Bad Guy Fire and Ice Dragons (Terri Sommella)

[chris allen]

I can't even believe what I read here sometimes.

To the OP.....don't ever pay for something that is not ready, let alone not hatched, and that you haven't seen pictures of if you are looking for something specific.

Why people take money for something that is not available yet is beyond me.

All for $300.

 

[aquariumdenizens]

I will show you the pic in 2 weeks when your dragon sheds out since that is what you asked us to do this morning. We will ship the dragon. If you do not like this dragon, return it at your expense for a full refund.

This is pretty ignorant. You've been told multiple times he would like a refund.
But you want him to wait two weeks for you to ship , then have him return it and then you will happily refund him?
Don't you care about the health of your animals?

Seems to me you are doing this for one of two reasons.
1. You don't have the money to return to him at this time.
2. When the animal is returned you may claim it wasn't returned in the same condition.
This is smelling REALLY bad!

 

[PAVLOVK1025]

Ive retyped my reply 4 times and finally arrived at this to sum it up.

<---Team Fire and Ice

SOOOO glad that the BOI witch hunters came out and did their thang.

Drop strong opinion!
Witty rhetoric! WE NEED MORE WITTY RHETORIC!
Some unprofessional professionals' thoughts and opinions.
Burn seller at the stake!

Nobody got ripped off. The dude wanted a dragon enough to pay and wait...then he should wait. WTF is the difference. Its not like he's being told "VE AHR KEEPING ZEE MUHNY AND JOR DRAKON!" They just said give it a second, relax. He has changed his mind from 2 dragons to one, from red to citrus. Maybe he changed his mind over all.

Funny thing...if there was a bad buyer thread, saying this dude paid for something and backed out...there'd be a bunch of folks up his cloaca about his terrible practices.

Ive got the bandwagon pulled up...HOP IN!

 

[KelliH]

Ive retyped my reply 4 times and finally arrived at this to sum it up.

<---Team Fire and Ice

SOOOO glad that the BOI witch hunters came out and did their thang.

Drop strong opinion!
Witty rhetoric! WE NEED MORE WITTY RHETORIC!
Some unprofessional professionals' thoughts and opinions.
Burn seller at the stake!

Nobody got ripped off. The dude wanted a dragon enough to pay and wait...then he should wait. WTF is the difference. Its not like he's being told "VE AHR KEEPING ZEE MUHNY AND JOR DRAKON!" They just said give it a second, relax. He has changed his mind from 2 dragons to one, from red to citrus. Maybe he changed his mind over all.

Funny thing...if there was a bad buyer thread, saying this dude paid for something and backed out...there'd be a bunch of folks up his cloaca about his terrible practices.

Ive got the bandwagon pulled up...HOP IN!

 

[rabernet]

So can Josh. He can admit he was wrong to start this thread and he should have contacted me first. Do you think that will happen?

We will abide by the online Guarantee. To me, that is the most fair way to handle this. Josh gets his money anyway and no compromise to our business ethic is given.

When I first started reading this thread, and your first replies Terri, you sounded like a reasonable seller, and you responded in a mature manner.

While your tone may still sound mature, your message really isn't any longer.

Sitting on the sidelines reading this, at this point it looks like you're willing to dig in your heels so darn deep, that you can't even see how damaging that this stance is to you in the eyes of your peers here.

So what that he brought this to the BOI? I can't think of a single friend of mine in the industry, from small time breeder to large breeders that don't have some flexibility in their TOS.

What it looks like from where I'm sitting is that it's basically boiled down to your point of view of "what's right", which is to rigidly stick to your TOS versus what everyone else who is reading here can clearly see - which is just do the right thing, which is to give the refund and be done with it. Then this thread sinks away, deeper and deeper into the BOI.

What's right versus what's the right thing to do. The majority of the readers and participants in this thread think that the right thing to do is to refund Josh's money. Eat a little humble pie. I wonder if you're a Taurus? I am - and I know how bull headed we get - "there's my way and the wrong way" - and you sure are making it very clear that's your stand right now.

You keep stating he brought this here, so you can no longer work with him, but in reality, your dogged determination to stick by TOS that were so vague that you even admitted that they needed to be re-written is hurting your reputation far more than the nature of this thread ever did.

Just my $.02 and some additional change.

 

[bliss]

Nobody got ripped off. The dude wanted a dragon enough to pay and wait...then he should wait. WTF is the difference. Its not like he's being told "VE AHR KEEPING ZEE MUHNY AND JOR DRAKON!" They just said give it a second, relax. He has changed his mind from 2 dragons to one, from red to citrus. Maybe he changed his mind over all.

Funny thing...if there was a bad buyer thread, saying this dude paid for something and backed out...there'd be a bunch of folks up his cloaca about his terrible practices.

Paying customers should have a choice, the animal, or the money.

Did you read any of Terri's responses on here? The ones where it was clearly stated that she was willing to risk stressing out an animal when it was uncalled for?

Customers come, customers change their mind, sometimes put you through the works... and then sometimes after all of that, they back it. I've had it happen to me, and here recently I've done it a couple times myself (new living arrangements). I have no clue why some sellers get so angry about that.
I get where you are coming from with the "if there was a bad buyer thread", but I would still hold to my same position if that was the case, for the simple fact that Josh was willing to let Terri keep $50 and just send him back $300. That should more than compensate for any inconveniences on Terri's part.. however minute they should be.

 

[rabernet]

If you are truly now remorseful, then return the dragon once it is shipped and you will receive your refund. You have changed your mind many times in one day on several occasions. The only safe way to handle you at this point is to abide by the written Guarantee. Like I said. Many times. You walk away with your refund, while this thread stays forever. Who is not being fair to whom?

This is the most rediculous thing I've ever read. You KNOW he plans to return the animal - but because you just HAVE to be right, you're going to risk the health and well being of an animal? I'm speechless. And the fact that you BELIEVE that's the best way to resolve this? Wow!

 

[Sushi Dragons]

This has become a battle of wills. If Terri refuses to refund the purchase amount and Josh returns the dragon then that just might have to be the way it goes.

Should it go down this way all I can say is... Josh, TAKE PICTURES. Take pictures of everyone and everything as you accept the shipment, repack the dragon (the true victim in all of this) and drop it off at a UPS/FedEx facility for return shipment. Have someone with you to vouch for everything. Take a video and put it on youtube. You must document EVERYTHING from this point forward since the TOS in question is completely up for interpretation.

Terri- Your TOS speaks only of an initial deposit being non-refundable, not the entire purchase price. Most breeders consider a deposit to be roughly 10-20% of the purchase price of the animal. So really, his offer of forfeiting $50 is pretty fair. Please don't ship out that tiny baby in this heat when you know it's going to be coming right back. Shipping is scary and stressful and it's not the dragon's fault that no one seems to want her. Please don't make the poor dragon suffer when the end result will be a refund either way.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Thanks Kelli and Pavy I was going to leave it alone, because actually the situation is SO simple that it should have been resolved quickly.

Fire & Ice, some of us can see the forest for the trees. We do realize that the buyer probably had buyer's remorse, it happens.

As to why he would wait so long....theorically, perhaps he had enough people telling him that they could sell him one better and cheaper, perhaps he didn't need the money till now. I don't know WHY, I do know that he changed his mind enough times in the beginning of the transaction to make this theorical situation a "possibility."

The point of the thread is: The buyer has once again changed his mind (doesn't matter why because his fears were proved to be unfounded) and now wants a refund. You, on the other hand want to stick to your TOS (for whatever reason) however, your TOS actually is vague...I would have thought that asking for an unhatched egg and special consideration of the pick of the litter would be grouped under the Special on the TOS..... but again as pointed out many times..the TOS is too vague.

To the community: I am surprised at how quickly it turned to being SELLER wrong. Truely the ONLY difference in the behavior of the seller and customer that I can see is HE POSTED the THREAD FIRST.

Terri, I realized (too late) that you may not have been able see the remark next to the "Good Karma" that I left when the thread first started and before it degraded to this point. What I wrote was:

"You can't win them all, refund his money and cut him loose."

Honestly, this thread has the capacity to be blown up beyond all comprehension as it is now getting into the arena of your dragon care and willingness to risk animal's health.

I would refund his money before the accusations of "Spending the buyer's money before he has the product" start in earnest; some are already casting shadows over your feelings for the dragons you breed.

((((ducks and runs)))

 

[shinezilla]

This is the most rediculous thing I've ever read. You KNOW he plans to return the animal...

answer...

Customers come, customers change their mind...

What if he ends up liking it once he gets it

This is getting played out... Either Terri agrees to refund his money or Josh waits.

Until one of them folds, this whole thing is just another back and forth.

 

[spyder79]

To the OP

How exactly did you pay for this?

I know you used paypal but did you use your bank account through paypal or a credit card? If you used a credit card contact your credit card company and see what they can do for you. If you used your bank account you are SOL in that regard. If that dragon ends up at your home I would keep it and either grow it or sell it and recoop some of your losses. If you ship it back to Fire and Ice you will be just as bad as them. Some battles you have to lose to win.

 

[PAVLOVK1025]

Paying customers should have a choice, the animal, or the money.

Did you read any of Terri's responses on here? The ones where it was clearly stated that she was willing to risk stressing out an animal when it was uncalled for?

Customers come, customers change their mind, sometimes put you through the works... and then sometimes after all of that, they back it. I've had it happen to me, and here recently I've done it a couple times myself (new living arrangements). I have no clue why some sellers get so angry about that.
I get where you are coming from with the "if there was a bad buyer thread", but I would still hold to my same position if that was the case, for the simple fact that Josh was willing to let Terri keep $50 and just send him back $300. That should more than compensate for any inconveniences on Terri's part.. however minute they should be.

Paying customers....he never paid for an animal. He paid for an unhatched egg. He paid for a SHOT at an animal from a clutch that MIGHT hatch out on this EXPECTED date.

If that clutch that he's so adamant about DIED in the bator....would he have come here saying it's taking too long? He paid to wait....so he should STFU AND WAIT!

The BOI is not for people to come and gripe and complain....I understand if he wasn't getting in touch with the seller but he is in full communication with her. This thread is just another baseless whiny brat customer thread, for your amusement and entertainment, all because it took too long.

Why do sellers get mad? Because we have to turn easy going transactions to deal with garbage like this.

 

[omni]

If you are truly now remorseful, then return the dragon once it is shipped and you will receive your refund. You have changed your mind many times in one day on several occasions. The only safe way to handle you at this point is to abide by the written Guarantee. Like I said. Many times. You walk away with your refund, while this thread stays forever. Who is not being fair to whom?

What the???? Are you kidding?!
The "safe way"??? This is the about most risky way to resolve this. Requiring double shipping of a tender young dragon to just then refund Josh, well...

I agree with others that there is no money to refund. spent. Be easiest way to get out of a troublesome transaction to just refund and not have an animal you produced end up in hands of someone you don't "trust". I take it a boi on F&I means there might not be many more sales coming in and less chance of actually getting the $$ to send said refund. That's why it should've been private "shhhhhhhh! don't let anyone know there was any trouble!"
LOL
"abide by the written Guarantee" eh?
this has been shown to have changed at least a couple times when a situation came up that the F&I TOS didn't cover. 1 buyer out of a thousand? Yeh, will be those rough deals. Nobody wins, but the business does save face and not look too bad to just write it off and send refund. OP even offerred $50 for partial refund! Bingo! make a lil somethin for the trouble of posting in the thread and go back to biz as usual.

I have not yet bought my 1st beardie. I do plan on one, they are soute. I will have to see what my snake budget looks like next year. BUT I will buy, and I am seeing who I shall not be buying from, vague TOS, inflexible seller, questionable care for animals well-being vs. $$... Definately not buying from F&I.

"Bend over backwards for your customers"? Don't see you bending very far for Josh. Nope not budging 1 inch! He gives you the ultimate out, and still you won't compromise. Phooey! Thread deserved.

 

[PAVLOVK1025]

turn away*

 

[omni]

** "I do plan on one, they are soute"
meant 'so cute'

 

[Craigh]

To the community: I am surprised at how quickly it turned to being SELLER wrong. Truely the ONLY difference in the behavior of the seller and customer that I can see is HE POSTED the THREAD FIRST.

I always thought the BOI was for the readers to see both sides and make up their own minds . Just cause people have a different opinion doesn't mean they jumped on a band wagon cause someone posted something first. I agree at first I did think it was buyers remorse. But after following the thread and seeing how Terri was unwilling to even take a picture of said dragon and willingness to jeopardize the Dragons health just cause someone posted on the BOI is ridiculous. I still find her TOS to be vague and can't see how a unhatched egg is a special order. ( IMHO )

But after seeing the way she handles things and rewrites her TOS after things went wrong would make me wary of ever ordering from her.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Paying customers....he never paid for an animal. He paid for an unhatched egg. He paid for a SHOT at an animal from a clutch that MIGHT hatch out on this EXPECTED date.

If that clutch that he's so adamant about DIED in the bator....would he have come here saying it's taking too long? He paid to wait....so he should STFU AND WAIT!

The BOI is not for people to come and gripe and complain....I understand if he wasn't getting in touch with the seller but he is in full communication with her. This thread is just another baseless whiny brat customer thread, for your amusement and entertainment, all because it took too long.

Why do sellers get mad? Because we have to turn easy going transactions to deal with garbage like this.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I always thought the BOI was for the readers to see both sides and make up their own minds . Just cause people have a different opinion doesn't mean they jumped on a band wagon cause someone posted something first. I agree at first I did think it was buyers remorse. But after following the thread and seeing how Terri was unwilling to even take a picture of said dragon and willingness to jeopardize the Dragons health just cause someone posted on the BOI is ridiculous. I still find her TOS to be vague and can't see how a unhatched egg is a special order. ( IMHO )

But after seeing the way she handles things and rewrites her TOS after things went wrong would make me wary of ever ordering from her.

That WAS an unwise move, and I can agree with your conclusions; but they are both wrong; the customer (if I dealt with dragons) his behavior has turned me off ever dealing with him, and unfortunately, her response has damaged her reputation.

 

[spyder79]

That WAS an unwise move, and I can agree with your conclusions; but they are both wrong; the customer (if I dealt with dragons) his behavior has turned me off ever dealing with him, and unfortunately, her response has damaged her reputation.

I doubt this post has even put a smear on this company. Fire and Ice have been around for many many years and just like some of the other "big name" breeders in the biz the majority of their customer base could care less what is said on the BOI. At the end of the day this entire post was futile for all of us. Did it bring some things to light to those of us that read the BOI? Yes. I know I for one won't ever be doing biz with fire and ice. But the problem is there are thousands that still will cause they will never read this. Hell, if you didn't notice they didn't even have an account on here till this got posted. So I doubt any of their customers have ever even brought the boi up to them.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I doubt this post has even put a smear on this company. Fire and Ice have been around for many many years and just like some of the other "big name" breeders in the biz the majority of their customer base could care less what is said on the BOI. At the end of the day this entire post was futile for all of us. Did it bring some things to light to those of us that read the BOI? Yes. I know I for one won't ever be doing biz with fire and ice. But the problem is there are thousands that still will cause they will never read this. Hell, if you didn't notice they didn't even have an account on here till this got posted. So I doubt any of their customers have ever even brought the boi up to them.

Good, point. I should have been more clear.

"Damaged her reputation HERE among those of us who do read the BOI."

But, I wouldn't underestimate the power of "word of mouth."