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ExoticsRUs Killed my snake and expect me to pay for it... **PICS** PLEASE READ!BEWARE

Those pictures were just heartbreaking. That poor animal. I would have been hot, too if I had received that package. I am glad the shipping will be updated and I am glad that the parties involved seem to be working this out. Too bad there is no second chance for that gorgeous snake.

I have received many shipments over the past several years and
98% of them came off without a hitch. One is a testament to the
hardiness of the bearded dragon. I had one shipped from FL to VA, it was an adult male with 1/2 front leg and 1/2 tail. I was so shocked when I opened the box (about the same size as the one in the pics) and there he was. I MEAN there he was, just opened the box thankfully without a sharp instrument and he was looking up at me like "what the _ _ _ _ is going on" - nothing in the box but a beardie. He was fine.

I realize that this is another shipper that we are discussing but I had to share.

Ann McCabe Miles
 
After rereading my post I get the impression that some might think I was okay with that shipping because the beardie survived. I was not. I was very unhappy with the packing, just glad the beardie made it alive and it did because it was OVERNIGHT shipping.

I still can't get over that face looking up at me.

The other unfortunate incident was a couple of adult leopard gecko's also from south fl - different establishment - the geckos were well packed with the exception of the HEAT PACKS that were placed inside the insulated box and were touching the containers which held the geckos. The pacs were not taped to the lid of the box and the poor things cooked. It was gross. I was reimbursed without question so I have no beef with the peeps, they seemed genuinely upset about the situation. This was one of
those rare times that overnight shipping did not help the poor animal.

Just plain stupid people.

Ann McCabe Miles
 
I feel bad for Charlette & Ray, but mostly I feel bad for that snake

Ray Hunter:

"As Wayne stated, it is speculation that the snake died from the packing, not factal. Unlike some, I can not play God and pass judgement."

Ray,
You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to come to the conclusion that the packing played a MAJOR role in this animal's death. Is it a fact, of course not. However, given the circumstances it is a reasonable conclusion to arrive at. I don't think the majority of those who've posted have been passing judgement on you, just stating their opinions. I'm glad that you reached an agreement with the buyer, are making some changes and moving on. But as a fellow Christian (I'm making the assumption you are from your posts) I think you could have been a little more humble and shouldered more of the responsibility here. And for those few who have been excessively harsh and are passing judgement, so what? Don't stoop to their level. Remember, this is a site full of snake lovers, so of course some people got mad when they saw how that beautiful creature was packed. There's simply no excuse for the way that snake was packed. I know you feel bad, but I think alot of other people do to looking at those pictures. I think Rich Z. made a very valid point when he posted:

"If you ship via Airborne, and the package gets to the destination when it is supposed to, but the animals are dead inside (especially an adult!), there is no one to blame but the packer of the box."

Not trying to poor salt on an open wound or anything. I just think you could have handled this whole situation better. Hey, we all make mistakes. I do applaud you for reaching a resolution with the customer and wish you nothing but success in the future.

God bless,
Phil Frost
ZNJ EXotics
:)
 
Thank you Phil, Very good advice. It was just getting very old already. I could see if I were not making good on it. I assumed responsibility a long time ago for the packing problem and have made the appropriate changes. I guess I just have to let everyone that visits this site get thier shots in and get it out of thier system. As I wrote before, we have never had this happen before (at least not in the past year I have been running the warehouse) which is why I started the first thread asking for advise from some of you that have more experience in shipping. I welcome advice (and even asked for it) but to have EVERY single poster saying the exact same thing dispite the fact that I am taking responsibility for our error, and some acting like I am the Ted Bundy of the snake world over my first (and hopefully last) error is a little much. If your child makes a mistake, and makes good on it and changes his ways, do you continue to harp on him for days on end??? Maybe in this world, but certainy not in the Christian relm. Both she and I have been through enough from this mistake, I did not think some of the responses were designed to be constructive, instead some were designed to be like childish name calling without any reason. I don't use this expression anymore, but you have no doubt heard " the more you stir ____, the worse it stinks". And that is what I felt was going on. So I do appologize for lowering my standards to that level.

I thank you for your remarks and spiritual checkng. I will follow your advice.

Be Blessed
Ray Hunter
 
Nice talkin' to another Christian herper

Ray,
I certainly agree with you that some of the responses were meant to be anything BUT constructive. In my opinion you are a far cry from Ted Bundy. Just the simple fact that you've learned from your mistake, taken care of the problem as best you can, and are able to take constructive criticism speaks to your character. Good luck with your business.

God bless,
Phil Frost
ZNJ Exotics
 
IF airborne does kill the animal, should the shipper always just refund the money without having the ability to get it back from the shipping service???
Click to expand...

YES, People do not order and pay for dead animals. As the buyer I am purchasing a live animal from you. I sent you my money, now it is your responsibility to send me a live animal, and it is your responsibility to make sure it arrives to me alive. If the animal arrives dead (on time or delayed) and I as the buyer was in no way responsible (was there to accept the package on the first attempt delivery, didn't let it sit at the station over night etc.) you owe me a complete refund. NO EXCEPTIONS. If you are going to guarantee live arrival only if using a certain carrier then you should not use any other carrier, even if the customer requests it. Its not enough to say " I wanted to send it delta but the customer wanted it cheaper so I used a different carrier so I am not responsible for the animal being dead" Tough cookies, you are responsible. If you are not prepared to offer a live arrival guarantee with a particular carrier then you should not use that carrier. If the buyer tells you to use a different carrier than you normally would, and then tells you they will not hold you to a live arrival guarantee, that is different. That is part of the negotiated sale, but you had better have it in writting.

Steve Schindler
 
UPS will ship reptiles, knowing that reptiles are in the box. ;) I shipped a boa through them just last week. I paid for overnight service. They said it would be there by 10:30 am and it showed up on the girls doorstep in perfect condition at 10:15 am. I don't know how you feel about UPS but that may be another option for you if you aren't going to be using Airborne Express any longer.
 
Sybella said:
UPS will ship reptiles, knowing that reptiles are in the box. ;) I shipped a boa through them just last week.
Click to expand...

UPS, USPS, FedEx, Airborne Express....

They all state they do not ship snakes, but in many locations they are rather lax in their enforcement. To the best of my knowledge, the only way snakes are allowed to be shipped is via the airlines (with proper documentation).
 
Sybella, Airborne Express has opened shipments from us and returned them because of snakes (then threatened to close our account), FedEx went a step further by sending a rep by to tell me they will no longer take ANY type of reptile, same with UPS. So it is a problem. jlepsch is correct in his post.
Blessings
Ray Hunter
 
Well not that it really matters with that shipment but Airborne's rules state they will ONLY ship Tortsoises, USPS will ship reptiles but NO snakes, UPS will ship Lizards, and other reptiles But no snakes but you MUST have an approved account with them. Delta will ship snakes but you must be a authorized known shipper. US Air will ship Snakes and all other non-venomous reptiles. I used Airborne for many years and they do not have a god track record for delivering perishables which is why we went solely with UPS. All of our shipments are labeled with LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES. When you set up your account with UPS you can discuss it with your representative that will come check out your facility and verify how you package animals and can give you a waiver for shipping snakes even though it is against their policy. If you have problems with UPS accepting LIve Reptiles than you need to print out their rules which clearly state they will accept Live Lizards and such and discuss it with a supervisor. Most of the flunkies that work for them have no clue that they do ship Reptiles.
 
I am glad that this was a learning experiance and yes it is sad that the snake suffered for it (*slap on ray's hand*) but he didn't set out to harm the snake so I can't be too mad at him (no maliscous intent more of a negligence thing, as I gather from my extended legal knowledge gained from many nights watching Law and Order and NYPD Blue)

But to turn this into more of a constructive thread perhaps others who have shipped snakes before can offer advice to those of us who may find ourselves shipping snakes in the future. I am no breeder but may ship a snake or two in the future for some reason or other and I don't really know what would work best.

So please enlighten us...

thanks
(and I am pleasently pleased to see a seller owning up to his short comings and taking the effort to correct the situation, that does not happen often as many of us have read in other threads)
 
Shipping

Well, I was going to wait this out but, I have to make a few statements at this point. I've known Ray for years and have been actively involved in both business and herp societies with him. He's not new to the husbandry side. I know he would not deliberately make this kind of mistake. However, it's done, he apologized and humbly accepted his wounds and would like to get past this. I've been shipping for years and on occasion I have had carrier errors. Yes, a better packing job may have saved the snakes life...Even good people make mistakes...I'm sure it will not happen again. Enough. Next..and this has nothing to do with Ray... the shipping issue...We use UPS or Delta. We have used UPS for years and have a letter on file with them. The local office arranges their pickups on their last run before going back to the facility. This way the animals are not in a hot/cold truck for hours. They also are careful where the animals are placed while waiting at the Facility for transfer. We do ship snakes and have had very few problems. (I tried Airborne and wasn't happy..we'll leave it at that.) We also, get lizards and turtles thru express mail. The local post office calls us when they arrive. This way again they are not on the truck. Delta will often place a box inside if we are not able to pick up right away.Communication with the employee's of the
company you use to ship can go a long way. Sometimes you have to educate them. Well this is going off subject so we will leave it. Thanks Ray Goushaw HBR
 
We do have it in writing, Steve, But thank you for your opinion.
Click to expand...

You either misunderstood what I wrote, or made the choice to turn it around. When I said get it in writing I was refering to a customer agreeing to not hold you responsible for live arrival if they insist on you shipping through a carrier that you would normally not use. I know your guarantee is in writting, that I why I would never buy anything from you. It doesn't have anything at all to do with you personally, your animals, or the way you do business other than the fact that you will not guarantee live arrival with carriers other than delta, and the fact that you will still use those carriers.

Steve Schindler
 
BTW, Steve, You must not have read my ststement where I clearly stated that I will NOT use those services such as Airborne Express etc.

Your point is well taken, lets move on.
Ray Hunter
 
Ray, it is really great the way you have attacked people in this thread. There is nothing better than a poor attitude to showcase yourself. I really could care a less about the debate over carriers even though I have shipped hundreds of packages via FedEx to every part of the USA and have been extremely happy with the price and service they offer. The fact is that nobody who cares about the health of an animal and the satisfaction of their customer would pack and ship a snake the way you did. Delta would not allow you to ship that way. It violates government regulations. So if you would have to use a styro to ship through the airlines why wouldn't you use one to ship via any other carrier? I have received hundreds of shipments over the past several years and have had almost no fatalities when styros were used regardless of temp or species. I have gotten two shipments this year that were sent like yours and had sick and dead animals in them.
 
I went through this

I had a simular experiane with death when dealing with ERJ. Even though the packaged was shipped through the AIRLINES. I ended up with one dead snake and decided to call and tell him. I was told then sure I can get a refund. After sending pics he told me that he didnt think it was the snake he shipped because of some shed... That the snake was perfect and "refused me the refund". I did get him to give me credit, though so obviously it was. I took what I could get and got another box full of DEAD and half DEAD animals, there were approx 20 snakes of wich i shortly over the course of a couple weeks lost. I refuse to complain anymore, and dont care much for the refund or replacement. As long as I dont have to deal with junk anymore.

-Shaun DeBord
 
Shaun, nice try. The snake pic you sent was not even close to the pics we took of the snake we sent you. When we told you this you offered no defence of argument. You never reported any of the cooks boas I sent you (that you asked for) as DOA, if you did, I would have given you a refund. But nice try.

Listen guys, I am through with this thread. If you have any CONSTRUCTIVE remarks that you want me to read, feel free to e-mail them to me or call me. Otherwise, enjoy your bashing party, I'm over this silliness.
Be Blessed
Ray Hunter
 
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