First-timer has questions...

[Big Papa Dilly]

I recently took in 2 beardies -- their former owner just wasn't "up to it" anymore. The male, Walter, is ~1yr old and the female, Opal, is ~1.5yrs old. According to the previous owner, they have been living together (for almost a year) in a 55gal tank. Almost as soon as they moved in, we noticed a LOT of aggressive behavior on Walter's part towards Opal. Then it happened...

One day in mid-December, I looked up and they were mid-coitus. This lasted for a few minutes and then they separated. A few minutes later, they were at it again. This went on ALL day -- a few minutes of rest, then back to business. I haven't seen any other action since.

At first I thought, "That was cool. I wonder if she'll have eggs." I figured that I had several weeks ahead of watching her grow larger -- during which I would prepare a lay box, acquire an incubator, learn about hatchlings, etc. Little did I know that "several" weeks was really more like 3. I was hanging out with Opal last night and was surprised to feel several distinct (yet soft) bulges in her belly.

As soon as I got to work today, I logged on and started researching in earnest. Almost right away, I found the sticky thread about beardie breeding -- and felt like a brick hit me when I read that gestation only lasts 20-30 days.

Needless to say, I'm a little behind the curve now and am looking for advice...

1 - Where can I get an incubator ASAP? And advice on using it? I live in Cedar Park, TX (suburb of Austin). It looks like the Hova-bator is pretty much the standard. Can I use it as-is?

2 - Opal has been scratching at the sides of her tank since last night. I think this means it's time to move her to a lay-box. Any other signs I can watch for? I don't want to move her too early but I definitely don't wan't to move her too late.

3 - What will I need on-hand for the hatchlings? Salad? Pinheads (how many)?

4 - I'm open to general advice here...

Thanks in advance. I know y'all won't let me down!
-Dallas

 

[Tere Salazar]

Okay...I'm going to try to answer some of your questions, but will probably leave stuff out because I haven't had my coffee yet.

You can get a Hovabator at www.lllreptile.com You want a standard one, not one with a fan. I can't remember off the top of my head how much they cost but they're not too expensive. You also need some little bowls. What we always used was sandwich containers, I believe Ziploc makes them. You could also use larger bowls of about that same depth. You'll want to poke holes around the top edge of the bowls. You'll also need some vermiculite for the eggs to sit in inside the bowls. The vermiculite should be wet, but not dripping. Make dimples in the vermiculite with your thumb and that's where the egg will go so it won't move around too much.

Has Opal stopped eating yet? That would be the other sign. She's got the two we always watched for, frantic "I have to escape" behavior and feeling eggs. Please keep in mind the lay box needs to be pretty good size. More like a gigantic tub than a box. We always used Bed-a-Beast as the substrate in our lay bins. Just follow the directions on the Bed-a-Beast to get it to the right wetness, clamp a heat lamp on the bin, start a hole for her, and she should do the rest.

You'll have salad on hand for the hatchlings anyway, assuming that's what you're feeding the adults. And most times, babies don't eat for a couple of days after they're born, so that gives you time to order their crickets. We always got 1/8" crickets from www.reptilefood.com You'll need to keep a close eye on size because it does vary from company to company, and dragons shouldn't eat anything larger than the space between their eyes. But I can tell you our babies never would touch pinheads for some reason.

Last but not least, please separate Opal from Walter. It's very possible for him to stress her out if he's bugging her to breed. Make sure Opal gets lots of calcium after she lays to replace what she lost to the eggs. And once she's laid, give her a nice, warm bath so she can clean up and get a drink. You'll have to empty the water between cleaning up and drinking, BTW.

 

[Big Papa Dilly]

Thank you so much! I did some shopping around and I managed to find an incubator for sale not too far from where I live. It's not a Hova-Bator, but it looks like the EXACT same thing. I'll be picking it up this weekend, along with the vermiculite & bowls. I was kind of freaked out last night though -- afraid Opal would start laying -- and so I found a bag of topsoil that didn't have any fertilizers in it, moistened the dirt a little, and made a lay-box for her. It's pretty small though -- only about 30 gallons. After reading your note, I think I need something bigger. Once the box warmed up a little, I put Opal in. She hasn't done much since. She's not laying, but she's not eating or doing much else either. She climbed up the pile on that side and has just been hanging out there since. She'll move a little from time to time, but no digging. I'm not sure what that means. Did I move her too early? How long should I leave her in the lay box? I feel like it would be stupid to move her back into her cage until she's laid, but the lay-box is pretty austere -- I feel bad leaving her in there when it could be another week for all I know. I chopped up some prickly pears (she likes those) and put them in a little dish at the clean end, but she could care less. If you don't mind, I've got a few more questions...

1 - How big of a hole should I start? Are we talking just a couple of inches across & down?
2 - Any downside to using topsoil in the lay-box? I know impaction is always a risk. Should I mix it with play sand?

Thanks again for the advice. And I do plan to separate the two of them. I'm working on a custom setup where they'll be side-by-side, but in separate tanks where they can't see each other. Christmas threw a wrench into things b/c I couldn't work in the garage (hiding gifts).

 

[Tere Salazar]

They can sometimes take a couple of days before they're "ready", and can sometimes be a bit picky about where they are. You want her in a real quiet room, for starters, and you want to put her in the bin AFTER the dirt is nice and warm from the heat lamp (which it sounds like you did). If you mix the dirt with hot water, that helps warm it up quicker, as well. There is no problem using topsoil, as long as it doesn't have chemicals in it.

A 30 gallon should be good, actually...just make the dirt slope so that it's got that big hill (which it sounds like you already did). In about the middle of that hill (which is also where you want to point the heat lamp), start her a hole with your hand, and you can then stick a plastic drinking cup into the hole and pack the dirt around it, so it's nice and stable...and won't fall in on her head.

The dirt for the lay bin, you want to be wet enough to hold shape when you squish it, but not so wet that water drips from it. And yes, you could add some playsand if you wish. I don't know that I'd feed her in the lay bin, and that way, you won't have to worry about her getting impacted.

She may just not be ready yet, that's all. After you feel the eggs, and after they stop eating...between those two things and her being frantic to get out of her enclosure, that's when she's ready. Believe me, there'll be no doubt in your mind when you see this behavior.

It's certainly not going to hurt her to be in the lay bin, but if you're worried about it bothering her, put her back in her enclosure and try again tomorrow. Mine always laid mid-afternoon, early evening, so that's when I'd put them in the bin. It may take her a couple of tries to "get" what she's supposed to do there, but she will figure it out.

You may also want to try giving her a nice warm bath up to her armpits. Don't push around on her belly, just let her soak. Sometimes, that gets things moving, so to speak.

I've got my fingers crossed for you! You're getting ready to have a wonderful bonding experience between you and Opal. And I'm super glad you're planning on separating them. It really will be better for her, in the long run.

Can't wait to see some pics of her and Walter!

 

[Big Papa Dilly]

We have eggs!!

So Opal started digging Friday night and dug ALL NIGHT LONG. I got up Saturday (the 10th) and she had cleared all of the dirt away from one corner of the lay box and was still "digging" that corner clear. I hopped in the shower and when I got out, I noticed that she was now digging in the opposite corner. And not just digging, but digging with a vengeance. She had already managed to shift almost the entire pile of dirt to the opposite end of the box -- to the corner she had been digging in earlier. I went to tell my wife and when I came back I noticed it...Opal was skinny. And not just skinny, but SKINNY. I'm talkin' Kate Moss on crack skinny. Folds of skin just wrinklin' up on her ribs skinny. I very gently lifted the box and sure enough there were eggs. : My oldest son counted 20 just from looking through the bottom of the box. After placing Opal in a warm bath, we began the excavation...

A short time later, we had uncovered a total of 23 eggs. I couldn't find the Hova-Bator, but I got something from my local Tractor Supply Company that looks almost identical. It's called the "Little Giant Still Air Incubator" (model 9200 -- no fan, no egg turner). After filling the bottom section with water and making sure it would hold at 82 degrees, I filled 4 Rubbermaid sandwhich containers with moistened Perlite (I couldn't find Vermiculite anywhere -- it seems to be mostly a spring/summer only item here) and very carefully transferred the eggs. They've been incubating ever since. One started to look a little dimpled yesterday, but I candled it and there are spider-veins all over, so I am assuming it's okay. I very lightly misted the inside pf the incubator yesterday when I noticed it, just in case it was a lack of moisture. Which leads me to my question...

Should I poke holes in them and put the lids on the Rubbermaid containers? I've seen other people do this and I assume it's to raise the humidity, but a) there's water in the bottom of the incubator, b) Beardies are native to Australia, a naturally arid location -- not generally very humid, and c) the Perlite was very moist when initially placed. Is the increased humidity really necessary?

Hope to post pics soon!!!

 

[Tere Salazar]

So Opal started digging Friday night and dug ALL NIGHT LONG. I got up Saturday (the 10th) and she had cleared all of the dirt away from one corner of the lay box and was still "digging" that corner clear. I hopped in the shower and when I got out, I noticed that she was now digging in the opposite corner. And not just digging, but digging with a vengeance. She had already managed to shift almost the entire pile of dirt to the opposite end of the box -- to the corner she had been digging in earlier. I went to tell my wife and when I came back I noticed it...Opal was skinny. And not just skinny, but SKINNY. I'm talkin' Kate Moss on crack skinny. Folds of skin just wrinklin' up on her ribs skinny. I very gently lifted the box and sure enough there were eggs. : My oldest son counted 20 just from looking through the bottom of the box. After placing Opal in a warm bath, we began the excavation...

A short time later, we had uncovered a total of 23 eggs. I couldn't find the Hova-Bator, but I got something from my local Tractor Supply Company that looks almost identical. It's called the "Little Giant Still Air Incubator" (model 9200 -- no fan, no egg turner). After filling the bottom section with water and making sure it would hold at 82 degrees, I filled 4 Rubbermaid sandwhich containers with moistened Perlite (I couldn't find Vermiculite anywhere -- it seems to be mostly a spring/summer only item here) and very carefully transferred the eggs. They've been incubating ever since. One started to look a little dimpled yesterday, but I candled it and there are spider-veins all over, so I am assuming it's okay. I very lightly misted the inside pf the incubator yesterday when I noticed it, just in case it was a lack of moisture. Which leads me to my question...

Should I poke holes in them and put the lids on the Rubbermaid containers? I've seen other people do this and I assume it's to raise the humidity, but a) there's water in the bottom of the incubator, b) Beardies are native to Australia, a naturally arid location -- not generally very humid, and c) the Perlite was very moist when initially placed. Is the increased humidity really necessary?

Hope to post pics soon!!!

Oh, congratulations! Your little Kate Moss skinny Opal (which absolutely cracks me up, thank you) should fatten back up nicely after a few weeks. I'm sure she's extremely relieved to have those eggs out of her! Just make sure she's getting plenty of calcium.

Yes, the added moisture is needed. If the eggs look shriveled or dimpled, it's definitely time to rewet the Perlite. I used to use a spray bottle set on the stream setting to do this so as not to directly spray the eggs. Using the lids helps retain the moisture, so that's definitely a good thing. If you notice the top edge of the bowl sweating, that's also a good thing...as long as that sweat isn't on the lid dripping onto the eggs.

So don't you just love your little Opal 23 times more now? Congrats again, and can't wait to see the little ones!

 

[Gina Gauvin]

incubation, hatching...

Congrats on your first batch! and yes you should put the lids on the tupperware containers. And you should have a few holes in the sides for air. I had used a container that was thick so I couldn't get holes in it, so I slid the lid a little aside. Well, one morning I go in that room to take care of some beardies and I hear this rattling sound and thought a mouse had gotten in the house. I walk around to where I can still hear it, and it's coming from the incubator! ) I lift a corner slightly and see about a dozen babies had gotten out of the container and were running around loose on the screen. Too cute! I don't keep loose water in the bottom of the incubater though. I keep a small cup of water in one of the corners for extra humidity.
Be careful how much humidity and wetness you have, or you could get mold. I hate perlite because water sinks and the top get's dry which gives you the wrong impression of how much humidity is there. I find vermiculite at Lowe's or Homedepot.
Check your eggs once a week. If they're dimpling put a few more drops of water around them and if they don't fill in by the next day, lay a wet papertowel on them for a day but don't forget to take it off the next day.
If you notice mold starting get a 2nd container and add vermiculite or perlite to that and add a less amount of water so it's got a small amount of moisture. Remove the eggs that have mold to the 2nd container being sure you don't turn over the eggs. Leave the lid slid over on the first container for a few days to dry out the perlite enough to stop more mold from growing. Remove that section of perlite with mold.
If the mold's not that bad they may still hatch. I have had moldy eggs hatch but you have to catch it in time. Eggs can hatch anywhere inbetween 55-75 days usually but some take longer. If they haven't sunk in or rotted they may still be viable. You don't want to throw them out to have them hatch in a garbage bag.
When they start to hatch you may see them start to sweat or dimple and the make a slit and stick their head out. They stay in that position about 24 hours because they're absorbing the eggsack. It's important to not disturb them or give them light, or take them out. Otherwise they won't finish absorbing their first important meal. And if you help you may kill.
At that time prepare a small tank like a 10gal lined with papertowel. I use a piece of artificial vine to curve in there because it's easy for them to climb and it doesn't harbor uneaten crickets but you can use a small rock.
I check the incubator once daily, usually midmorning. They may take 3-7 days to hatch and you collect the ones that hatch daily, being careful not to disturb the ones that aren't ready. It's important to lay something on the incubator windows to keep the light out thru their incubation also.
Once they're hatched you place in the tank, mist with warm water twice a day. Don't bother feeding the first few days because they won't eat. Mist though. On the 3rd day I sprinkle very finely chopped collard greens onto the papertowel slowly so it resembles bugs moving. Do that daily until; they try it and learn it tastes good. You can also add 1/4in crickets in small amounts daily after the 3rd day but not too many or they get scared.
I feed them crickets twice a day giving them as many as they'll eat in 5 minutes but you don't wat to leave crickets in there overnight because they can eat toes and eyelids if hungry.
Well, sorry for rambling on but I know it's a scary experience first time around. They're like our scaly kids! And if at first you don't succeed, don't worry they'll try again!

 

[Gina Gauvin]

Here's some cuties! They sometimes feel the need to defend as seen in the 2nd pic!

 

[Big Papa Dilly]

Pics of Incubator & Parents!

Okay, so here's the incubator setup I've got going on at my house...

The eggs have been placed into 4x Rubbermaid sandwich containers (6 eggs each in 3, 5 in the last). Each container has moistened Perlite (which I also hate; and for the same reason all the water sinks to the bottom). The temp is holding steady at 82 degrees F.

No mold, no yucky smells, the one dimpled egg is dimpled no more -- I hate to say it for fear of a jinx , but things seem to be going pretty well right now.

Some pictures are attached of the setup and of the proud parents. Opal is the lighter colored female on the rock. Despite several baths, she's still pretty dirty on the nose & elbows -- she was a digging machine for a few days. I think she might just need to shed before she looks clean again. Walter is the darker male on the right. He's in shed right now, so he looks like crud. Their accomodations are pretty sparse for the moment, but I'm working on building them a custom enclosure that will have 2 separate areas so they won't be housed together anymore. I picked up an old display counter with built in sliding acrylic doors for $15 when my local Wal-Mart decided to redecorate. I'm gutting it and rebuilding it as a custom tank. It'll have built-in heat & lighting when it's all said & done -- but that's another thread.

My real reason for posting today is to put up the pictures though. So, without further ado...

 

[Gina Gauvin]

Great job!

Looks like you did a great job! If you want you can pick up a humidity gage to see if it's about right but I honestly don't know what % humidity it should be. ) So do it the old fashion way and watch and see! If you check it every other day and notice a light white dust on them, it's the beginning of mold so follow the steps I mentioned in the previous post.
If you have water in the bottom of that incubator floor I'd take it out and just keep a small coffee cup in the corner with about 1/2 a cup of water. If your babies get loose they won't drown that way.
Keep an eye out for vermiculite so you have it for the next batch. I heard eggs should be about an inch and a half apart but I put each batch in a container and they're ok if you watch them. But you know how that old saying goes..Don't put all your eggs in one basket?
By the way, your gal may be fertilized enough with one breeding to lay a few more batches. Once bred they can lay eggs as early as 2 weeks after breeding but she may hold them up to a few months. Your probably thinking omg where can I fit them? You may be able to sit more containers on top of the others if they're sandwich size.
Just tape a piece of paper on each tray with the date so your not confused and then write the date on the calender as well as count 60days and circle it so that week you'll be prepared.
Have fun! I just got done digging up 21 eggs myself!

 

[Beardiepal]

You have done a really great job !!!!! You learned quickly, about the same way I did....in a hurry !!! LOL. Take good care Beth

 

[Big Papa Dilly]

UPDATE -- Day 60 / Day 5

So...much has happened here at Big Papa's house since last we spoke. To begin with... Opal laid 20 more eggs on March 5th. I knew that she had become gravid but wasn't sure exactly when, so I was just watching her belly & behavior. When I could feel distinct marble shapes in her belly and she started frantically digging in her cage, I knew it was time. I setup the lay box and within a few hours she had laid 20 more eggs. I waited for her to stop being maternal (although she kept a MIGHTY sharp eye on me while I did my work) and proceeded to dig up the newbies. I shifted the now almost ready-to-hatch eggs to 2 containers (from 4) and used the 2 (now empty) containers to put the new ones in. I know it's not as roomy as before, but it's the best I can manage for now. I candled the 1st clutch a few days ago and was delighted to see moving tails & legs inside every one we examined. I don't want to jinx it, but I think we're still 23 for 23 and 20 for 20. We'll see when they hatch. I swear, it's all I can think about! How do you STAND IT!?!?!

OK, on to practical matters. I'm about to be confronted with 23 (hopefully) little beardies who will ALL expect me to know what the heck I'm doing -- which I obviously do not. I picked up 4 approximately shoebox sized plastic boxes that I was going to keep them in (5 or 6 per box). I figured I'd just used paper towels cut to fit the bottom? What about light/heat? I was debating just taking an old screen cover I had for a 20 gallon and laying it across the tops of all 4, but I'm not sure how tight it would fit. I guess I could lay the light across the top, but I'm not sure if they would/could burn themselves if they were to climb onto the screen and hang upside down (I've seen my kids do weirder things). As always, any advice is appreciated.

Hope you enjoy the pics!!! Still working on the deluxe accomodations, but progress is being made. Look for a future post on that subject.

 

[Big Papa Dilly]

Update - Day 77/22

Still no hatchlings. Opal gained all of her weight right back -- I slipped her a few waxworms & butterworms that nobody else got (shhhh!). I'm making some really good progress on the custom (and separate) housing, so they'll only be housed together a little longer. I'm trying to dissuade any amorous actions on Walter's part in the meantime. I'm sure they probably go at it like rabbits while I'm at work, but I'm trying!

The new eggs have grown considerably (all things being relative) in the past few weeks. They're losing the pink quality ang becoming whiter. The shells appear thicker, too, although this may just be due to the white color (or vice-versa).

Until next time...

 

[Gina Gauvin]

Whoa, baby beardies need to thermoregulate like adults do, so those shoe boxes aren't going to do! Check out your local petshops for 2nd hand ten gal tanks and screen lids. You'll need one for each batch. And I wouldn't candle them anymore because it can cause damage. If they don't go bad within a few weeks they're usually good to go, unless allowed to dry out or overheat, etc.
They can hatch anywhere from 55-70 days but I've heard them hatch at 80. Depends on individual and care. Watch for dimpleing on the eggs bu8t leave them alone. When they stick their head out, they usually sit in the egg and absorb the eggsack. That's important to let them rest and that's their first meal. they could all hatch within a day, but may spread out over the course of a week or two. If it can't get out of the egg on it's own, it's not going to survive.
Once they start hatchening I just check the container once a day, in the morning. I remove just the fully hatched babies into their tank, and put the rest away till the next day. If you disturb them more than that, they come out with eggsacks attached and you'll need to leave them in the incubator an extra day to be absorbed, or risking the eggsack drying out.
Keep the bare necessities in the baby tank. You don't want to give the crickets places to hide. It's important to have the crickets gone before lights out. I use papertowel as the substrate, changing daily. It's important to keep them clean as the mortality rate is highest in the first month. Use either a vine or low rock to bask, and that's it. No waterbowl to drown in.
Mist them well daily till they stop drinking. Sprinkle greens in daily on the floor to teach them they're good. Offer food (greens or 1/4in crickets), on the 2nd day. Don't dump in too many at once because they will be scared of them at first.
They should have a basking light also but no light at night. Just keep in mind they have tiny bodies and will dry out quicker than an adult if they don't drink or eat hydrating foods.
I have a caresheet on; myspace.com/ornatesky

Good luck and congratulations! I have 6wk & 2wk olds as well as another due to hatch. I'm going thru 2000 crix a week

 

[Big Papa Dilly]

BIG UPDATE!!

First hatchling poked his head out Saturday night. 2 others had busted the shell, but no heads were out. Sunday, the first hatchling was already shooting around the incubator at 100+ mph. Removed him to his new home, a shoebox-sized Sterilite container with the top cut out for light, but with a good 2"+ lip on the edge so they can't hop out. I plan to cut the lid back further and add some screen on top, but I digress... The other two popped their heads out Sunday morning and by Sunday night were also crawling around, shoving their unhatched brethren around. They too, were removed to the nursery. Right now, they've got a paper towel on the floor (damp, but not wet), a ~1/4" (deep) stone dish for finely chopped greens, a rock directly under the light for basking, and a small artificial vine (no leaves) to play on. They seem to enjoy it. One slept on the rick last night, the other two slept on the vine. It was SO CUTE -- they had been hanging out on the vine and as SOON as the light was turned off, they both lowered their little heads down and closed their eyes. Precious!

My wife just texted me at the office to let me know 3 more have busted through, 1 of which has his head out. Looks like things are moving apace...

Also, just as an aside, I've almost got one half of the new tank ready for Walter & Opal (the mom & dad) so they should be separated soon! I'll let y'all know as things progress.

 

[quasireptile]

Holy moley. Looks like everything came out great. Congrats! I've never had eggies so I wouldn't know what to do. Probably feels like human birth. Wow. Again, congrats!