Feedback on Starlight Specialties, Laura V.

[Golden Gate Geckos]

My turn to rant...

I usually do not get involved in these 'roasts', but I refuse to jump on the band-wagon to crucify another breeder for the crime of using poor judgment! Quite frankly, I feel that both parties in this particular incident have been exemplary in resolving this situation with respect and diplomacy. I have not seen, heard, or read one word of profanity or otherwise unprofessional behavior from either of them, and they are the ones with the issue!

Although I don't know Laura personally, I have done business with her on two occasions... once as the seller, and once as the buyer. With both transactions I have found her to be up-front, very reasonable to deal with, and a very caring herper. We have discussed many herp related topics via email, and I have NEVER heard her bad-mouth anyone! On the contrary, she seemed to be more of a "benefit of the doubt" type.

I happen to know exactly what happened with that "poor little beginner boy that Laura screwed over" scenario that a few of you have burned Laura at the stake over. That kid emailed ME at least 5 times a day and phoned me daily (not to mention posting on the KS Forum a dozen times a day for a couple of weeks) and did not even call Laura about this, and he didn't even PAY for those geckos! He did not take a single word of advise from anyone, and I am totally surprised that those 3 little babies even survived because of his constant, paranoid pestering of them! No wonder they wouldn't eat. Laura had no idea this was going on until it was brought to her attention to read all the posts.

This kind of negative publicity could happen to any of us!!! God forbid I would ever unknowingly sell a gecko that had any type of parasitic infection and have my years of hard work and responsible breeding success get flushed down toilet by someone who posted about it before at least trying to resolve it with me first!!! Every single one of us has had an example or two of poor judgment in this small world of herping, and could easily have had to pay the price of being thrown in to a virtual 'serpent's den' as a result.

I think many would be surprised to know that I have had some legitimate nightmares with leos purchased from two of the most reputable and successful "high profile" breeders in the world! One female I got from an extremely popular breeder of SHTCT's had such severe MBD that her jaw snapped broken at the touch of my pinkie fingernail trying to get her to accept an eye-dropper of hydro-life. Another from the same breeder arrived with such a severe eye deformity I called him immediately only to hear, "I didn't even notice." To top that, I received an awesome reverse stripe albino male (from a VERY famous breeder) who had more than half of his toes missing, which was never disclosed to me. I could have handled it differently than dealing directly with those breeders, but chose to keep it between ourselves.

So, what does this mean? It means that unless we ourselves are perfect breeders and have perfect reptiles that eat perfect feeders, and always keep every herp we have ever purchased for the rest of it's life, we are only one forum post away from being judged along with the real criminals who commit fraud, steal, and rip-off people that are exposed on this forum. I'm sure many of you readers will never do business with Starlight Specialties as a result of this thread, but I am quite sure that Laura will NEVER use poor judgment in giving away another sick leo that might have a better chance of survival with someone else.

Geeze, people! I am not a friend of Laura's at all, but I feel she has done MORE to make this situation right than either of the 'walks on water' breeders did for me, and I even PAID for those geckos!

Thanks for letting me rant. Kinda out of character for me, huh?

 

[Glenn Bartley]

This thread caught my eye because I did an inquiry on the same person last year. I don't even remember what I had been interested in buying, and did not wind up buy anything from her. Nonetheless, this caught my eye because my thread showed up right under it today. As I read on I realized a couple of things: No Laura's husbandry is not perfect, but then I challenge anyone here to show me the PERFECT husbandry that they perform - or in one poster's case the absolute perfect everything that I get the idea he/she believes he/she performs (this person shall remain nameless here but I'll bet that person can guess I mean him or is it her) . Oh well, I wish I was perfect too just like Cotton Mather… .

As to the original questions, and allow me to quote some of them:

I would just like to know if this is one of those things that can happen with anyone or if this is something common to this breeder. I ask because there is another reptile she has I am interested in and this really throws up the red flag.

I thought this was the crux of the inquiry. I wonder, was the answer satisfactory to Shannon? I don't think anyone, at least not many, really addressed this issue - the one about whether or not this was the type of thing that could happen to anyone's animals or if this was something specific to this particular breeder. If it was the issue that was addressed then I missed it. I will address it: Yes anyone's animals can become parasitized. Yes any herp (or just about any) can get hookworm. According to Roger J. Klingenberg in Understanding Reptile Parasites, Hookworms are not very picky about the type of reptile they infest. They also find easy access to reptiles through contaminated food or water, or directly through the skin in larval form. You could probably transmit Hookworm to your animals by picking up eggs or larvae (unknown to you) when taking an animal out of an enclosure at let's say a herp show, or a pet shop, or at another person's home; and then picking up your animal or tending to its enclosure. (And no a hand washing does not always prevent this but it goes a long way to helping prevent it.) If you kept you animals and their enclosures really clean, after infection, then I hypothesize that the load of Hookworms would possibly buildup slowly, or maybe not even reinfest your animal - but if you observe average to very good herp care techniques then it is possible that a Hookworm infestation would grow rapidly in an animal.

Besides not really discussing Hookworm biology, no one herein this thread, if I recall correctly, ever questioned Shannon to see how long it was before she took the fecal sample to the vet. No one asked to see the vet's report. No one asked if the vet recommended fecals for all the other Leo's in Shannon's care, or if the vet recommended shotgun treatments. Did anyone wonder why if Shannon was so freaked out (and I believe she in essence expressed this was how she felt) why she did not have her whole collection checked out! (Shannon - no need to answer this one as it is rhetorical, and not a question really directed at you at all.) Was she being irresponsible? No one ranted against her that she should give all her animals up because she did not immediately take them all to the vet for check-ups, but in essence I think someone suggested that about Laura. No, Shannon was being a reasonable and pragmatic herper as I see it, just as was Laura!

Some of you immediately condemned Laura for giving away a Leo that had a problem. Plenty of people do that but I will agree that maybe to ship it was not the greatest idea. Then again, if you recall, there seems to be a 10 gram weight discrepancy between what Laura thought it had weighed and what Shannon said it weighed. Ten grams in an animal that size is a big deal. This again begs the question, how long was it before the sample was sent in for the fecal? (Shannon you don't have to answer this it is rhetorical, and not a question so much for you as a question that others should have asked in order to be fair minded, and not on a witch hunt). The people, who in my mind, should have been faulted by all of you using your own logic were more than just Laura. If anyone was at fault, then by the logic of many of Laura's naysayers herein this post, Shannon was just as guilty as was Laura for any problems with this animal due to the stress of shipping it. The animal was described as sick (yeast infection or hookworm does not matter) and there was an additional warning, in essence, that 'if the animal survives' or something like that... You get what you ask for and if you don't want it then don't ask for it. Yet Shannon agreed to take it. I am not condemning either of these people. It is easy to make mistakes, and it should be easy to be fair minded and see both sides for the msitakes made at least in this one regard. Yet it was roast Laura time, wasn't it.

Some suggested that Laura give away all her animals because she has been stuck at work and could not get to the vet until after a wait of some weeks. Well to me it did not sound as if her other animals were dying off, or even becoming emaciated in that period. So what was the hurry. Was the hurry a vet report about one animal she had owned that had been showing signs of illness while others were not, one animal that had hookworms. While that may be a concern, that would certainly not necessitate an emergency fecal of everyone of her animals at the vet. Anyone who even suggests that a fecal was needed for all the animals by a vet or otherwise that Laura should give up her animals is rather a whacko in my opinion. Maybe you have the silver spoon in your mouth, or maybe golden eggs drop out of another of your orifices (you pick it), but to think that someone should do such because one animal was ill and virtually no others showed symptoms is rather ludicrous. Heck I have even kept myself from seeing a doctor due to work. We, who do not produce golden eggs or suck silver spoons, and who need to work, realize that it is our going to work that ultimately pays the doctor or veterinarian bills.

Now let me back up for a minute: As for all the stuff about what the Leo was thin from, it amazes me that no one ever asked Shannon for some proof of her claims as to what Laura had in her ad, and as to what Laura emailed to her. It came down to a she said/she said kind of a thing. As a matter of fact, where is the vet's report? Where are pics of the sick "skeleton" Leo? Now I am not saying I doubt Shannon, but I am investigative by nature (hell its been my job for over 24 years), and what I am concerned with here is this: Why did no one ask for those proofs. Why did many of the people here just choose to believe that Shannon was telling it like it was - but that Laura had sinister motives?

This was witch hunt plain and simple - maybe not started as one -but it certainly boiled down to that. In the end, as far as Shannon and Laura were concerned, it seems to me that Laura did the right thing by sending $100 to Shannon for vet bills. Of course, in someone else's eyes, that too was just rotten old Laura up to her no good scheming - isn't that basically what someone suggested. Give it a break, stop flaming like a 12 year old (or are you 12 - if so my apologies I understand it could be the raging hormones or just plain inmaturity). Many people are called to task here on the BOI but not many give such well thought out replies as did Laura, without ranting themselves, and fewer by far ever reach into their pocket for cash for vet bills. Hell this animal was given as a freebie and was proclaimed as ill before it was given away.

Finally there was the thing about Laura buying animals from one person and then reselling them to others. Now I am not too sure this had to do with anything in the original question, but I guess it could be some sort of a stretch toward whether or not Laura is ethical. Well wait just a darned minute - once you sell an animal to someone what right at all do you have to say what they do with it unless you, under contract, made an agreement with them not to resell. It is really none of your business what someone does with an animal they buy from you once they paid for it, and it is possibly unethical for you to question their reselling it. It is now their animal - they paid for it and you sold it. Your rights to the animal have be nullified by the sale. Now is there something wrong with reselling amnimals, I think not. For example: I buy animals for resale every year, do you believe for a moment that when I purchase 10 Bearded Dragons or 20 ball Pythons, or 15 African House Snakes that I would keep them myself. I pay, in part, for my hobby by reselling some of what I buy. Even if I buy one animal, and then decide a day later to resell it, what concern is it of yours what I decided to do with MY animal? That is one of the main reasons the herp trade and herp hobby are so darned prolific - people constantly buy and sell at all levels. Now it may concern a dealer/breeder that the buyer of an animal turns around and resells it to someone as being the stock of the original dealer/breeder. That concern is not the same concern regarding the act of simply reselling the animal - is it! Using the dealer/breeder's name to sell it can mean they owe the dealer/breeder recompense for using a trademark of the dealer/breeder. On the other hand, simply reselling the animal means they owe you bubkas!

I don't mind using the BOI for inquiries or for posting good guy or bad guy posts. I think it is great. I get really into some of the threads, and get heated up sometimes, as do many of us. When I get heated up I still try my best to remain factual, and to look for the facts. Then again sometimes I cannot believe what goes on here. The out and out, in my opinion, low down crap in the form of witch hunts, that takes place here on the BOI absolutely amazes me. In all honesty this certainly has been one of those times.

All the best,
Glenn B

 

[Glenn Bartley]

By the way, I agree with a lot of Marcia's rant, it was right on the money.

 

[Wilomn]

Glenn, I think that with two threads running concurrently about the same person maybe you haven't seen that Marcia's post seems to be the general consensus, at least as far as I can tell.

It may be that not everyone agrees 100% but how often does that evey happen anyway.

I think no one asked for proof of the gecko's state or vet reports, at least I didn't, because it was never in question that it was skinny and not in the best of shape. While the hookworms came as a surprise to Shannon I think they did to Laura as well but while surprised it was not shocking. Since Larua never denied the presence of the hookworms I accepted Shannon's vet's dianosis.

There really wasn't any need for all the proof I normally would ask for because both involved parties were on the same page as far as what was wrong, or so it seemed to me.

The only hinky feeling I got about her selling animals that she didn't have or quickly after she got them is I sort of got the feeling she got a better than normal deal because the seller thought she was keeping the animals to breed them herself but, as there was no proof there really wasn't much to say about it. Once you get an animal, no matter the deal you get it for, it's yours to sell or keep as you see fit. I don't think there is any question of that here. We have all be down the road of "oh I really want to breed those, can't you make me some sort of deal so I can?" and it sucks to see someone selling something you just made them a great deal on because they wanted to breed it. I'm not saying that's what happened here Laura, just trying to put into words the feel I got from the threads.

I don't recall if it was this thread or the other one but, I think it's time now to let Laura prove for herself what kind of animals she has and what kind of person she is.

If she had something I wanted I'd buy from her, either of them actually, Shannon or Laura. For now.

Wes Pollock

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Wes,

There were at least 7 different people who gave responses in the first 4 pages of this thread alone who slammed Laura without any proof of anything; and there were more after that and some were outright nasty in a prissy sought of manner. Therefor I don't understand how Marcia's post can be the general consensus unless I totally misunderstood what Marcia wrote.

This thread has been akin to a witch hunt plain and simple, and I wrote my original thoughts on that without having first read Marcia's post. I was surprised to see that she also mentioned Laura "being burned at the stake!

As to many of those who posted on this thread, they took as gospel the statements made by Shannon and used them to slam Laura. If you look at Laura's rebuttals she often says that Shannon quoted her (Laura) incorrectly. That is the type of thing with which I have a problem - not Shannon misquoting - that stuff hapens innocently most times - but with people using that as gospel to slam someone else.

My point about asking for proof was that many seemed to jump on Laura, going as far as calling her dishonest, and then in addition to say she only paid the $100 toward vet bills because she got reamed herein (I guess someone else thought she was getting smashed here too); yet no one from the get go ever asked to see any proof from Shannon. Of course, Laura knew the animal was ill so maybe that is why she did not question Shannon, but they who would put down one side or the other darned tootin ought to ask for some sort of proof, as I see it, before trying to ruin someone else's reputation. Heck we get that hammered into our skulls here by the moderators and the webslave and by other posters over and over again. I guess it just struck me as mighty darned strange that no one asked here in this thread at all; and it seemed especially strange since the webslave just asked how we can improve the integrity of the BOI!

As to the reselling thing, if someone gets you to sell them an animal at a discount because they give you a line like:

"oh I really want to breed those, can't you make me some sort of deal so I can?"

and then they turn around and resell them the next week at a great profit, well you may have a case of fraud against them. Sure in most cases it would not be worth pursuing, but that is not what I understood from the person's post who first brought this up (maybe I missed it). I thought that person was complaining about simple resales - and there should be no complaining about that as I see it, or apparently as you see it either.

Thats it for me, I am off to lala land for the night. Goodnight.

Best regards,
GlennB

 

[Wilomn]

It was hard and heavy at first Glenn, but I meant as things have settled out, in the latter part of today, it seems that things have cooled and Laura has spoken well for herself.

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything like that, this thread did not take it's typical course but, then it was not really a bad guy post, it just had some not so nice elements in it that took a while to work out. I'm not even sure they're all worked out now but I'm pretty sure we won't see Laura repeating her mistakes here.

Wes Pollock

 

[ShannanD25]

Glenn,
Thanks for answering my question about the hookworm "common-ness" ( I know that is not a word but I made it one). I have learned it can happen to anyone, and this is not and was not, at all, a common occurence for Laura. It makes me more aware of my hygenic practices in my Leo room as well.


(Just in case, I can show proof of anything if any ones needs to see it, receipts, vet bill, etc...just to head off threads of that nature)


Shannan Donivan

 

[Tom Chambers]

Well said Glenn!

The problem seems to be in the few people that jump into EVERY "bad guy" or negative thread on the BOI to give their two cents. Very often it is critical and nasty for no other reason to jump up and down and be seen as they had no actual involvement.

This thread had a witch hunt mentality from the beginning and Laura deserved none of it. She stepped up, and answered questions.

I mean....this was a FREE animal that was HONESTLY represented.

This kind of thing HAS to stop in order to maintain the integrity of this board. And people that post negatively on someone in essence to just to say "YEAHHHHHHHH YOU SUCK!" when they have no involvement or real knowledge of the transaction beyond the one post they read need to get a life beyond the computer screen.

TC

 

[KelliH]

Glenn-

Go back and read what I wrote for a minute. I was complaining about being misled by her. I realize that once you sell an animal to someone it belongs to them, I have been doing this for a long time and trust me Glen, I understand that. It's all about honesty in this situation!

I am not "slamming" Laura. I am not "crucifying" Laura. I am not being "pissy". Someone did an inquiry on Laura Van Alyne. I have done business with her so I replied to the post. With my personal experience with Laura. Yes, my complaints were off the topic of the original reason Shannon posted this thread, so? I don't like being lied to or misled by others, do you? I thought it would be good to let people know about my experiences with her.

I'm sorry you feel she was being picked on or jumped all over. I tend to judge people by my OWN PERSONAL experiences with them, not my perception of them or whatever. When a person is dishonest or misleading in order to get me to send them more money than I should for some animals they are selling, or when a person misleads me or lies to me so that I will give them a discount on some animals I am selling, well, I feel that is something that should be brought up here in this inquiry about that person. Not to be mean to her, not to make her feel bad etc etc.

 

[Seamus Haley]

This thread had a witch hunt mentality from the beginning and Laura deserved none of it.

I disagree with that statement...

What it sounds like to me, from reading the thread at any rate, is that Laura performs a lot of actions which, while not illegal, not criminal and not "bad guy" behavior are certainly somewhat ethically questionable. It also sounds like she had been rubbing a LOT of extremely credible and upstanding gecko people (They have adhesive toe pads and no eyelids some of them) the wrong way but none of them considered her actions of sufficient importance to start a bad guy thread... However, when a thread is already in place, from an individual with somewhat misplaced but legitimate concerns then it is certainly appropriate to voice any negative or positive experiences.

In reading both the reported interactions of others and Laura's responses, it also sounds like she knows she has been on somewhat shakey moral ground a few times. What she does now in terms of changing her behavior will be important, as people will be watching a bit more closely than they had in the past.

Incidentally... if she wants to broker animals, that's great... Nothing wrong there whatsoever. However if others don't want to sell to brokers, that's their right as the individuals who produced the animals... Lying to them and stating that they're going to be pets or breeders makes the whole situation pretty rotten and while it's not something to demand money or the return of animals over, it's certainly enough for some people to decide not to do business with an individual. If the excuses of needing to get rid of the animals due to a financial emergency were true, then it wouldn't have happened as many times as it apparantly has or to as many people. If it were a situation where she was simply unable to keep the animals then there wouldn't be a price hike- looking to break even and not take a loss doesn't mean asking double what she paid.

I'm a bit irritated that anyone could read the same thread I read and come to the conclusion that Laura was being unfairly singled out in some manner... Her behavior was less than ethical, the posts detailing some of it were certainly on topic and the individuals who related their experiences are about as far as you can get from having a witch hunt mentality. Can anyone honestly say that Kelli (for example) is capable of waking up one morning and deciding she's going to ruin someone's reputation for no reason whatsoever? 'cause I certainly can't. To imply that there was some ulterior motive is bordering on offensive.

 

[E2MacPets]

My reply to Marcia, she will understand this and hopefully I don't need to say much more: Remember Gene Black?
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18342

 

[Greg Riso]

Situation Reversed

Well, now I'm going to blow my own reputation lol but I'd like to show a reverse situation in which Laura was very understanding with me. I posted a very unusually colored Hogg Island boa as a female and had it sold to Laura. The weather was really freezing here in New England and finally there was a one day window of opportunity for me to ship the animal to her. I made sure to check the animal over very thoroughly prior to being shipped and after looking at the size of the spurs decided to probe the "female". Low and behold what had been sold to me several months before wasn't a female after all and now I was faced with a very disturbing situation. I had a strong feeling that after seeing how nice this animal was Laura may still want it even though it wasn't the female she had bargained for. I shipped her the animal and after it arrived safely I proceeded to tell her about how I'd discovered it was actually a male and recommended she probe it to verify same. I even entitled the letter "True Confessions" lol.
Now Laura could have jumped up and down cursing me for having knowingly sent her a male when she paid for a female but she was extremely understanding about everything. I certainly would have allowed her to send it back at no expense to her but I knew this animal was so pretty she may have wanted to use him anyway. Sure enough she decided to keep my male and use him in her future breeding projects.
Why do I bring up this damning information about our transaction? To show that even the most honest and reputable dealers/breeders can make mistakes and be put in difficult situations where a judgment call must be made. I don't think Laura is out to deliberately mislead anyone and in my dealing with her I was very impressed with her level of understanding. With this said I for one will not hesitate to work with her again because I consider her a decent and responsible person.
Regarding her buying animals at a discount price and reselling them. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think that's the first concept taught in Business 101. An item or service is provided where the fee charged is greater than the cost invested in it. I think it's called profit. Show me one person in business that doesn't follow this basic concept and I'll show you someone that won't be around to long. Do you really think the Ben Seigel's and others with deservedly great reputations don't buy at a discount and resell at a profit on a daily basis? They are providing a service and adding value with guarantees, etc.
I think everything that occurs in this business is a constant learning curve and anyone that thinks otherwise is to full of themselves to think they already know it all. I can tell you one thing, however. After my experience with Laura I make damned sure I confirm an animal's sex BEFORE I post it for sale LOL! Thank you for being so kind and understanding Laura.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Regarding her buying animals at a discount price and reselling them. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think that's the first concept taught in Business 101. An item or service is provided where the fee charged is greater than the cost invested in it. I think it's called profit.

Here's the thing though... a few examples of her actions were given from people who do not sell their animals to brokers/resellers/dealers. These are people who have made a choice about who they are going to deal with and have been quite clear and upfront about what they see as their customer base and are vocal about who they do *not* want as their customer base.

When someone approaches an individual who's got a "Pet owner/breeder only, no brokers" policy and LIES about their intentions for the animal... that's dishonest, plain and simple.

If a person is dishonest in order to obtain animals they wouldn't otherwise have access to, why should anyone trust them regarding ANYTHING? If they lie to buy an animal, why wouldn't they lie to sell an animal? Once someone starts this kind of behavior, everything they do from that point on is highly suspect.

I think the individuals who reported situations of this nature were more than patient and tolerant and even forgiving. Had someone lied to me in order to buy an animal I wouldn't knowlingly sell to them, I'd be out for blood, not simply giving a polite and unbiased description of the events.

How is this any different than the hobbiest who lies to an importer and claims to be a petstore?

Or the dealer who goes around collecting adoption/rehab animals for resale?

It's the exact same lies, just in the opposite direction. As I said... it's not enough to make someone a true out and out bad guy unto itself but I know that it's certainly the sort of action which will make some people think twice before dealing with her in the future.

 

[KelliH]

Regarding her buying animals at a discount price and reselling them. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think that's the first concept taught in Business 101. An item or service is provided where the fee charged is greater than the cost invested in it. I think it's called profit. Show me one person in business that doesn't follow this basic concept and I'll show you someone that won't be around to long.

Greg-

I'll say it yet AGAIN, if you go back and read my posts in their entirety you will see it's not the fact that she was reselling the animals at almost double the price she paid, it's the fact that she was DISHONEST with me when she bought them. She was also DISHONEST with me in another instance, when I was inquiring about some animals she had for sale. If DISHONESTY is ok for you then that is fine, it's not ok for me, and that is why I posted, to make others aware. I'm not sure what part of that you can't understand?

 

[Greg Riso]

Okay, Strike The Quoted Paragraph

I knew if I didn't read the full ten+ pages here I'd get in trouble. No, Seamus and Kelli, I don't agree with dishonesty and do not feel it is acceptable behavior. After reviewing the thread if the events occured as Kelli stated then I stand corrected. While there's nothing wrong with making a profit, to do so under false pretenses is not right. As I said every day is a learning curve and I guess I should commit to reading an entire thread before posting. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to eat crow, er ah, intercourse the penguin, or something like that.

 

[Starlight_Specialties]

wow

I had every intention of completely staying out of this, up until now I have gritted my teeth (or my hands in this case) and stayed out of it, but two things bug me.

1.) I never asked for proof from Shannan, because I knew something was wrong. The Leo had never been exposed to any other Leo except the male, and he is fat as a bloated tick. He weight loss only occurred with the laying of the eggs..so, that led me to believe that she was overly stressed from the laying. In fact the increase parasite load would have occurred because of the stress of laying. I gave her away to someone who said they wanted to take her on. I'm even covering the vet bills of this animal and the medicating of her collection. There was NO misleading, no forcing, no lying involved here. I gave information as I knew it and Shannan is ok with this and the issue is over.

2.) Kelli and anyone else can believe I lied to her until we all cock up our toes. We are entitled to our beliefs. But, I have stated that I did not lie to her about the three juvies I got from her. I did NOT buy them with the intention of selling them. Of course, I never would have agreed to keeping them all their natural born lives either. As I mentioned earlier, I was unaware fate was going to throw me a curve ball. My oldest daughter went into the hospital of asthma related problems. this is a pre-existing condition insurance doesn't cover. We were able to get some of it, but she also need medications. I listed many animals for sale at that time, not just hers. I hadn't had hers long and didn't really want to part with them, so raised the price way above the norm. No one in their right mind would have bought them at that price. (by the way I was also selling another bold with that group that did not come from Kelli) Surprise...no nibbles. I was able to sell enough other animals that I did not have to part with hers. I was even able to find a mate for them. I was pleased.
Now that my Leo and dragon collections were complete (if not bloated - I really had to many - but that is the way of addictions), I then turned focus on my meager collection of boas. I fell back in love with my boas. A new love is a strong love. So, I decided to part with all of my lower end, as well as a few higher end Leos and beardies. Yes, that would include my beautiful new group of jungle Leos. Two females went to a local couple for the equivalent of $100 and no shipping was needed. Did I make a dime on them? Not at all. But, this couple was new into Leos and were in love with them. They knew exactly where the Leos came from and I even suggested going to Kelli or K&N to find a male for them. They were happy, which in turn made me happy. I did email Kelli to let her know they were in hands that loved them last night, hoping that would ease her some. I have the last female in a group of Bolds that are currently for sale. They are listed at $350 for the three. There has been little interest, and I may well go down as low as $250, which would basically cover the cost of the two I did not get from her. Again, I would be losing money.

Kelli - you may not sell to brokers that is your right, but I have seen many ads of people who have sold animals they have purchased from you, it is the way of things. It is business.

I have never considered myself a broker before. I keep what I need, sell what I don't and will continue to mold my projects in the direction that I want them to go; even if that direction is different than I originally thought it would be.

But, as I have said before that nearly everything I re-sell I lose big on; you can see that in the ad I currently have for my tang Leos. I would be losing well over a grand on them, and I lost the same when I parted with my Amel fattie project. I would make the absolute worst broker in history. Any real money I make doesn't come from reselling, but selling what I have produced.

As far as the incident that happened a long time ago, you have me at a disadvantage. I cannot possibly recall a conversation I had with a prospective buyer that long ago. My brain is not that adept. I have changed computers since then and don't even have any old emails to go by. I can't even remember a month ago without going through emails, as I talk to a lot of people. What I do know of those two animals is that they went to a gentleman who was purchasing them for his niece to breed.
I can't imagine I would purposely and maliciously lied to you, that has never been my way. Perhaps there was miscommunication on my part....perhaps I wasn't clear enough...I honestly don't know...I also did not know it has festered this long with you. I would have tried to make amends a long time ago had I known. That is how I am.

Here on this forum, I am stating for the world to see that I am SORRY for any mistreatment you have suffered at my hands. My being sorry has nothing to do with this forum or what some of you have said. It does have to do with me as a person. I always make things right - or will attempt to do so. I would never want to hurt another. I have always tried to be the salve that covers the wound, not one that inflicts one. I realize there is nothing I can do, that you would accept, that could possibly atone for these slights. But, that will not prevent me from trying.
Off the top of my head, I can think of doing only one of three things to help make things right.
1.) return the one female I have left of yours to you.
2.) cover any financial loss you took on them
3.) Offer you my large, gravid Bold that came originally from K&N

True, you may not want anything from me but my head - and my offering may further slice my own throat, but, I am doing the best I can to atone for wrongs you believe I have committed. This issue may never be resolvable with Kelli, though I hope that is not the case, but I have given it my best shot.

Peace be with you.

 

[Glenn Bartley]

First of all let me say In was rather surprised to receive one PM and twop emails about my posts on this thread. In light of those, and what I have implied from them I feel an apology is in order. I apologize to those who did not attack Laura, there were quite a few of you. I never meant anyone to think that I believed everyone on this thread was attacking her. Sorry if I made it seem like that. I still find, in my opinion, this thread also had quite a few who would fan the flames of emotions just to join the hunt, in my opinion.

I also want to apologize for saying that someone was acting as a perfectionist. That was quite possibly uncalled for on my part, goodness only knows that I do the same myself all too often.

Now to inquiry about Laura, the witch hunt thing, and to the integrity of this board. Seamus said:

I'm a bit irritated that anyone could read the same thread I read and come to the conclusion that Laura was being unfairly singled out in some manner... Her behavior was less than ethical, the posts detailing some of it were certainly on topic and the individuals who related their experiences are about as far as you can get from having a witch hunt mentality.

You should be irritated, but I think not because I came to any conclusion or formed an opinion from reading the posts here in this thread. Would you like me to again point out the specifics of why I believed this to be a witch hunt? The evidence of such is right in the posts. Where has anyone posted any proof. That was the crux of the problems with the witch hunts, there was no actual verifiable proof, and what proof was offered was often convoluted or solely testimonial. Of course there may be proof about all these claims, and I am not even implying that things have been trumped up, but I certainly am saying that no one has presented any physical proof. Seamus, I have seen your posts and quite a few of them, if memory serves me at all, asking others to place proof into their threads (although with my memory I could be way off the mark - but please let me know if you ever asked for proof before)! Now when I ask others to do the same you get irritated. I really just laughed outloud, not being a wise ass either, but it is a bit funny in an ironic sought of a way and because I think I know you are not raging mad at me (not yet anyhow). Of all people on this thread I would think you would be one asking for proof, but rather you seem to be satisfied to depend upon what others say with no offer of proof. other than there word. Many people were crushed under boards upon which stones were piled in the Salem Witch hunts based upon proof like that. Many others died during the inquisitions in Europe based upon such proof. What kind of proof is it when someone makes an accusation with nothing more than their claim to back it up? I am not saying that the claims are false, but nor will I say I think them true; at least not until someform of evidence is offered other than someone's words.

Laura is maybe not a great business person. She may not even be ethical. She may even be dishonest, Heck she may even be the slime bucket of the herp world - I just don't know based upon the testimonials that were given. I know from my employment that testimonial evidence is pretty darned weak - unless it is backed up by some sort of physical evidence. Now tell me upon what basis am I to form my conclusions about Laura - should I be taking someone else's word against her word? Should I base my beliefs only upon the fact that people said this or that about her? I don't know Laura, nor do I know Shannon, nor do I really know anyone on these forums except maybe Steve from E2Mac pets, and we only met twice. So I would prefer to see some proof of these claims - and not just the claims that Shannon made - but more particularly the claims made by the others who got down Laura and her business practices.

Now tell me, in all fairness, and in considertation of the fact that: Rich Z. wants the BOI to have more integrity: What is wrong with my saying this had a witch hunt mentality on some people's parts when they offered no proof and when even her apparent good intentions were questioned? The fact is that when she did something evidently positive she was immediately bashed for doing that. That is sort of akin to placing a witch in the water to see if she floats like a duck. You remember this one don't you? If I recall correctly this was done because witches were made of wood. Wood of course was like a duck because they could both float. So if an accused floated like a duck it meant she was made of wood, which meant she was a witch, and then would be killed. If on the other hand she sank, it meant she was innocent and not a witch - but it also meant she drowned - which meant she died anyhow. While that was all rather comical in Monty Python it was the basis for some actual witch trials (yes the test of floating was a real one). This is sort of like how I saw this thread. Laura was damned if she did ad damned if she didn't.

Again, I am not saying anyone is lying here. I am not saying that Laura is right or wrong. I am saying that the evidence presented sucks and is insufficient for me to form a conclusion other than to say that it appears that Laura is being shafted by this thread in its current form. Of course I am always open to see the evidence that is available. Maybe Laura deserves what has been dished out - but as I said just not on the word of others against her own word. I have seen a bit of it, that is the proof. The claims made by Shannon, and others, and Laura's claims too were all evidence - just not enough for me. Now I'd like to see the real meat (no potatoes needed I am thinking of going on Atkin's again) of the matter, and see some of the emails between Laura and others before I believe their claims. I don't even need such from Shannon, because Laura does not seem to dispute most of her claims. Yet she does dispute a few of them so I guess while not needing to, I would like to see them from her because it would shed more light upon the matter at hand. The more important stuff though, at this point is evidence from the naysayers. I really would like to see some of the communications between others and Laura who call her or imply her to be dishonest. Is that so wrong? In my opinion it is wrong to base a thread on statements without hard cold physical proof. That type of proof would put all of this in a different light as far as I am concerned. It would vanquish any witch hunt mentality, in my opinion.

Oh well, sorry that I pissed you off for having the particulatr opinion that I had on this (and still have). I'll probably wind up getting you irritated again from time to time, don't take it personally. Other times I am sure we will agree. I think you know my opinions are not meant as personal insults, nor to piss people off - they are just my opinions. No matter how much it irritates someone else, I am entitled to my own opinions, just as you are entitled to your own and just as you are free to get miffed at me.

All the best,
Glenn B

 

[Starlight_Specialties]

For those who don't like to read long posts, here goes:

Yes, perhaps I was wrong to purchase Kelli's juvies. I could not see what the future would bring. I did not know my interests would change. For that I was wrong.

Perhaps nobody else has purchased an animal and decided that wasn't what he wanted to do after all. Perhaps, in my ignorance, I am the only one.

For this, I appologize. I WAS WRONG, and in being so, inadvertantly wronged Kelli.

I have apologized to her and am hoping to make some kind of amends. I have not profitted one dime off her juvies. i will be lucky to break even. Perhaps I should have asked her first if she wanted them back, but she did not imply she wanted them back if I were to sell them. I didn't know. I was wrong.

Changing the directions of one's collection does not mean malicious intent and lies.

There you have it in a nut shell.

 

[KelliH]

Laura-

I certainly do not want any of your animals, or anything else from you. Because you owe me NOTHING. I will not sell to you or buy from you in the future, that's that. Oh, when I said the issue with you had been festering for quite awhile, I meant not only with me but with quite a few others too. Some have posted here in the thread, many have not.

Glenn, you are right, proof should be required here. I don't have proof of what Laura told me, I didn't save those emails. All I have is my word, which I guess isn't enough SOOO I will refrain from posting anymore on this subject. Everyone can believe whatever they choose about whoever, whether they feel Laura is a liar or I am a perfectionist (not that anyone ever said that LOL). I am finished with this one! Have a super weekend everyone.

 

[KelliH]

Oh, one more thing, Laura, the geckos you purchased from me were not juvies, they were subadults. It really doesn't matter anymore though, your latest ad calls them proven breeders so I don't know anymore! Does it really matter? I guess not, so why do I even bother?