Final poll on the membership fee program

[John316]

I vote for keeping the BOI free for viewing AND posting. Charge for the other frills of the site such as the classifieds. I also suggest that the warning points be lowered to cut down on the amount of abuse that one can dish out before having to pay a penalty.
Cynthia

 

[dwedeking]

I have to admit, yet again, that I am astonished at how high of a hurtle some people believe that penny ante fee will be to many people. Do you guys really believe that so many people ARE so cheap? I guess lucky for you all that I'm not that way, eh?

Rich, my thought was that as an advertiser I would be willing to fork over more to keep what I feel the main attraction to the site (the BOI) free to encourage more new visitors. I do feel that charging for that area will affect the traffic here and give your detractors more fuel.

Seamus,
I advertised here before it was a financially sound idea because I believed in the idea behind the site and believed in Rich. As long as the principle stays the same I will continue to advertise to support the site. It is nice now that traffic is up on this site that it also pays back my way as well. By principle I mean that the industry police itself through peer pressure and open debate, not on whether a fee is applied or not.

Anyway, stop haggling about it and do something so I can pay my membership fee (waiting for this overly long donut-free meeting to end )

 

[KelliH]

My choice isn't on the poll either. Charge for folks to post classified ads, keep forums (including the BOI) free to view and post in.

I have already explained my reasons for this in other threads.

 

[leaftail]

I am not cheap, and I was planning to hit the highest level of contribution that my budget would allow. But I STILL think the BOI should be free. It's not a matter of me being cheap. I expect to contribute more than the "penny-ante" $10 anyway. acourse now my feelings are all hurt and I'm all huffy and whiney, but I'll get over that too.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

I did enjoy using the BOI to send "props" to the people who have done us right. These people are the ones that make doing business on the internet worthwhile. I felt they earned a quick thumbs up. But I've learned in this thread that the simple good guy thread is not wanted.

Mark

I don't agree w/this statement. I've searched the BOI numerous times and came up with a lot of thumbs up threads. Those are the people I bought from. I'll bet there are tons of people who do this too. So the thumbs up threads are worth something.
I'm not getting the meaning of this statement: "The simple good guy thread is not wanted."

 

[WebSlave]

I'm not getting the meaning of this statement: "The simple good guy thread is not wanted."

That likely stems from my statement someone in these threads that my original ideal for the BOI was to have ONLY exceptions posted. In the line of Good Guy threads, people or businesses that do something extra in the line of doing business. Simply getting an order, shipping it out on time, and the people getting what they paid for, should be baseline. In other words, not noteworthy. People should EXPECT to get that sort of treatment. It is only if the get a cut above the normal, or a cut below, that they should be posting on the BOI.

Now if someone inquires about someone else, then yes, a reply that the posted received adequate service and acceptable merchandise would be in order. But for someone to simply post a new thread saying "Hey I got the ball python I ordered and it was just like it was supposed to be!", well really, do we need to have the BOI filled with those kinds of posts?

A while back there was a guy named Jerry Tubbs who used to tell every single one of his customers to post a positive post about him on the BOI. Now I think that is just a little bit out of line. So yeah, if someone has to pay $10 to post some positive remarks as well, maybe it will limit this to people who have some genuinely outstanding experiences to relate and be willing to pay a minimal fee to do so.

Sure, it will probably reduce the posting. But I think it will be mostly the useless chatter that will go away. Not the real meat and potatoes stuff that really *should* to be on the BOI.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

Now if someone inquires about someone else, then yes, a reply that the posted received adequate service and acceptable merchandise would be in order.

That is what my searches found, inquiries. Thanks for clearing that up. I agree, that is what the BOI should be for.

 

[Vince]

If the disscuison boards are free then I think that there will be a lot of people posting things in that section that should be in the BOI. Like inquiry and bad guys posts.

 

[Clay Davenport]

I'll gladly pay the fee just to use the classifieds. I've advocated that for a long time.
Viewing the BOI must be free though. The whole intent of the forum would be undermined if everyone had to pay just to see it. The idea is to get the word out on the scammers in the industry and that information needs to be available to everyone, from those of us who buy on a regular basis to the guy who just wants to buy one snake and wants to check the sellers reputation.
Would you pay $10 to check the BOI on someone when you don't even know if they've been mentioned on it at all? If a fee is imposed to view the BOI then it will be a service to the scammers. I think it will make it much more likely that they can get away with scamming the small hobbyists and those newer to the hobby, because they will probably not pay the fee just to check them out first. The more you buy the easier it is to justify having a membership, but if you only buy one snake every year or two then it isn't much incentive. These people should still benefit from the information available though, their money is no less important than mine.
I would love to see the BOI remain completely free, but it's obvious that isn't going to happen. There will be a few bad guys who are not reported to the rest of the community, that is inevitable, but I do think the BOI will still function unless viewing is restricted to paying members only.

I guess because I am constantly surprised at my lack of understanding in human beings. Who would have guessed that some people would be incensed enough at the $10 fee to say they will not post on the BOI, out of principle I guess, but that same charge doesn't phaze them on the classifieds?

You can't compare the two equally. I'm not so upset that I would give up on the BOI, but I would rather it was free. The classifieds however are different. The reason is it's advertising which will result in revenue. When you stand to make money from a service it is only reasonable to expect to be charged something for that service. Any advertising, if it brings results at all, is never free. The idea is that the revenue generated will exceed the fee paid by several times, and that revenue might have been lost entirely if the fee wasn't paid.
That's just the reasons for my having no problem with classified fees.

 

[shrap]

I have seen Rich say repeatedly that the BOI would be read only for EVERYONE WHO REGISTERS on this site. Free members will still be able to read, search and utilize the info in the BOI. They just will not be able to post in the BOI unless they pay the $10 membership. Those same guidelines go for the classifieds too. Free members can look all they want, they just can not post.

Rich has also stated that if you are not a paying member here and you or your business is being scrutinized on the BOI, that person or business has 2 choices to defend themselves. Become a paying member or contact Rich and he will grant them a one month pass to defend themselves.

Free members will be able to read AND post in almost all of the other forums on the site.

I think this is more than fair and helps solve many of the problems on many levels here.

I see so many people acting like the BOI will be completely cut off to non paying members when that is not the truth. They will be able to access, read and search on it. They just will not be able to post on it. People will still come here to read it.....that is what 80% of the people already do anyway. Just look at the views compared to posts on most threads. I really do not see where things will be much different in that regard.

 

[WebSlave]

If the disscuison boards are free then I think that there will be a lot of people posting things in that section that should be in the BOI. Like inquiry and bad guys posts.

Yes, I also expect that to happen. But such posts will be deleted, and the offenders levied warning points for the infraction. No one is allowed now to post such things in other forums, and that would not change after a membership fee is put in place.

Now before anyone jumps all over me, yes, there may very well be some of these that are in other forums. But I certainly have not found them or they would not be there.

And yes, problem people will be able to register anew with a false logon and also post in these other forums as well. As long as they behave themselves, they will likely get away with it too. But as soon as it becomes apparent who they are, then their new account will be locked out, and often every post they have made while using that account will be deleted.

No, nothing is going to be perfect. If anyone really is expecting that, well I certainly do hope you are enjoying your first visit to this planet.

 

[Clay Davenport]

I have seen Rich say repeatedly that the BOI would be read only for EVERYONE WHO REGISTERS on this site. Free members will still be able to read, search and utilize the info in the BOI. They just will not be able to post in the BOI unless they pay the $10 membership. Those same guidelines go for the classifieds too. Free members can look all they want, they just can not post.

The first choice in the poll was to charge $10 to view and post on the BOI, not just to post. That's why several people, myself included have talked about the negative impact charging to view it would have.
He made have said repeatedly that viewing would be allowed for free members, but by his making it a choice in the poll not to allow it at least suggests that that was a possibility.

 

[shrap]

I agree Clay. But I think the choices were more of a "feeling people out" type of thing. I am sure (I hope anyway, lol) Rich realizes the importance of keeping the info on the BOI available to all.

 

[Herpkingdom]

I don't post much as can be seen. BUt I have been around lurking for many a year.

I haven't been here in a long while. I left I guess just after the 3rd robbery at Neil's place and the fiasco that followed. Life dictated that I did not have the time toi sit and read hour after hour of the drama that was the board at that time.

Since then I have moved on to other venues.

The only reason I am posting now is to state my opinion on this matter.

Rich started FC as a hobby because he loves reptiles and amphibians. HE created the site and made it free to all. From what I can see in his post his intention was never to start charging for the services provided. This was a way for him to share his love of the hobby with others. At what point did he decide he wanted to make money off the site? Was it after he saw that the member base was over 10,000?

What has changed over the years to make him now want to be compensated for that?

Was is the BOI and all the drama surrounding it? What is the fact that people threaten him because of what other people say? (these same people will post negatively about others.) I am of the opinion that if Rich knew this site would go in the direction is has, he would not have started in the first place.

We all see people making money from using the services here. From small breeder to large. I do advertise my own site on FC, and as Rich has stated, I am one of those people who do it not to help FC but to generate hits to my own site.

I can see both sides to the dilema he faces. He loves the hobby, but he is so fed up with all the BS and having to put out all the monies needed to put ion new features, upgrade the systems and whatever else comes up that is becomes disheartening. The classifieds section should be a fee based feature, period. All sites like this one start out offering this free to all. It draws people to the site. I fully expected to be charged for placing an ad long ago.

Th BOI on the other hand should remain the free feature it has always been. It is too important to the hobby as a whole to lose its effectiveness from a imposed fee. I would suggest getting a better grip on the post. All of the drama can be reigned in but taking control of the forum.

Rich this site is just too damn big for you to try to do it all yourself. Moderators and admins should have been in place to handle the daily chores of the site. In the begining it was fine, but now with the size of this site, it is not. You have to really look to others in the hobby who share the same compasion for it as you do, to help with the site. Trust is earned. If you never give some the chance to help due to what has happened on other sites, then it won't work. Not all people are like the ones that screwed up other sites. Take achance on some of the people here. Make more moderators/admins to handle a lot of the daily BS so you don't have to. If one screws up, demote him/her. Plain and simple. Either they are there to help with the site or not. I am sure it would be a lot less to deal with demoting a moderator then dela with everything. If only one mod out of 12 is bad, then you are 11 ahead.


Public television has an annual drive for getting people to donate in order to keep their programming free of advertisements. FC could institute such a drive. I am sure if one were put together it would generate more then enough money to compensate Rich and cover the cost assocaited with the site. I know the membership of FC would donate to keep the site going. I know that the monies generated by something like this would make me feel I did a great job, as Rich has done, that it was appreciated by those that use the site. Having to institute a fee, I am sure, makes Rich feel bad. THe reaction from members who state that they will leave if a fee is imposed would upset me as it has Rich. After all he has done, all the hours, all the aggrevation, and all the BS.


I guess it comes down to is this still a hobby to him or is this a now a business?

If it is a hobby, then a fee would not be appropriate. A annual fund raising event can be implemented to generate the fund needed for the operation of the site. There are more then enough members who regularly visit the site and are willing to donate say $10 each. If 1000 members donate $10, that is $10,000. And that is not even 10% of the membership base.

If this has now become a business venture, then time to make it one that will generate a profit. Sit down, write a business plan, and then put it in play.

The decision is his to make and his alone. We can voice out opinions (over and over again as seen in all the threads about this topic) but we cannot make the decision for him.

The site is yours Rich.

Business or Hobby?

Jim Dixon

 

[Milwaukee Reptiles]

Unless I misunderstood, everything would still be free except posting on the BOI and posting on the classifieds. That allows people to still search the BOI, use the forums, buy from the classifieds, etc. I believe that will still attract new members..

Which should also mean that advertising is still worth it... you'll still get hits for viewing, just less participators...

 

[robin d.]

ok HONESTLY here do you think ANY of what is being said imput or anything else even being considered.. webslave has three option. period. dont argue he has already made up his mind. just everyone needs to quit suggesting this and that because its not making one bit of a difference..
and rich you just need to just impliment what YOU want no neeed for a poll you have already made up your mind... and in it you didnt even consider some options listed in the other polls... so impliment the fee and lets see what happens... because all of you whom do not like it for whatever reason, it doesnt matter... i really do not even know why a poll was put up in the first place.. webslave as asked for advice in other thread.. other poolls.... look at the numbers
just do it and get it over... cuz personally i am tired of hearing about it/seeing it

 

[dwedeking]

YEA, what she said

 

[liquidleaf]

It seems like a lot of people are upset over the philosophy that the BOI should be a free service. No, $10 isn't much, and if someone feels so strongly about a bad experience they had, or is worried about a possible purchase of $500 for a snake and want to post an inquiry, $10 for a membership really is nothing.

If the BOI is free to VIEW, and the average repeat-post people who don't bother to search before they ask "anyone ever hear of so-and-so?" wind up not paying to post, fine. They'll still find their feedback.

As for ads, even Ebay charges for auctions. But the ad rates do have to compete with KS and other sites until the number of ads and viewing rates begin to approach the competition. The option of "oh, just charge for classifieds" won't cut it without driving people away. Why spend extra to post ads here when they can go to that othe site?

Keeping the site running for free is obviously not an option. I'm a web programmer and have created free informational sites in the past and put them on my server. One of which was to educate kids about women scientists who were prominent through history. A college project I felt strongly enough to keep running after I graduated. But you would not BELIEVE the amount of emails I still get from kids wanting me to look up all sorts of information and email back to them to complete their school projects. Irritating. Got to the point where I stopped even checking that email alias. And that site was TINY potatoes compared to this one.

I haven't been on this site long but see immense value in the BOI. I don't think the BOI will be hurt by requiring paid membership status to REPLY and POST. That way a lot of the bickering and 30 page long back-and-forths will be avoided. Not everyone will be able to chime in. Only those with pertinant info. And the whole "how will I defend myself" issue has been resolved by a 30-day or longer free access for unpaid members if their name is brought up, which is great!

And gee, the fake "This person is a bad guy, they were rude to me on the phone" BOI postings will be avoided because infantile personalities (age regardless) usually do not want to spend money.

Just my thoughts. I'm sure there will be many more suggestions but the options listed are well thought out. If allowed, people will BS forever about how to do something, that's just the way it is, until a deadline is given.

Thanks for providing this resource to everyone out of your own hard work and hard earned cash so far, please don't give up but do what you have to so that running Fauna won't reduce your quality of life, WebSlave!

 

[sirenofthestorm]

I have posted only a few times in the BOI, but I post quite a bit of fluff elsewhere. The reason I don't post in the BOI is that I don't spend any money right now but in a year or two when I'm graduated and all that crap, I'll buy animals online and not just at shows. But until then, I won't be paying any fee. Since there obviously will be a fee implemented, I may or may not come back when I can budget it in.

My main problem is that there is a subtle attitude that the people who have anted up have, that anyone who can't fork over the money right this instant aren't worth anything, and that's their opinion to have. But frankly right now I'd rather spend $10 on a movie with my little sister than here because there are priorities that come before internet sites for me.

By the way, whatever happened to the idea of webslave taking a break from the site? letting the mods handle all the crap emails, go spend a week holed up in a cabin or on a boat somewhere with orders to call only if the site crashes and the server bursts into flames? I can completely understand being too wrapped up in something to the point you lose all pleasure from it. IMHO there are far too few mods here to handle everything. Surely there must be some trustworthy people who don't take crap that could step up to the plate and mod forum groups, with the main mods still handling the BOI.

 

[WebSlave]

Well, so far the poll is showing 53 to 19 for or against. Yeah, I could have added more options, but this gets right down to the nitty gritty. I didn't see any sense to putting a "don't care" option, because that is implied for everyone who DOESN'T vote.

Yeah, I could have put in an option that said something like "I don't like the idea of a fee, but I will still stick around", but I thought the comments in the replies would suffice for that. No, I just wanted a real simple "YES" or "NO" poll, but I had to at least explain what people were voting for, since there was quite a bit of confusion in the earlier polls. No middle of the road stuff if you are going to vote at all.

Yeah, I think I would be justfied to charge more, but I am STILL trying to do everything here as painlessly as possible for me to squeak by. And I STILL have people getting their panties in a bunch and huff at me that they will just go and leave this site if I have the audacity to try to get a little bit out of it for myself. Yeah, right. Like I am going to get rich off of that $10 fee....

Well you know what, beat it. Right now. Don't even wait around for me to finally decide on this issue and implement it. If that is the way you feel, then quite frankly, I really don't care if you stay here or not. Because if that is the way you feel about me and this site, then I really don't want you around anyway. You are just trying to contribute to a self fullfilling prophesy. You are NOT interested in what is best for ME, but only what is best for yourself. So just take yourselves out of the equation and hit the road. Saying that you don't like my proposal is one thing, but saying it is either your way or the highway means YOU get the highway.

I have told people that I would face lawsuits in order to keep their right to post what they want on this site. And people will tell me they will leave if I charge a "piss ant" fee of $10? Quite frankly, YOU don't deserve to USE my site or take anything of value from it. Matter of fact, I have just this moment decided that I AM going to implement this plan. If for no other reason then to give you 19 people the incentive you need to leave. So there. Get your butts off of my site. I am not going to check to see who you are, and I am not going to force you off. All I am doing is saying I am calling your hand with the cards I have on the table.