Gecko_Den
New member
LOL, Cat beat me by about 20 seconds... 
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Posted 08/15/2025
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Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....
FIRSTBALLMORPHS - Joe Goodnough - BAD, BAD, BAD!
- Thread starter Christy Talbert
- Start date
Cat_72
Back from exile :)
I have to admit, I'd looked at this guys ad a couple of times with some interest, I'm glad that this information was brought up. I'd sure like to hear what Joe has to say, but it doesn't look like he has the uh, courage. LOL.
Joe,
There’s not much you can do but make things right. Here are the facts:
1. You said you were going to ship DHL but you shipped USPS. You tried to save a few dollars but in the process broke a federal law.
2. The male weighed 330 g and not 586 g.
3. You sold the male as “proven” when he probably attempted to copulate at best. You can discuss it with any reptile breeder, but the term proven implies having produced viable offspring. For this animal to be proven he should have bred females close to 6 months ago. With his current weight, at that point in time he was more than likely in the egg himself.
4. The females weighed 535 and 721 and not 1,200 g.
Considering all the misrepresentation you incurred in above it stands to reason why Christy doesn’t feel comfortable with sending first the snakes first for a full. I wouldn’t either. On the other hand it is not common practice to ask for a refund first and send any merchandise later. It wouldn’t be fair to ask it from anyone. The $1,000 compensation Christy is asking from you seems reasonable. You are a phone call or a click of the mouse away from solving this issue, the ball is in your court (in more ways than one).
There’s not much you can do but make things right. Here are the facts:
1. You said you were going to ship DHL but you shipped USPS. You tried to save a few dollars but in the process broke a federal law.
2. The male weighed 330 g and not 586 g.
3. You sold the male as “proven” when he probably attempted to copulate at best. You can discuss it with any reptile breeder, but the term proven implies having produced viable offspring. For this animal to be proven he should have bred females close to 6 months ago. With his current weight, at that point in time he was more than likely in the egg himself.
4. The females weighed 535 and 721 and not 1,200 g.
Considering all the misrepresentation you incurred in above it stands to reason why Christy doesn’t feel comfortable with sending first the snakes first for a full. I wouldn’t either. On the other hand it is not common practice to ask for a refund first and send any merchandise later. It wouldn’t be fair to ask it from anyone. The $1,000 compensation Christy is asking from you seems reasonable. You are a phone call or a click of the mouse away from solving this issue, the ball is in your court (in more ways than one).
Should have read:
Considering all the misrepresentation you incurred in above it stands to reason why Christy doesn’t feel comfortable with sending the snakes first for a full refund.
dzoo
New member
I see nothing wrong with Christy asking for the money first. Joe owned the snakes, Christy sent him $5,000 for them. Now Christy owns the snakes, and is asking Joe to buy them back for $5,000, so he should send the money first as Christy did to him.
On a side note, has anyone ever tried an Escrow service? They hold the funds until both parties are satisfied with a deal - Might be a good idea in some of these high dollar transactions. https://www.escrow.com/index.asp
On a side note, has anyone ever tried an Escrow service? They hold the funds until both parties are satisfied with a deal - Might be a good idea in some of these high dollar transactions. https://www.escrow.com/index.asp
Jon,
Although I understand your point, this is a return and not a new sale. When you buy a reptile and then want to return it, that's what you do, you return it for a full refund. In fact the seller usually inspects it before even issuing the refund to make sure it's in good shape. By asking for a full refund before sending the snakes you are leaving the seller with no recourse whatsoever. Nine out of ten times (if not 10/10!)the answer will be no. You don't want to put no one in that situation, particularly when you want to return an animal. Then again this is something they will have to work between them. The idea of the escrow is a good one. We have even used it here in the BOI in the past.
Regards.
Chameleon Company
New member
Call it a "Sell-Back" then ..
I think we all understand the normal nature of a return, whether it be at Wal-Mart or with a reputable breeder. In this instance though, it is not "normal", and like Jon, it is not what I would do. The seller has shown himself to be untrustworthy on both the initial sale and the first attempt to fix it. To follow the "what you do" sequence that you identify would mean that Joe would then have all the money and all the snakes, and we'd be trusting him to then do the right thing? After he has already shown himself to be untrustworthy, and maybe short on funds as well? Do we abandon common sense? Under these "not-normal" circumstances, Christy has legal standing to require Joe to either buy them back, or file civil action against him. Joe could then request the use of the escrow agent, and Christy would lose most of that legal standing if she did not accept. As you note, I do not expect Joe to come up with a full refund, and it is likely this can be resolved in a far easier manner with a partial refund. I agree also that just as the use of an escrow agent would have been wise for the initial purchase, it would be just as wise for the full-price return.
I think we all understand the normal nature of a return, whether it be at Wal-Mart or with a reputable breeder. In this instance though, it is not "normal", and like Jon, it is not what I would do. The seller has shown himself to be untrustworthy on both the initial sale and the first attempt to fix it. To follow the "what you do" sequence that you identify would mean that Joe would then have all the money and all the snakes, and we'd be trusting him to then do the right thing? After he has already shown himself to be untrustworthy, and maybe short on funds as well? Do we abandon common sense? Under these "not-normal" circumstances, Christy has legal standing to require Joe to either buy them back, or file civil action against him. Joe could then request the use of the escrow agent, and Christy would lose most of that legal standing if she did not accept. As you note, I do not expect Joe to come up with a full refund, and it is likely this can be resolved in a far easier manner with a partial refund. I agree also that just as the use of an escrow agent would have been wise for the initial purchase, it would be just as wise for the full-price return.
Chamco said:
Jim,
Not even in my wildest dreams would I consider sending back the snakes first. That's what was stated in my previous post (quoted below) which, at least to me, seemed clear enough.
The BoidSmith said:Considering all the misrepresentation you incurred in above it stands to reason why Christy doesn’t feel comfortable with sending first the snakes first for a full. I wouldn’t either. On the other hand it is not common practice to ask for a refund first and send any merchandise later. It wouldn’t be fair to ask it from anyone. The $1,000 compensation Christy is asking from you seems reasonable. You are a phone call or a click of the mouse away from solving this issue, the ball is in your court (in more ways than one).
Now, if you think Christy has legal standing to make Joe buy the snakes back, she can give it a try. From my perspective though it would be far easier and less hassle to "settle this out of court", if they can agree on the $1,000 compensation. Although we might never know, IMHO it might be difficult for a judge to rule favorably based on just differences in "grams". But hey, I could be wrong...
Chameleon Company
New member
Dan, thanks for the reply ..
And we really aren't far apart. In this particular instance, we are probably in agreement. Since Joe has at least three "bad faith" actions in the deal (underweight animals, not coming thru with the agreed upon partial refund, and re-listing the animal while Christy owned it and had it in her possession), she has solid legal standing not only for a full refund, but to require that he ship first or the use of an escrow. If the full refund were agreed to by both parties, and either one required an escrow arrangement rather than take the first action (ship or pay), the other party would have virtually no legal basis to disagree, except possibly over escrow fees. If it went to court, and the lawyers saw that it was just a matter of a trustworthy escrow, they'd get it done in their offices. We also both agree that the partial refund is far more likely, and probably preferred by both parties.
Your statement:
addressed a hypothetical, but again, is not set in stone for all circumstances, this being an example of one. You put it in the thread as if it had merit here. IMO, it does not.
Lastly, there's this scenario which you speculate on, and while unlikely, warrants concern on Christy's part:
And we really aren't far apart. In this particular instance, we are probably in agreement. Since Joe has at least three "bad faith" actions in the deal (underweight animals, not coming thru with the agreed upon partial refund, and re-listing the animal while Christy owned it and had it in her possession), she has solid legal standing not only for a full refund, but to require that he ship first or the use of an escrow. If the full refund were agreed to by both parties, and either one required an escrow arrangement rather than take the first action (ship or pay), the other party would have virtually no legal basis to disagree, except possibly over escrow fees. If it went to court, and the lawyers saw that it was just a matter of a trustworthy escrow, they'd get it done in their offices. We also both agree that the partial refund is far more likely, and probably preferred by both parties.
Your statement:
addressed a hypothetical, but again, is not set in stone for all circumstances, this being an example of one. You put it in the thread as if it had merit here. IMO, it does not.
Lastly, there's this scenario which you speculate on, and while unlikely, warrants concern on Christy's part:
It might require an expert witness or two to explain it to the judge or jury, but inside of 5 minutes the relevance of gram weight would be made very significant, as mentioned by many (you included, I believe) earlier in the thread. Christy's position is solid, whether here or in a courtroom. The BOI is just so much cheaper if it works.
Chameleon Company
New member
Dan,
In looking at my last reply, I realize that I may not have clarified one point, and it is one that I took issue with a few posts back. While you did acknowledge that Christy has good reason to not trust sending the animals back first, and that you also would not do it, your point about "that is what you do" may have confused some readers as to Christy's obligations and legal standing. I am saying that she has legal standing to not do it, and did not want readers here to feel that Joe somehow still held the cards. Joe has compromised his integrity, and the courts would recognize a claim by Christy if she could prove it. She could.
In looking at my last reply, I realize that I may not have clarified one point, and it is one that I took issue with a few posts back. While you did acknowledge that Christy has good reason to not trust sending the animals back first, and that you also would not do it, your point about "that is what you do" may have confused some readers as to Christy's obligations and legal standing. I am saying that she has legal standing to not do it, and did not want readers here to feel that Joe somehow still held the cards. Joe has compromised his integrity, and the courts would recognize a claim by Christy if she could prove it. She could.
Junkyard
Generally Running Circles
I am still curious as to why you would not quarantine before breeding? If you do not have your projects lined up by now, then you might as well wait until next season. I have seen supposed healthy snakes turn for death after buying them 3 months later with no symptoms. Why would you risk losing so many at once?
Christy Talbert
New member
Hi Michael,
Obviously, I felt after examining the animal that he showed every sign of good health and the risk was negligible. In the end, we all trust our instincts with our animals - and 25 years of keeping/rehabing everything from skunks to hawks to deer has taught me I have pretty good instincts.
I would not suggest someone else do what I did, but I am ok with my actions concerning this particular animal.
Each of us can probably find something to critique about someone else's husbandry. In the end we all make a hundred little decisions based on our level of comfort. I remain comfortable with my evaluation of the health of the spider. My real error in judgment, in this instance, was trusting Joe.
In the words of Forest Gump..."That's all I have to say about that!"
Christy
Obviously, I felt after examining the animal that he showed every sign of good health and the risk was negligible. In the end, we all trust our instincts with our animals - and 25 years of keeping/rehabing everything from skunks to hawks to deer has taught me I have pretty good instincts.
I would not suggest someone else do what I did, but I am ok with my actions concerning this particular animal.
Each of us can probably find something to critique about someone else's husbandry. In the end we all make a hundred little decisions based on our level of comfort. I remain comfortable with my evaluation of the health of the spider. My real error in judgment, in this instance, was trusting Joe.
In the words of Forest Gump..."That's all I have to say about that!"
Christy
Junkyard
Generally Running Circles
Interesting, after 25 years one would figure you know better than just looking over a snake and being able to tell if it is sick or not. IBD can be present without any symptoms for a very long time, but I am sure you already knew that. Did you do any tests, fecal at least? To say it is healthy enough to breed as soon as it arrives off the truck it not very bright.
Of course one buyer looking to make quick money got an interesting surprise from a seller looking to make quick money. Interesting karma isn't it?
As far as getting anything back from Joe, I doubt it. Follow your instincts, you are good at that.
Of course one buyer looking to make quick money got an interesting surprise from a seller looking to make quick money. Interesting karma isn't it?
As far as getting anything back from Joe, I doubt it. Follow your instincts, you are good at that.
Cat_72
Back from exile :)
Perhaps because of the fear that this post could be updated later to read, "Joe sent me IBD infected snakes"? Yes, Joe was wrong, all the more reason to NOT trust that these snakes were healthy, even though appearing so outwardly.
Junkyard
Generally Running Circles
Cathy, you are right on. Joe was willing to misrepresent the spider ball to sell it, it is evident he could care less if the snake is sick and infected someone else's entire stock. He cannot be trusted, his silence is doing him more harm then good. He has not come on here stating that his animals are in top health and what you purchase from him is only the best. He only sells what you want to hear, not what you want to buy. I would hate for Christy to return with bad news.
I am curious as to how many here are really serious about IBD being spread around right now, I currently know of a few, but how many actually know how dangerous it is. Vets are afraid of this disease, just because a person pays $$thousands$$ for a snake, that has nothing to do with it not being infected. People will sell anything for money.
I am curious as to how many here are really serious about IBD being spread around right now, I currently know of a few, but how many actually know how dangerous it is. Vets are afraid of this disease, just because a person pays $$thousands$$ for a snake, that has nothing to do with it not being infected. People will sell anything for money.
The concern about the potential for IBD infection is a valid one as it is one of the deadliest diseases of boids nowadays. Having said this, speculating that Joe’s snakes could be infected is IMO a tad extreme. Besides, planting the seed of the doubt not only affects Joe, but Christy as well, which is completely unfair to her. She came here to warn us all about her experience with some misrepresented snakes, and her name ends up associated with the possibility of her animals contracting IBD?
Suggestions such as this should not be taken lightly, as they may be a deciding factor on whether a person would buy or not from her in the future. Granted, we may not agree with her quarantine procedures, but what was she supposed to do? Inclusion body disease is a chronic ailment. It is very likely that an infected animal will not show symptoms for months or maybe even years. How many of you perform a liver biopsy or any other invasive test on a recently acquired ball python? If this is a standard operating procedure when incorporating a new animal to any of your collections your zeal should be applauded. If you don’t, how many months/years do you have the animal in quarantine to make sure he doesn’t show signs of the disease? We all agree that Joe handled this situation very badly. But the IBD speculation casts a shadow of doubt that can harm Christy’s image. She came here asking for help and to warn us. Is this the way we want to repay her?
Regards.
Suggestions such as this should not be taken lightly, as they may be a deciding factor on whether a person would buy or not from her in the future. Granted, we may not agree with her quarantine procedures, but what was she supposed to do? Inclusion body disease is a chronic ailment. It is very likely that an infected animal will not show symptoms for months or maybe even years. How many of you perform a liver biopsy or any other invasive test on a recently acquired ball python? If this is a standard operating procedure when incorporating a new animal to any of your collections your zeal should be applauded. If you don’t, how many months/years do you have the animal in quarantine to make sure he doesn’t show signs of the disease? We all agree that Joe handled this situation very badly. But the IBD speculation casts a shadow of doubt that can harm Christy’s image. She came here asking for help and to warn us. Is this the way we want to repay her?
Regards.
Laura Fopiano
B&L Exotix
Okay back to my normal lovely self
I'm gonna try to remain calm while typing this, yes I've read the whole thread, and I do believe that Christy didn't get what she payed for, however, no quarantine................I don't care what anyone has rehabbed worked with ect. I would never, and I mean never introduce a newly acquired unknown history snake, to my breeders. End of discusion.
And because of that, why would I as a seller want to put those back into my collection. Sorry Christy, but shipping stress and cross contamination are a perfect combination for disaster.............sheesh some peoples kids!
TomO said:
I'm gonna try to remain calm while typing this, yes I've read the whole thread, and I do believe that Christy didn't get what she payed for, however, no quarantine................I don't care what anyone has rehabbed worked with ect. I would never, and I mean never introduce a newly acquired unknown history snake, to my breeders. End of discusion.
And because of that, why would I as a seller want to put those back into my collection. Sorry Christy, but shipping stress and cross contamination are a perfect combination for disaster.............sheesh some peoples kids!