurately to effect. Variables that do come into play are the body weight of the snake (absolutely critical for correct dosing of non inhalant drugs), the underlying pathology, and the POTZ (preferred optimum temperature zone) of the species. But species isn't a factor.

In short the paragraph above is a total snow job. Bull-bleep. Made up garbage. Ask your own veterinarian for confirmation.