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Feeding live 1x caused perm aggression?

omni

omni

antiunresemiretirismic
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I've always been using f/t, but 2 wks ago, I was short on time having to go on errands during feeding time, and was short of fuzzies for my yearlings. I thought rather than do the feeding routine again later, I grabbed a couple out of the mice tank and offered them to two of my yearling corns, a 14 month old Anery and 16month Amel, both males. The anery struck the mouse from my hand violently and held it for a min and downed it shortly after. The amel took his time circling it and grabbed it normally in a min or two and ate peacefully.
Now the next feeding, they were both fed f/t, and both struck at the prey very quickly, as in defense biting and recoiling. The amel struck the fuzzie 2 more times before deciding to eat it.
This is very atypical of my snakes, usually they take their time making sure where the food was, and if in fact it was food that entered their habitats. But now it seems that these two are now very high strung lil snakes, and has me wondering if they will settle down, or if I stirred some unreversible change in their behavior. Each of the two have been handled three times since the live feeding 2 wks ago, and they really do not appreciate any handling now. The Anery, "Arrow" was always so laid back and has never been a prob. I really don't advocate feeding live, pinkies or fuzzies, and don't want to experiment with my others to see if this is repeatable and have a colony of meanies that might stay that way. Any tips or insight is appreciated, thanks
~Paul
 
If they have been eating f/t all of their lives, the live very well could have just thrown them off. Especially with a snake that age that has never been fed live, it can pose a lot more problems than a feeding live to a snake from day 1.....I know most of my corns have always had f/t, and don't even think about constricting the prey before just starting to try to swallow it, which would obviously cause problems if I were to give them live.....namely them getting bitten, and perhaps becoming "leary" of their food as they didn't have any clue that some food has to be killed by THEM before they try to eat it.

I would hope that if you continue back to the f/t, they would mellow out....I don't really see the feeding of live causing such a drastic personality change when it isn't even feeding time. In the future, if you don't have frozen available, I would recommend prekilling the live before tossing it in there, then you won't have to worry about it.
 
Cat_72 said:
Especially with a snake that age that has never been fed live, it can pose a lot more problems than a feeding live to a snake from day 1.....I know most of my corns have always had f/t, and don't even think about constricting the prey before just starting to try to swallow it, which would obviously cause problems if I were to give them live.....namely them getting bitten, and perhaps becoming "leary" of their food as they didn't have any clue that some food has to be killed by THEM before they try to eat it.
Click to expand...
lol - you mean like the (stupid, nonfeeding - that's why I gave him live in the first place) dumerils boa that bit the live mouse on the butt and held on, without constricting, while the mouse dragged him around the tub :ack2: :rofl:

I suspect that moving prey threw them for a bit of a loop, since they hadn't experienced it before...but I wouldn't expect it to be a permanent change. If you go back to f/t they will get used to food not moving; if you don't, they will get used to the fact that it does (and be stimulated by the movement, as opposed to frightened by it).
 
And if they were fed in their enclosure live, and were always used to F/T, than the snake might associate anything "live" coming into the enclosure as a meal. And like Cat said, if he had a rough experience with a fiesty live meal, than he can be nervous about all meals for a while.

Anthony Allis
[email protected]
 
ExoticsExpress said:
And if they were fed in their enclosure live, and were always used to F/T, than the snake might associate anything "live" coming into the enclosure as a meal.
Click to expand...

I disagree.

There's two types of memory, two ways that thoughts are generated; declarative and procedural.

Declarative memory is an ability to conceptualize and analyze situations as they're happening or even before they happen- it's something that isn't found much in anything but mammals and birds. The fidelity of a response or action can be judged mentally without the action actually having to happen. There isn't really an immediate response since the organism needs to work through the possibilities and weigh and judge the action, but it is something that is particularly adaptive and can be used to respond to a new situation or one which the organism has not been frequently exposed to.

Procedural memory controls instinctive responses, responses without active, conscious thought. This is the overwhelming majority of the brain function for reptiles, snakes being some of the most instinct driven, predictable and non-adaptive behaviorally. When a certain set of stimuli happen in similar or identical manners over and over and a pattern is firmly established around an action which has a direct, positive ramification, their behavior can change. This is a relatively long process though, agressive feed responses do not develop after a single feeding.

What I think is a lot more likely is that an owner who was unaware of that has changed their handling and interaction, the way they approach and respond to the animals in subtle but important ways. Someone who's worried that an animal is going to respond with agression provides a whole new stimulus when they interact with them, in some cases a new stimulus that's more likely to provoke the response they were nervous about. The owner's declarative memory allowed them to analyze the situation and reach a conclusion (eronius though it may be, the margin of error increases in direct proportion to the experience), they changed their behavior which in turn changed the response elicited out of the snakes. A situation which will only compound itself the longer the owner is under the misimpression that feeding live fuzzies promotes agressive behavior, since their approach will provoke the behavior they were nervous about, strengthening their belief that the animals are now agressive and even further changing the way they approach the animals.
 
Feeding "in the enclosure", live or otherwise, really shouldn't make any difference whatsoever, as long as feeding time isn't the only time you open the enclosure and handle the snakes. As Seamus said, it takes time to condition an animal to associate the opening of the enclosure only with food....if you are handling the animals regularly between feedings, there is no reason for them to associate the movement in the enclosure or opening of the enclosure only with food.

And yeah Harald....EXACTLY like that, lol. ;)
 
Hi Anthony, Yeah, I don't transfer them to feeding enclosures, just put their pinky or fuzzy in one end of the tank or tub. Some good insights... thankyou all.
So I guess they just fell back on instincts to a situation they hadn't been in before? Maybe they just need to see nothings changing for them, that they have no reason to be stressed anymore and will forget that episode... They will be fed again Monday, and handled maybe Wed. or Thurs if they'll be somewhat settled.
How much in a tiny brain can be devoted to cognitive memory? Maybe some, but I'm just hoping they didn't get 'hard-wired' to behave like that. The 2 yearlings I mentioned are still in 20qt(I think) sterilites big enough for almost 3 prs of shoes, my 3 yearlings get held almost every week, 2 days after feedings if they come out of the hide.

On a side note, the other day my other yearling "Peek", a blizzard fem hit me with mouth closed, I barely felt it. was so cute how she did it, just hit my hand with her nose not biting when I picked her coconut shell for cleaning, startling her. She always pulls paper towels and substrate in to make the hole smaller. She's the most timid and fast of my corns.
 
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