Feedback on Starlight Specialties, Laura V.

[robin d.]

glenn,


No Laura's husbandry is not perfect, but then I challenge anyone here to show me the PERFECT husbandry that they perform - or in one poster's case the absolute perfect everything that I get the idea he/she believes he/she performs (this person shall remain nameless here but I'll bet that person can guess I mean him or is it her)

please refer to me by name instead of beating around the bush, my name is Robin by the way.. and i am a "she"

i never said perfect husbandry what i said was "correct" and "propper environment"

here let me show you

you say you see if the geckos can acclimate to your room because of the beardies and if they dont you sell them at reduced prices. or give them away.. ITS CALLED correct HUSBANDRY that is what good keepers do, not buy more and than see if the leo can tolerate the unsatisfactory conditions and iif it cant price reduce it or give it away..... it's not the geckos fault and you should take responsibility for the care the animals of this imporper evironment and do something bout it

and what proof did i have of this... stated by laura herself......

I also have a heat issue in my retile room due to the beardies. Some Leos adjust, some do not. if they don't adjust I sell them at a reduced price or give them away.

dont most of us a herpers and hobbyest and herper trys to care for and house are animals in the proper way for the species?
i mean would you keeo say a green tree python whom requires much lower temps and more humidity in a rooom with your beared dragons that need low humidity and very warm temps? and if the gtp's didnt adjust just sell off those or give them away because of improper husbandry???? housing two different spcies with different husdbandy conditions and expecting one or the other to adjust and if not just pass them off to the next, OH but maybe its just natural selection you know the strong survivive and the weak perish or... get sold off.

and Laura,
regarding this.....

One final note - my typing here will always be clean enough for even the youngest viewers to read; that is my responsibility as a poster. I will never call a person names speak as though they were so much trash. If I have a problem with a customer or seller, I will state things as mildly and as accurately as I can. If I disagree, I will disagree politely. In all matters I pride my self on my politeness and strive to always show respect. This is just my opinion on how things should be handled. I am entitled to this opinion, just as you are entitled to respond how you have

i call it like i see it, i do not beat around the bush, sugarcoat things or fill people full of things they want to hear...
i state my opinions plain and simple, albiet sometimes quite blunt and frank


so in general and agter all this i still cal the big BS on this..... you can sugarcoat and type correctly or whatever for lil kids to read or say im sorry til you are blue in the face but i will stand by what i said, and thus far not only have you proven to be dishonest in the past but also quitly of improper husbandry,resulting in conditions you state or imply (yeast infections LMAO... oh and maybe the hook worms come from improper husbandry or un santitary conditions this would go along with the rest of the inpropper husbandry techniques)you are apparantly not willing to care for,without first giving theb animal away.
and i cant seem to find the picture but i was on your site on day and was a pic of a hatchling, i think oone you have to paradiso... anywho you stated it as a hatchling but at closer inspection it was visually sexable which meant.. this thin skinny animalk the size of a couple week old baby as older than you stated and from the looks of it was either sick or mal nourished... but suprisingly the picture has disappeared
oh well

 

[robin d.]

wow my typing is really bad today worse than normal, which is pretty bad in itself LMAO

 

[Lucille]

My boas are nice and healthy. I think Laura was honest and above board with all her dealings with me. I would hope this witch hunt ends soon; the Spanish Inquisition used to torture perfectly good people, kill them after a while, and then just go on to the next torture party. Laura from what I have seen is a hard working family person with a special needs daughter who gets things she would not ordinarily have by Laura's hard work.
There are no people stepping up with good hard proof showing any intentional disregard of the critters in her care, and she sent vet money to help take care of this particular critter.

 

[Glenn Bartley]

To Everyone On This Thread,

You know, I made a statement in one of my posts, that someone in this thread considered him/herself to be a perfectionist. Here it is:

"Laura's husbandry is not perfect, but then I challenge anyone here to show me the PERFECT husbandry that they perform - or in one poster's case the absolute perfect everything that I get the idea he/she believes he/she performs (this person shall remain nameless here but I'll bet that person can guess I mean him or is it her) ."

Before we start I will admit I am guilty of trolling, or at least of simply throwing out some bait. (I guess it is about time I jack up some warning points, but really I did this with good intentions in mind as toward the integrity of the BOI.) I did not have to move the line or row the boat and sure as the sun came up today, I had a few nibbles. After almost no time at all I had two solid bites, and guess what I hooked two at once. I had no one particular in mind when I wrote that statement - and I apologized later to everyone because it had not been aimed at anyone in particular. I said it had been uncalled for when I apologized, but now that I think of it, maybe it was in order - not that I really meant anyone in particular was a perfectionist. It was a troll to see who would take the bait. Yet some of you were absolutely positive that I did mean you in particular. Read it again, just how I wrote it. I worded it so as to make you wonder who I meant, to give you enough line to hook yourselves. Two people took the bait two, of whom I am aware, they were Kelli and Robin (sorry ladies - but I really wanted to make my point and a troll was the only thing of which I could think).

I'll speak of Kelli first, and please realize that this is actually on topic because I am attempting to show that her use of accusation without proof against laura is, to say the least, in my opinion, a witch hunt. Seamus said in a post, that there is in essence no way Kelli could be on a witch hunt. Let me quote I here:

"Can anyone honestly say that Kelli (for example) is capable of waking up one morning and deciding she's going to ruin someone's reputation for no reason whatsoever? 'cause I certainly can't. To imply that there was some ulterior motive is bordering on offensive."

I don't think anyone would want to ruin someone's reputation for no reason - but there could be a reason. Of course there could be a motive or motives. I would not have thought I would need to tell you what they could be! One is called revenge or pay back. Is Kelli above revenge? Another could be called doing the right thing, that could also be her motive if she believes that she was wronged and needs to let others know. She claims to have been wronged by Laura, and in my opinion based upon the number of her replies, seems pretty upset at Laura. Yet she shows no proof and, now has said that the proof has been in essence lost. QUOTE]I don't have proof of what Laura told me, I didn't save those emails."[/QUOTE] I would like to believe her; but the allegations are serious enough for me, at least, to want to see some proof. You see if I believe her then I condemn someone else as a "bad guy". I don't want to do that any more without some sort of proof. I for one have discovered that Kelli can make the wrong assumptions about what someone has said or written and then get very testy about what she BELIEVES someone else has said - when she is as I see it quite wrong. Here is my proof, not a lot (but there is more) but I think enough to show that she believes I meant it was her when I made the perfectionist statement:

If you want to think that about me than that's your choice. Just shows your closed mindedness though, since you don't even know me.

The above was from an email she sent me. If anyone wants to see the email I'll forward it to you along with three (3) others she sent me about the same exact thing. According to her I am closed minded, yet she bases this on her wrong assumption that I meant her with the perfectionist remark. She seems quite concerned, in her emails to me, that I may have meant her. In fact, to me, she seems overly concerned. In my emails to her I continued playing the fish so to speak. I did not give her a direct answer about whom it was that I had meant by the "perfectionist" remark. Then I told her I would not say. This only seems to have convinced her that it was she to whom I had been referring. She was wrong. Yet despite basing her convictions on assumptions, she was ready to make accusations of close mindedness against me. Heck all I want is proof of her initial allegations against Laura, is that really so closed minded?

There is another person in this thread, Robin, who has done pretty much the same as Kelli with my words. She has assumed that I referred to her in something I wrote. She too was dead wrong. Robin however does it in a post on the forum instead of sending me numerous emails:

"please refer to me by name instead of beating around the bush, my name is Robin by the way.. and i am a "she""

She posted that right after quoting my perfectionist statement. Sorry Robin, but I did not mean you either. My main point of contention throughout has been that no one that I remember offers any real proof of claims of dishonesty made against Laura despite such statements like this one by Robin:

"i will stand by what i said, and thus far not only have you proven to be dishonest in the past…"

Just how was that proven, anyone on this thread please tell me that! Yes they say she was, in essence, proven a "bad guy" and it makes me wonder. It makes me wonder if Robin and Kelli believe that the proof against Laura was the same kind of proof that each of them must surely have against me that I called each of them the "perfectionist"? I am not trying to single out either of these ladies, they did that themselves by taking the bait. What I am trying to show is that anyone who is accusing Laura of dishonesty without having some sort of proof, is doing the same thing to Laura that these two ladies just did to me. This is regardless of whether or not they are right or wrong about Laura. What they are doing is making accusations and presenting no documentary or physical evidence that I have seen. To me, in my opinion, this amounts to a witch hunt.

Is it then a coincidence that the same two people, who were apparently so certain that I meant each of them was the "perfectionist", are also among the most expressive in form and quantity in their statements against Laura? Whatever their motive for posting, be it noble or not, I can say that I, for one, have a bit of trouble condemning Laura based upon their claims, and upon the claims of others, of Laura's dishonesty without there being some sort of documentary or physical proof.

I am not trying to slam anyone here, and I apologize in adcance if either Robin or Kelli feel that I am slamming them. I am trying to slam how some accusations get made. I hope that the two of you can understand the point I am trying to make, and understand I am not trying to get personal in stating my opinions.

Best regards,
Glenn B

 

[Vince]

even to much free time can be dangerous

 

[KelliH]

emails to Glenn

Here are all 3 emails I sent to Glenn:

The first one I do not have what I sent him, he can post it in it's entirety though. It basically asked if his comment was referring to me, and if it was that he was wrong, as I am FAR from a perfectionist, and that I am at times probably over critical of myself and what I do. His reply was:

***Hi,

As for Laura, I don't feel for her one way or the other. I was really commenting on how things get done on the BOI, and in this particular case how many seemed to attack her and take Shannon's word as gospel with no proof offered other than someone wrote something about someone. I know the BOI depend almost exclusively on the written word, but there are proofs that can be offered such as copies of emails, receipts from vets, photos of animals etc... None of that was offered here, yet many people condemned Laura. It could have been anyone, I just chimed in on this particular post because as I said it caught my eye die to my inquiry about Laura from a year ago showing up under the current thread yesterday.

As to the perfection thing, well I won't say who I meant. I should not have brought that up, but the person I said it about knows to whom I was referring.

All the best,
Glenn B.***

I then replied to his reply with this:

***Glenn-

Thanks for the return email.

**As to the perfection thing, well I won't say who I meant. I should not have brought that up, but the person I said it about knows to whom I was referring.**

So I point blank asked you if you were referring to me, and the above is the answer I got. So should I take that to mean you are referring to me or not? Can you just answer the question please? And, if you think that I am that way, why? You do not even know me and have never spoken to me.

Please tell me you were not referring to me with that. It hurts me to think someone would feel that way about me, even though it is someone I have never spoken to.

Thanks,
Kelli***

He replied to that with this:

***Please don't eamil me on issues from the BOI. I prefer to keep things in the open, and when I address something on the BOI I prefer to keep addressing them therein. If you would like to start a thread on the forums to ask me to whom I was referring, I will gladly address the issue there, and you may or may not like the answer I give on the forums, just as you seem not to have liked my reply to your original email.

By the way, I thought I said it pretty plainly in my first email to you, allow me to quote myself:

"As to the perfection thing, well I won't say who I meant."

That is about as plainly as I can put it.

Sincerely,
Glenn B***

I came back with this:

***Glenn-

No problem, I wil start a thread and I look forward to your reply there.

Kelli***

I then emailed him a final time, and said this:

***Never mind Glenn, I don't plan on starting a thread about it. If you want to think that about me than that's your choice. Just shows your closed mindedness though, since you don't even know me.



So fine, be that way LOL***


And Glen, I am happy to now have the answer to the question I asked you (which is why I emailed you in the first place), thank you for the answer. I am glad you do not feel that way about me, it hurt me that someone would because I am as far from thinking I am perfect as a person can possibly be. I emailed you asking you if it was me you were referring to. Please note that I never accused you, I asked you, in a private message, if you were referring to me. Yep, i did assume you were referring to me, especially after your reply to my email. Bad me for assuming. I didn't assume anything about Laura though.

AND as far as LauraV goes, I am finished with it. I have stated what I had to say about her, which is the truth. No, I do not have saved emails or anything else to back up what I said. I freely admitted that. I didn't think I would ever be posting about any of it anywhere! But when the thread was started, I wanted people to know what my experience was with that person. It is not about getting even with her, getting my revenge, being mean, etc etc etc. It is about my experiences with her, period, people can believe me or not, that is their choice! I am not the type of person to be involved in "witch hunts" or anything else. It is just ridiculous to think I would do something like that. I gladly have spent hours and hours on the phone with people, customers and non customers, teaching them all I know about reptiles but especially leopard geckos. Some of my very dearest friends are people that have bought leos from me, that's how our friendship started. I would never try and villify or crucify anyone. That's just not me. So as far as I am concerned, people can either believe me or not. That is their choice and I am finished defending myself when I did nothing other than report my experiences with a person I have done business with. Goodnight and Goodbye.

 

[Wilomn]

Glenn, I think you may have overlooked one important fact about Robin and Kelli.

Niether of them have ever been accused of lying or making up accusations about anyone, at least not that I know of. They are however, known for being honest and having integrity as well as excellant animals.

Since they have a well deserved reputation for being honest they deserve some credence for their statements about Laura. What good is a reputation if no one takes it into account, especially one for being honest and forthright?

So I, for one, gave credence to what both Robin and Kelli had to say without the proof you are so set on getting. They both also stated that their dealings with Laura had been some time ago. This makes it reasonable that they did not save every bit of correspondence they had with her. You see, these two, Robin and Kelli, are good guys, well known for it, and so to be believed JUST BECAUSE THEY SAY SO. Even though there was no proof to be had I did believe what they said. Sometimes you have to go with your gut feelings and mine said they were being honest.

Laura did come here and handle herself very well. Well enough that even with the bad experiances Robin and Kelli had some of us will give her another chance. Some people are capable of change and it SEEMS as though Laura is one of them. The fact that she didn't remember what exactly had transpired with Kelli and Robin was a little bit of a drawback but, she has gone out of her way to make things right in this instance. Whether that is because of the BOI or not is somewhat relevant but not really important because if she messes up again it will be here in a quick heartbeat and she will be through in this business. If she does do things right and honestly from now on then she will recover and eventually build up a reputation as an honest breeder/broker or whatever she wants to be.

Consider the sourse. It's not like a well known, criminal hiding, lying, size-sex-color-misrepresenting used car saleman came on and made accusations against Laura, it was two well respected well known breeders that said it.

In the case where a no name no reputation person came on and made these accusations then you would be right on in your wanting more proof. But, sometimes, you've got to believe folks known for being honest when there is no physical proof.

Wes Pollock

 

[Blazin]

Well its about time!!!!!

First of all I don't beat around the bush! Two years ago I saw this trend with Starlight Specialties and called it to many fellow herpers attention. I too, like many of the previous posters also sold Laura an animal. Specifically a extremely nice female Super Hypo Tangerine Carrot tail cross. Being the nieve person I WAS I made a generous deal on the sale. Thinking the animal was going to be part of a extensive breeding project which would likewise also produce more stunning animals I was at first pleased with the sale. About a month later I was shocked to find my beautful girl up for sale because of , and I qoute " daughter very sick in need of medicine. " If thats true so be it, but a reaccuring sales pitches of personal problems, family emergencies, or medical treatment does seem a little strange. One other point that I thought Robin made very well was the fact of Husbandry. Many and when I say many I might as well say the majority of the animals I see posted by Starlight Specialties are very thin(a sign of poor health especially when it comes to leopards tails). Not only that I have noticed I high number of Hatchlings that are posted have missing tails. The whole gist of the matter is not all the reselling and sales gimmicks. ITS THE CARE OF THE ANIMALS!
THEY ARE NOT SIMPLY ITEMS TO BE BOUGHT AND SOLD FOR A QUICK BUCK! Kudos to STEVE for calling you out on the statement " if the leopard survives it will make a good addition to your breeding project" SHAME ON YOU! People like you give responsible animal lovers a bad name!

 

[E2MacPets]

Husbandry and ethics of reselling animals aside, lets look at two factors that I dislike:

1) Selling animals "at a loss" to pay for medicine/doctors for her child routinely - if you don't have the money to both own animals and take care of your child, why are you buying animals in the first place?

2) Adding "will accept trades for..." to the same ads.


There is nothing wrong with having a hobby that you love and that can also earn you some revenue. There is something wrong with putting a business ahead of the wellbeing of your child, when you claim that you are selling at a loss to support your child. That's not good business sense and that's not good parenting. There is something wrong with being deceptive about the way you are running your business when you accept trades for animals you are claiming to sell at a loss to care for your child.

I don't care how well you present yourself here Laura. The facts don't add up to you being an innocent and wellmeaning person. Either you're a bad business person or a bad parent, perhaps a combination of the two.


Now let's add back in the fact that you keep your animals in subpar conditions where you force your leopard geckos to adapt to the temperature in your bearded dragon room or else sell them off. As a responsible owner you should be at least attempting to provide appropriate conditions for your animals. Instead you keep whichever animals seem hardy enough to tolerate improper conditions, and the ones that are failing to thrive you claim you are selling at a loss. Well how long do they stay in your care being stressed by improper husbandry before you decide to ship them off to some poor sap that pays you money for an animal that has been kept improperly and is declining in health?

 

[Seamus Haley]

Here's something I've commented about before and certainly haven't changed my stance on.

If you can't afford to keep an animal, you shouldn't own it. Period.

If these medical costs are as frequent and overwhelming as it seems, then the resonsible thing to do would be to STOP BUYING LIZARDS, since they're such a financial loss (according to Laura, although everyone else reports higher prices in the resales) and invest the money into something stable and profitable or simply save it outright.

What kind of sick addict will continue buying herps when their kid is constantly having health problems?

Unless of course the kid doesn't have constant problems and it's simply a convenient excuse and a way of generating sympathy.

I'm hardly a rich individual. Heck, I had to turn down free rubber boas (A species I really like) not ten minutes ago because I don't currently have the space or cash to maintain any more animals than I've currently got. It's not flattering, but I did the responsible thing for the animals as well as the fiscally responsible thing of taking care of rent and food before indulging in herps.

So which is is Laura... do you squander the money that should go to your daughter's medical health in order to play with lizards or are you simply trying to evoke sympathy for your "terrible plight"? You can't have it both ways.

Maybe I'm just a heartless mean spirited bastard, but I can't stand people using the "kicked puppy" defense to explain their dishonest actions and I also can't stand people taking on animal care responsibilities they can't afford. There are too many contradictions here for Laura to be entirely innocent, she's lying about *something* it's really just a question of which one is the lie and which is the truth.

 

[robin d.]

glen you put the bait out and caught a big un, with a nastey attitude and spit up on your face and showed you the facts about her husbandry, stated by ermmmm HERSELF

now what kind of moron does it take to read this thread and not realize this?

i am sure alot of people saw the hatchling sized gecko maybe 7 grmas with a pencil thin tail... which clearly had hemipenil buldges.... but astonishingly the picture has vanished from her site

hmmmm wow i found some of those pics not all of em but let me just post some of them for you k????????

just a tad thin eh?

not only is the tail missing but it has lost toes and appear to have a wound on its back left leg

shoot this one was the best loooking one of the bunch a bit thin and looks to be missing the tip of its tail........
i believe she was charging 105 plus shipping for them. while she has every right to charge what she wants i would even give geckos that looked like that away much less charge people for them. oh yeah these were the original animals she tried to "give" paradiso" for putting up pics on her site........
then laster retracted that these were the exact animals ... by the way paradiso had never kept leos and was a newbie and didnt know what "hatchlings looked like" i assume laura knew this and thats why she offered them to him

now just for comparison here are a couple hatclings i produced this year and ill even include one that is only a day old and hasnt even eaten yet.

one day old

six week old

16 days old


now this is what healthy hatchlings look like.... i too have a full time job...... and have many medical bills and whatnot that unsurace doesnt pay for, no disability no nothing... but i maintain my ainimals using ptoper husbandry and work them every single day to ensure their health. i also take care of alot of snakes.bearded dragons .six cats and four dogs and one husband and maintain the house and everything else.

is this a little more proof there glen (and you said it not me) "the troll"

eyelidless geckos.. no quarenteen come one i mean i can see why kelli said you were close minded.....

i hope ya learned something from that big ol fish that spit up a whole lot of facts on you... stinks huh?

 

[Lucille]

Laura and I are from Texas, which is in America. In America, (and everywhere else) facts are facts, it should not make a difference whether the person using them is the Virgin Mary or Jack the Ripper. There are VERY few facts here, but lots of hype. The basic story is that this little free lizard was discovered not to be well, and that Laura sent money to take care of it.
All of this other stuff is a witch hunt, which IMHO degrades the BOI.

 

[Stardust]

I am glad you found those Robin, I was debating on going through all the old KS threads to find threads and pics. You saved me some (a lot) time.
And when I think of the excuses, I recall it doesn't stop at medical bills, lets see, forgot to pay the electric bill, forgot to pay the insurance, ect ect.
By reptile mill, I meant it like puppy mill, as in breeding an animal close to death if not death. Amazing how everything has to sell because of finacial problems, yet you can keep buying.
I for one can not afford to BUY an animal to just give it away or sell it for less when I need money, just doesn't ADD up.

 

[robin d.]

so her own pictures arent facts? her admission to improper husbandry isnt a fact?

oh by the way the little patt was the skinny one, the second tremper albino with a missing tail,toes and damaged hind leg, and the third one posted as a hatchling has visable hemipenile buldges (male) yes the size of a three week old gecko arent any facys and the fact she was selling them as hatchlings and visual sex cant be determined especially from a pic until three- four months old... arent facts?.... they can be sexed sometimes before that but the hemepenile buldges arent that pronounced especially at the age she was stating them at........ shoot ask ANY leo breeder... just ask... only a trained eye can sex juvies at earlly stages and a pictures doesnt show it (the buldge at the base of the tail behind the legs and cloaca........



oh by the way i am from texas too... big deal... and yes facts are facts and seeing is believing

 

[robin d.]

stardust, she had removed them from her album so even if you found the thread the pictures in it would be gone and a red "x" remaining.... i just happened to save them incase.... at first i didnt think i had but i went through some of my files and did indeed find some of them...the really sad thing is... i have seen geckos listed on her album page in much worse condition as these

 

[Intense Herpetoculture]

Oh please. The facts are simple, Laura is well known in the leopard gecko community for her unsatisfactory captive conditions that lead to her animals degrading health and/or demise. I don't know her reputation for beardies or boas, and I really don't care. I hate to add to this "forum" on the BOI as I myself have not purchased from Laura and I do not plan on it for the same reasons already stated by myself and countless others. I will not even get into her crazy self-diagnosis and treatment concerning the health of her geckos, when I learned of this it was improper enough for me to know to stay clear away. Laura has clearly presented herself time and time again as a individual that does not properly care for animals, offers animals to individuals that are unable to care for them due to the status of their health, and is dishonest in her dealings if it means she can/will make a sell. I remember talking to Kelli in length about her dealings with Laura in the past. Kelli's story holds up the same it does today, I remember each of our conversations clearly. Look, we all here would rather be friends, simple as that. None of us gets any joy out of degrading another, and perhaps that is why no one posted any of this about Laura before. Laura may be a good person, but all I have ever seen her offer is skinny/unhealthy looking animals. Whenever your husbandry skills impact the health of your animals you should call it quits and that is simple enough. Perhaps she should stick to bearded dragons and boas.

 

[DavidBeard]

Jeez...where does Laura work, PetCo? Are you guys sure those aren't some kind of AnolexLeopard Gecko hybrid?

Those pictures are deplorable. I am utterly disgusted.

 

[Blazin]

Hind Sight is 20/20

A few years back this very discussion was brought up about the condition of her animals and the constant reselling. It was noted back then and even a little more recently she had a high number of very skinny and emaciated leopards. Not only that. It seemed to me that a majority of her hatchlings had missing tails. In a previous forum discussion I made the comment that I had never had one leopard loose its tail in all the time I had been breeding . Well I now have to eat a little HUMBLE PIE. I had a female jungle drop her tail for no apparent reason and also one of my Fattails escaped from my rack and was later found running down the hall tailess( the part of her tail is still MIA). My point is this I am speculating of course but I probably am very close. I would be willing to bet that the majority of her hatchlings are rarely hand fed or held. I would also be willing to say they are probably housed together in large numbers. Although the occasional tail mishap is understandable, clearly seeing leopard after leopard with skinny tails or no tails SENDS UP A HUGE RED FLAG! I can only hope the leopard I sent to Houston ended up in someones hand that truly loves leopard geckos, and didn't look at them as disposable items to be bought and sold!

 

[DavidBeard]

You also have to remember that Leopard Geckos aren't exactly hard to care for.....if Laura can't even keep one of the easiest pet lizards healthy on a consistent basis, God only knows what would happen if she ever got into anything a bit trickier....

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Wes,

Glenn, I think you may have overlooked one important fact about Robin and Kelli. Niether of them have ever been accused of lying or making up accusations about anyone, at least not that I know of. They are however, known for being honest and having integrity as well as excellant animals.

Well neither was martha Stuart ever accused until recetly. My point is not that they are lying, but that anyone could - just as anyone could be wrong, just as anyone can tell the truth and anyone can be right. I just prefer some evidence, I have been taken for a ride too many times. I prefer not to jump on the band wagon with the funeral dirge until I am convinced that the guy brought out was really dead (there I go with Monty Python again). Actually, I did not discount their possible honesty at all. I take it on face value that people are being honest. I took it on face value that all parties concerned were being honest as far as each believed themselves to be, but also that not each could be right. It was and is obvious that someone had to be either lying or incorrect. Maybe more than one person. After all, it is possible that the story is not as cut and dry as any side would show it, it could be a bit true on Laura's side, a bit true on Kelli's side , a bit true on Robin's side, a bit true on Shannon's side and it could also be a bit wrong on each of their sides - or all right or all wrong or any multiple or fraction on any one side. They may all say what they believe and give very different renditions of what took place for any given incident. Physical evidence helps break through all of this. It is nice to have faith in people, to believe them, but often as the case may be, people's testimony is proven wrong - this even as I said when they believe they have told it like it was.

Another thing I do not discount is the number of people who say she is a 'bad guy'. But nor do I discount those who say she is a 'good guy' either. Despite all the talk, solid evidence is the best thing. Even confessions have been overturned by solid physical evidence showing that the person who confessed could not have done the deed. (Yes their are a few real jerks out there who confess to crimes they really could not have committed, I think they should be institutionalized, but oh well...) I do think some of the confessional type testimony herein was rather damning with regards to husbandry, but not so much toward the honesty issue. Nut that is beyond my point which again was not frying someone without sufficient evidence.


Robin,

Good for you, it is about time that you made an attempt to show some evidence instead of showing your emotions and claws without any physical proof. You see I don't give a rats butt hairs about who is right or wrong or telling the truth or lying. That was not my point. I only was concerned about the BOI, what is posted here and that people give evidence in their claims.

I really don't doubt all that much, the veracity of the pics, but someone might; just how would one ascertain the origins of them? (I really do not want an answer, its rhetorical, and something to think about.) In fact I kind of did not doubt the veracity of many of the claims against Laura at least regarding husbandry. I just like to see proof. Without proof it is, in my opinion, a witch hunt, or name calling, or like kids in a playground, one saying "No I didn't"; and the other saying "yes, you did". It is just like you were certain I referred to you as a perfectionist and Kelli was sure it was he to whom I referred.

So now should we convict Laura because you finally after how many posts, and how many days, took some pics and said here is the proof. I think it is great someone is attempting to finally show something - but proof - not yet but we are getting there. It would have been much better to offer anything like that before ever writing a bad word about someone else, that was and is my point. Just imagine the state we would live in when someone could say - she did it - yes Robin did it - and left it at that. Then the police came - locked you up - tried you and sentenced you. It happens in the world even today and it sucks. Sure this is not a police issue but the analogy is a decent one. We are policing herp dealers.

By the way the term is not troll, a troll is: a big, ugly, hairy, fat, scary monster that eats just about anything (hmm that could be me according to my wife). I really am more akin to fishermen, maybe a master bait caster, although thanks to my wife I have become a master... I'll leave that to your imagination. As it is I have too much time on my hands, and spent too much of it on this thread arguing. Weed out all the slimebuckets that you can, but make sure they are slimebuckets first, then get em good.

Now on a more enjoyable note, let me reiterate the words of a great entertainer by saying:

Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are.

Best regards,
Glenn B