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Florida state law issues

Jerry,

I agree it is a waste of resources on such a petty infraction. I know in my area they go around to pet stores and try to pull the same thing but not too often. It is bound to happen at the small shows from time to time. At this past Orlando show (new show) there was a guy there trying to sell some animals and very well might have been UC F&W trying to pull the same sting. It is just safer to be careful and not purchase anything from anyone without checking. There is one store here locally (won't mention the name) that won't purchase the animal if you bring it in without a license but will purchase the container it is in and receive the animal (S) for free. I don't know it this is legal or not but to me it is not worth the risk of loosing my license and business over a small purchase.
 
It is possible that these sting actions are not motivated by as much meanness on the part of the authorities, although it is a mean thing to do, but by fiscal desperation.
The U.S. economy has been in a deep recession for a few years and this has almost all states deep in the red and unable to afford the services that the citizens want the government to provide.
I think part of the reason for the stings come from pressure put on the line forces by the higher-ups to "scare up" more revenue, either by fines or "encouraging" more people to buy permits.
I want to also offer some encouragement to those who were stung. As a history buff, it is my reading that sting operations against average herpers do not hold up in court if the stung herpers are willing to challenge the charges, especially by hiring an attorney and fighting it.
The agents are often counting on you just paying the ticket or fine or accepting the confiscation of your animals, and are often shocked when a herper mounts a defense in court, or especially sues the agents for rights violations.
 
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=29923&goto=newpost
Click to expand...

I would say that is would be illegal to purchase anything in that matter Unless you had it in writing that the contents of the cage was free, You might could get away with that but In my opinion it would be a coin toss at best. I am glad I don't do very many shows in florida if that is the way things are down there. Becasue I would have purchased the Scarlet kings no questions asked. People sell things all the time at most of the other shows. That seems to me as a Clear Case of Entraptment. How can they come to your table and try to sell you a snake without having a class III permit if you have to have a class III permit to sell? They(wildlife officer) should then be fined for attempting to sell without a class III permit. Or am I just misunderstanding what is going on here. If they had busted me for that crime I would have to fight that one. I would think that the STATE and FEDERAL people would have better things to do that bust someone for purchasing a snake in the state of FLORIDA....But that is just my Opinion. See ya
 
When I managed a store.. the owner and I were 99.9% sure we had an undercover employee. A guy came out of nowhere one day.. name dropping every main reptile breeder in the state... only calling herps in their proper names (but not knowing a thing about husbandry or even which lizards were herbivores or carnivores...) He kept constantly trying to get information on where our herps came from, who we bought from in the past.. even asking to help with the books. We knew there was something funny about the guy... started calling the names he kept referring to... found out they either had no idea who he was... or had just met him the day before. The next day, he never showed up again... never seen again in our area.

I am pretty confident..now after the All Ohio show incident.. that the undercover guy was part of that sting. We never got busted for anything.. so... not sure how much they kept looking into my store.

Talk about a waste of time and money!
 
Yes David,

You wrote the word I was trying so hard to get.
ENTRAPMENT would be the foremost defense in my opinion as a history buff. Thank You!
 
In regards to the story about the scarlet kings would it have been a violation to purchase the snakes if the person was there as a customer and not a seller ? I know in the past at some of the Florida shows I have been approched in the parking lot, hotel, etc. by people attempting to sell various animals which were usually much cheaper then the animals inside.
 
Does anyone have a website address or information in regards to the permit requirements for selling reptiles at the Florida shows?
 
Permit: LICENSE TO SELL OR EXHIBIT WILDLIFE
(ELEVEN OR MORE ANIMALS)

Cost $25.00 (as of 5/5/03)

FLORIDA FISH AND WILDLIFE CONSERVATION COMMISSION
2590 Executive Center Circle, Suite 200 Tallahassee,FL 32301
(850) 488-6253
Class 3
Amphibians and all class III Reptiles Except Venemous Reptiles



Please call them as I have actually found them to be quite helpful.
 
So let me get this right. If someone comes in the show with 10 animals and sells or trys to sell to a vendor the 10 animals, Would he need a permit? And why would the buyer get introuble if he HAS a CLASS III permit? It would seem to me that the only one that would get busted should BE the PERSON Trying to SELL the animals in this case THE OFFICER since he stated he didn't have a permit. And if it was less than the 11 animals required to have a permit. Might be no violation at all. I don't know since I was not at the show or did I see it for myself. Does anyone know what the fines were? Or were there any fines at all? I would definatly fight it....Thanks DAVID
 
Well, I've never been all that keen about the public bringing their own animals into a show I paid good money for tables in order to sell my animals anyway. I think this would be excellent cause for show promoters to just prohibit walkins from bringing in animals for any reason.

If someone comes up to your table to try to sell you an animal, just contact the show staff to have the agent, er 'person', escorted out the door.

So let me run this by you all. If a person buys an animal from you at a show, then an hour later comes back, for whatever reason, wanting to return the animal to you, would you be in legal jeopardy doing so if the customer does not have a permit? In effect, you are buying back that animal from the customer.

Also:
And why would the buyer get introuble if he HAS a CLASS III permit? It would seem to me that the only one that would get busted should BE the PERSON Trying to SELL the animals in this case THE OFFICER since he stated he didn't have a permit.
Click to expand...

This is a good point. I don't believe I have ever seen any statute that said it was permissible for any authority agency to break the law in order to enforce the law.
 
well DAVID, that is exactly what

happened. Petty entrapment, and these louses look at this as bust ! I dont know if the sale by an agent would be the same if it were to another individual as opposed to a licenced vendor. I am not that familiar with these laws even though I am a resident and was a vendor at that show. Rob may be in a better position to answer that question. JERRY
 
I may be wrong, but is it possible that the agents

offered the Scarlets without actually having them, and may have indicated that they had the animals outside in the car. To the best of my knowledge, Lauren does not allow animals into the show, unless you are show vendor. But Richs point is well taken. This show was on the 13th. Lauren is having another show on the 28th at a different location. What if a customer purchased a herp and wanted to return it to the same vendor on the 28th. What if it was a prearranged agreement. Would the vendor be in violation?

There are to many possibilities in this scenero, and as indicated, a good attorney would make mince meat out of these super agents. Jerry
 
There may be a deeper look needed at this issue.

Are show promoters who allow the public to bring animals into the show, possibly to offer for sale, possibly placing themselves in legal jeopardy by knowingly allowing an illegal practice to take place? If overzealous agents will bust vendors, I would think busting a show promoter would look as a rather big feather in their cap.
 
Oh yea, They would be thinking they just busted the king pin. But you know The laws don't apply to the law enforcers if you really think about it. They can call you and set you up for a drug deal. they can speed to catch a speeder. And they can put potential prostitues on the streets to Entrap a buyer of sex or vice versa. So maybe this can be something they are allowed to do. As with the reptiles they can ask you to get them illegal animals even if you don't offer them first...some of this is going on as we speak. I like people to bring in snakes to shows to sell. I like getting deals on snakes they are not wanting to care for anymore. Does anyone have actual proof showing that a agent tried to sell snakes without a permit or tried to sell snakes he didn't even have. NO SNAKES NO CRIME. That would be like me going to a Police station and telling a Officer I had DRUGS when I didn't, I really don't think they could bust you if they don't see drugs/snakes. Unless they try and rap you with Intent to buy/sell with out a class III permit. But that seem kinda foolish for them to go after someone that has to have a class III permit to sell, unless the people busted didn't have a PERMIT either. then they might have a case. Just my opinion. Thanks DAVID
 
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