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Female eastern with swelling....

M

mmeade

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I have a female couperi that was hatched in '02. She has not been bred. She has developed a large swelling just anterior to her cloaca extending forward about 4 inches. She is active and fed a few days ago. The area of the swelling is stiff when she moves, but she looks normal above and below it.

Gentle palpation of the lump doesn't reveal any hard mass like an egg, but I may be pressing too lightly to feel it.

I observed her trying to defecate, she lifted her tail and opened her vent and some semi-liquid urate type stuff came out, but no real stool.

Could she be egg bound this late in the year and without mating? Might she just be constipated? I've tried soaking her in warm water but no luck as yet.

I suppose it could be a tumor, but the swelling is very symmetrical, as though she's been inflated with air.


My problem is that I'm working 12 hour shifts the next few days and will not be able to get to a vet until Friday. Does anyone have any suggestions as to other potential causes and/or first aid treatments until then?

Thanks,

Mike
 
Mike,

Your description could indicate several things, as such instances can be difficult to determine from only a description, though you have presented such in a well detailed manner.
First thing that comes to mind is impaction, due to your descriptive of her trying to defecate. If this is the case, exercise and soaking will help. Another issue could be ovulation, though such rarely causes the swelling you have indicated, unless there is an underlying infection. Eggs are generally soft and pliable while within oviduct, as they must conform to the duct while moving through it. I would not say it is too early for follicular development and such could be a concern. Personally, I would consider taking your girl to a veterinarian well versed in herpetofauna and seeing about getting an ultrasound or x-ray of the enlarged area, as only close examination by an experienced eye and perhaps a radiology workup will tell for certain…

Best of luck to you and keep us posted,

Jeff
 
Off the top of my head, it does sound like simple impaction. IF IT WERE ME (so as not to convey it as medical advice), I would deliver a few CCs of Mineral Oil down her gullet and continue the soaking. That may help if it is impaction and won't hurt if it is not. And of course, take it to the vet. But then again, if it were in front of me, I would verify impaction.
 
Thanks, Gentlemen.

I am taking her to the vet first thing Friday morning. I will continue the soaks in the meantime and try the mineral oil.

Hopefully she just needs a good poop. I will let you know how she progresses.
 
Yup, the vet, and an X-ray. And the sooner, the better. Maybe have someone else take her for you. ASAP.

Just curious,...what have you been feeding her?

I'm going to guess that she is trying to pass an infertile egg. So let us know what the vet finds. Best of luck,
T.
 
You might be right...

I'm starting to lean toward the egg theory. I think now that there are 2 distinct lumps about egg sized right above the cloaca. I hope I'm wrong, but I'll know in the morning.

This is a little girl (about 5 feet) that I didn't intend on breeding until at least next year (she would be 5 years old then), if ever. I usually feed her f/t small rats. Occasionally she'll get f/t extra large mice (like when Rodent Pro is out of rats) and I feed her f/t chicks as well.

In fact I guess it is worth mentioning that the last meal she had before the swelling appeared was...2 f/t chicks about 5 days before I noticed the swelling. And today she is just going into shed.

Soaking has only yielded a small amount of urates. She seems to be alert and have good body tone other than the swollen area.

Thanks for the good wishes and advice and I'll let you know what we find out.
 
It is eggs...

The vet took x-rays that show one enormous egg just at the vent and a normal sized one right behind it. She doesn't feel the snake is in immediate danger because the eggs seem to have dropped naturally.

She inserted a catheter and lubricated the snake with mineral oil in hopes that it will allow the first egg to pass naturally as she doesn't feel the snake is in any immediate danger. I hope she is correct.
 
I had a hunch. Personally, I think I would be wanting to get those eggs out before they become adhered to the oviduct. But that's just me. There are several ways to get them out too. And there are risks associated with the procedures of getting them out. So it's a judgement call I guess. Do keep us posted though. This is a valuable learning experience for all.
T.
 
Now I'm confused.(again) Will females develop eggs with out breeding ?
I knew they could ovulate but thought the "eggs" would just be reabsorbed
Is this one more thing to worry about now. :shrug01:
 
Good question, Gale

I know iguanas and chameleons can become egg bound without breeding, but I didn't think indigos could. Now I'm pretty sure they can!

This snake is housed in a stack of cages with a male in the cage below her. He mated with the female that lives above her enlosure, but was not introduced to the snake that is now eggbound. The snake he mated with never became gravid.

Could the mating in close proximity produce hormonal changes in the virgin female? Since infertile eggs are laid, what exactly is the trigger for egg formation in indigos? Physical stimulation of mating? Pheremones?

I sincerely hope to get a look a them...soon! Sigh....
 
Hi all, interesting discussion, sry i've been away on other matters for a few days. My first guess was impaction but an oversized egg is an interesting point about the snake's biology. It may indeed be possible that indigos can produce eggs without mating and juvenile or first time producers of other snake species are prone to problems first time round. Having only just aquired my male dry i cannot speak about this species but can draw some parralells with other species.
Snakes are very much governed by seasonal changes in order to gear them up for the mating season, and coupled with the pheromone levels all around her during previous matings may have confused her somewhat. Folicles are usually developed and then re absorbed if not fertilized, most of the time.....
The other great thing about snakes are they are always surprising us, there is a record of parthenogenesis in a Burmese Python ( Python molurus bivittatus) at a zoo in Holland, where the snake produced a clutch of eggs that were fertile and hatched even though the snake had never been mixed with a male! DNA analysis of the hatchlings showed they were exact clones of the mother. Who knows what indigos can do if given the right stimuli.
We recently removed an oversized egg from a Beaded Lizard by draining the egg and then removing the collapsed egg. Something I would be very careful about doing, but from what i can see is the least invasive of options other than waiting or usign oxytocin. All this should certainly be referred to a vet and not taken from my advice, which i have not given. :NoNo:
I think epedemic sounds like a guy with vet knowledge so some more feedback from him would be great.
Would be great to remove the first egg and see if the other follows, trying to incubate it would be the most interesting thing.
Hope it all works out
Al
 
Update

The female eastern shed on Saturday and began actively attempting to lay. Sunday I squirted some more mineral oil in her vent to try to help out. This morning I found she had passed the large egg overnight! She looks much better, but there is another (smaller) egg to go.

I'm hoping she'll pass it soon and avoid surgery on Thursday. Here's a picture of the first egg.

http://gallery.kingsnake.com/data/7821P1010014.JPG-med.jpg
 
SIGH of RELIEF!

Ive been worried about her! Sure hope she passes the next one o.k. too!!

This is very interesting. It looks to me like the egg does not have the typical sandpapery surface of a normal egg, and that may be the only thing that kept it from becoming adhered to the oviduct wall. Just for the heck of it, I would dissect the egg to see what's inside. Although it's almost definitely a slug.

Can you recall any environmental anomalies over the last 9 months which may have caused this phenomenon? Day or night length interuptions, electricity failures, light cycle getting messed up some how, etc.? I'd really like to understand how this happened. You said this girl is a virgin right?
T.
 
It gets stranger...

I weighed the "slug" and it was 92 grams! I started looking at it a little more closely and realized the egg was coated in a rubbery outer layer that peeled off to reveal..an egg. It is not "sandpapery", but it does have the texture of a dry egg...just rubberized.

The coating was very thick at one end and more skinlike elsewhere. The egg weighed 76 grams after the coating was removed.

Here's the egg cleaned up.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/7821bigeggpeeled.JPG-med.jpg
 
Well, just for the heck of it,...put that egg someplace at about 73 degrees, and 75% humidity, and see what happens. Who knows. That is very odd though. Although I know that the human body will often times form a protective coating around a foreign object inside the body.
T.
 
I'm sure it is a dud...

If I incubate it anywhere it will be in the freezer. I think the eggs were treated as a foreign body as you suggest. Why they were encapsulated rather than absorbed I don't know.

I think I will attempt to aspirate the egg to determine if there is any liquid material that can be removed in case that becomes necessary with the remaining egg. But I suspect she will pass it as it is much smaller.

Here's a bad picture of the x-ray.

http://gallery.kingsnake.com/data/7821xray.JPG-med.jpg
 
The egg's contents were still liquid

I was easily able to aspirate the yolk/albumin from the egg which then collapsed.
So, I'm hopeful that the vet will be able to get the second egg out without surgery if she doesn't pass it on her own.
 
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