Feeder Fish Have Ick

[Cyphyrys]

Hey, My feeders just recently got ick, and i was wondering if they would still be safe to feed to my pacman.. i wanted to find out b4 i try it...don't want anyhting bad ot happen to him

 

[cthulhu77]

Ich is a surface parasite that infects/attacks weakened fish...do not use any of the commercial ich medications prior to feeding your frog, they are based in copper, and can effect the frog severely.
My recommendation? Flush the fish, and get some new ones.

greg

 

[Cyphyrys]

ok, thank you very much greg

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Take the fish, freeze them, leave them in the freezer for at least a week, then thaw some out. After fully thawing them, hold with forcepps and wiggle in front of the pacman frog. Chances are their carcasses will be history in short order. Why waste good food.

The freezing will kill off the parasites you see and those inside that you don't see.

 

[cthulhu77]

Unfortunately, that is not true...ich encysts upon freezing, and can survive quite well...get rid of the feeders. They don't cost enough to warrant the problems...

greg

 

[Glenn Bartley]

While they may survive a short duration of freezing, will they survive a week (or two) at below freezing temps? I find it rather unusual for a parasite of their size. Most vets and herpetoculturists I have spoken to recommend freezing food items, used for herps, to kill of parasites and most bacteria but, not viruses. Are there other exceptions among the parasites?

 

[cthulhu77]

It has been coming to light more and more lately that many bacteria can withstand freezing, and quite a few parasites also...especially in the case of something like ich, which is cold tolerant and dies in warm water.

Many viruses also have developed remarkable "shells" that protect them from extremes, although massive uv light seems to break down the rna of many...

Creepy stuff, really...best bet, when you see something ill, get rid of it, before it spreads...(think resident evil here!)

greg

 

[Glenn Bartley]

I became curious about what you said, that Ich would not be killed by freezing. According to an abstract for the article: COMPARING TOLERANCE OF ICHTHYOPHTHIRIUS MULTIFILIIS AND TETRAHYMENA THERMOPHILA FOR NEW CRYOPRESERVATION METHODS (Issn: 0022-3395 Journal: Journal of Parasitology Volume: 88 Issue: 1 Pages: 41-46 Authors: Everett, Karin D. E., Knight, John R., Dickerson, Harry W.) See this link for the abstract: http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0022-3395&volume=088&issue=01&page=0041 Ich cannot survive freezing and then reinfect fish. Here is the bottom line quote from that abstract to the above effect:

No combination of reagents, media, freezing rates, or dilution media permitted cryopreservation of I. multifiliis parasites that could then undergo development or infect fish.

I'd like to read the whole article but am not about to pay dues just to read one paper. Of course they also do say that after freezing the theronts they were able to vitrify some to the point where they showed some movement but, this required use of certain chemicals that would not be used by the home hobbyist who had frozen then thawed ich infested fish for later use as herp food; nor would it then apaprently be normal for Ich to survive freezing in nature. If they simply could be frozen in the freezer, then reanimated to ”…where they could again infest fish…”, I would think the authors would have reported such since they seem to be searching out a method to preserve them by freezing, then resurrect them, for later studies. I think therefore that freezing them, at least for a week or maybe two weeks, would be an effective way to insure killing them. Of course, this is only one source document and, if you are aware of studies that show otherwise I would be interested in them because one study does not usually prove the case.

Best regards,
Glenn B

 

[cthulhu77]

An interesting paper, I am sure...but be sure to read the bit about the freezing methods...they go waaaaayyy beyond a home freezer. (unless your fridge makes ice in 30-40 seconds)


For more on bacteria/parasites/viruses:

http://www.cdc.gov/

should be required reading, although it might want to make you head for the hills and breath through a filter!

greg

 

[Glenn Bartley]

But you don't seem to get the point that if the home freezer were a useful method of NOT killing the theronts, then they would use that and not need to search out other more complicated methods. They are looking for a method by which to freeze the ich, then bring it back to full function, to be used in lab experiments. You are saying that freezing them in the home freezer will not kill them - this is exactly what they are searching out! Are they presumed to be so ignorant of this that they need to study more complicated methods?
Best regards,
GlennB

 

[cthulhu77]

Not at all ignorant of what they are doing...keep my fingers in the fish trade quite heavily...but what they are talking about is "cryofreezing"...more equivalent to a flash freeze than a slow and steady freeze that the average homeowner has in their house.
Would the ich hurt the frog ? Maybe not...but why run the risk? It makes more sense to get rid of the food animals.

I was over at a person's house, viewing their collection, and noticed that they were feeding dead lab mice to their snakes/lizards...these mice came from a biolab, and were cheaper than buying dedicatied feeder mice. You have to ask yourself, is the price difference worth the possible danger? And I am saying possible...most likely, nothing will happen.

Do you buy canadian hamburger???

greg

 

[Wilomn]

Wouldn't a simple soaking in salt water until the cysts had exploded be a simpler cure for this problem? Then you can rinse them in fresh water and feed them off that way.

Also, I've never heard that this parasite is not ichthies specific.

Although I must agree with Greg. If you've got feeder goldfish that are not 100% toss em and find a new supplier. If I got sickly mice I'd find a new mouse guy or be sure that his stock was healthy before I bought before I bought from him again.

I have one huge horned frog who eats a large mouse on average once a week. Fish are a pain in the butt to feed off, too slippery.

 

[cthulhu77]

once again, isn't it better to be safe than sorry? I'm not sure if frogs like salty fish, either !

I have seen frogs that looked like they had ich...unsure of the transmission values, but why take the risk over a dollar or two?

greg

 

[jglass38]

This is an interesting discussion but if you are looking to feed disease free feeders to your frog, its not going to happen. Most, if not all feeders are disease ridden and lucky if they live to become a meal (or unlucky). Would the frog freeze its prey in the wild?

Jamie

 

[Wilomn]

This is an interesting discussion but if you are looking to feed disease free feeders to your frog, its not going to happen. Most, if not all feeders are disease ridden and lucky if they live to become a meal (or unlucky). Would the frog freeze its prey in the wild?

Jamie

Were he a very well to do frog, he very well may.

"croak, I say Jeeves, put that guppy in the freezer, won't you, that's a good crawdad, it looks a tad icky to me, croak."

I could see it happening. Couldn't you?

 

[aliceinwl]

Ich are aquatic protozoans that parasitize fish. I've never seen documentation of them infesting an amphibian. Also, you frog is not aquatic. Feeding fish with ich to your frog is fine. If they are treated for ich, however, the medicine will make them unsuitable for consumption.
-Alice