Flukers Crickets... Anyone had similar experiences.

[ragnew]

Hey,

About five months ago I ordered a supply of flukers crickets. About a week after they arrived, a bunch of my animals started showing signs of parastizim. I had several fecals done, and even a necropsy on one of my dead animals came back negative. The reason I'm post this is because I recently (about thirty minutes ago) had to euthanize all but four of my infected animals. I've heard that people were involved in a contest that ended with Flukers giving away several baby bearded dragons to lucky winners. I've heard that several of the dragons were exhibiting signs similar to those that my leopard geckos were showing (runny foul smelling feces, regurgitation, lethargy and eventually death). I'd like a bit more help if anyone else knows anything about this. Please reply. I must clarify, this isn't a bashing thread, but however it is one that should be taken seriously. Since this has happened I've learned alot of negative things about my previous supplier (flukers) and hope no-one else has to learn the same way I did. If anyone else has had a similar experience please let me know.

Thanks,
Richie

 

[Lynn]

I may be wrong but the alot of the dragons had YELLOW FUNGUS. Check with CheriS. She has done alot of studies on this. I am sorry for your loss. I use ArmstrongCrickets. They are higher in price but I have used them for 8 years and NEVER had a problem with my dragons. (Knock on wood)

 

[ScottsReptiles]

When I used to run a shop.. I bought only from Flukers... ordered about 50 to 70 thousand a week.. never had any troubles with them. Flukers always treated me well.

 

[ragnew]

Thanks for the replies...

I do appreicate the replies... Lyn you said something about a Yellow Fungus, I was wondering if you could elaborate a bit on that for me... Thanks for the info too Scottsreptiles. I dont mean to say that Flukers is the sole cause of the problem, but I do however believe that they are one of the underlying compontents. Namely due to the fact that I've heard from so many unhappy ex-customers... Reptile / Exotics sellers here in Colorado fit into the ex-customers category as well. I think I'll try armstrongs crix, as Lyn brought up. I've just heard, and experienced too much to keep ordering from Flukers. Again, thanks to both of you I do appreciate it....

Richie

 

[Mark and Aimee]

Maybe this is all coincidence... And it has nothing to do with anything. But here goes.

I noticed you are in Denver, and your name is Richie.

I bought 2 beardies at the spring herp show in Denver, from a guy named Rich.

One of the beardies never was quite "right". It died of unknown causes a few months later. I wrote it off as a birth defect - neurological problem.

I know... It has nothing to do with geckos, and probably nothing to do with parasites. Just weird.

FWIW, I order my crickets from reptilefood.com, who drop ships from Timberline Fisheries. Great stuff, never have any problems. Prices are good too.

 

[ragnew]

Hi Mark and Aimee

Hi,

Hmmm, is pretty strange. But nope, that wasn't me. I was going to go to the show but since so many of the animals I was going to be selling came down ill I had to pull out.... I dont know how people can sell animals that are sick or not doing so well, would make me feel like a cheapscape.... Sorry for the loss of your beardie. Hope the other one continues to thrive...

Laters,
Richie

 

[CheriS]

Many of the dragons that Fluker's gave away had heavy parasitic load when checked by vets immediately after arriving, most died and did not have a necropsy, some that did had what has commonly come to be called Yellow Fungus Disease, some also had and were diagnosed with adenovirus and coronavirus from necropsy or test.

Both diseases are actively being studied and researched by professionals since the increase in them has been so significant in the last few years.

We have never checked their crickets, but one of the researchers studying some of the viral infections feels that crickets may be a transfer vector for the virus. There is nothing definite on this at this time.

Did you happen to use any of their cricket feed products, like the water gel or cricket gel feed with these crickets you think might be a problem? A few years ago we had a mass die off of crickets (thousands) following using their water gel with calcium, I still have it here and its gone from a bright yellow to a clear gel...... very strange, I keep meaning to have it tested. After the dragon fiasco last year and the iguana problems a few years before that, we do not use any of their products or sites associated with them like the Repti-something sites.

IMO a company that has twice introduced infected or diseased animals to the US and owners existing colonies, with no comment on it or apology OR restitution to the owners, will not profit from me.

It was interesting hearing him discuss reptile websites and how worthless they were at the Tampa show after their dragon venture fell apart and that Site died, only to see he has opened up MANY site online the past year, the domains are not registered to him, but if you look them up and read the registrations you can figure it out pretty quick.

No, Howard did not know it was me talking with the owners of Armstrong Crickets when he came up and joined our conversation and stated that.... but then it was funny some staff of his was at the show the next day handing out brochures for one of his Repti Sites and plugging it.... when they did not even have a table at the show!!!

BTW: Armstrong Crickets were the sponsor of the show that FLukers was passing out their plug for one of their websites at the next day.....I guess more examples of good business practices and ethics to impress us....

Oh, and they are back selling bearded dragons to the Pet store chains again. Be careful!

 

[ragnew]

Hi Cheri,

Thank you so much for all the info you just supplied. I was glad that you posted, since Lyn knew you had quite a bit of info on the Dragon issue.... I had a batch of Flukers Crickets completely and totally wipe out a whole baby colony and infect four of my breeding adult leopard geckos... I'm positive that this is the reason why my animals died, and I do believe that your post has clarified my thoughts completely. Flukers hasn't gotten a penny from me since. I actually got ahold of the President of the company and shared my feelings with him and he treated me as if I were an idiot to say the least. All of my baby leopard geckos (all my geckos for that matter) were from my own breeding projects. I took and still take pride in the animals I produce and would never introduce an animal that could possibly bring in a parasite that could devastate my collection. The only way for this infection or parasite to enter my colony would have been from my crickets. And thats what happened..... The president of fluker farms gave me the name and email address to the DVM that did the study on their crickets as well as three other suppliers.... After insisting that their crickets were not the source of my problem they recommended I talk to the vet that did the research. I did, and I also found out that the only parasite that was searched for in this effort were the lowly pinworms.... And for that parasite, they came back negative. All I can say is this.... Flukers was responsible for the mass infection in my Leopard Gecko Colony, and their crickets are infected with something much, much worse then the pinworms... I have my suspicions as to what it could be, but I'll leave it at this. Flukers will never, ever get another penny from me or anyone that I know... I love my animals way too much to risk another infection of any sort, and I'll never deal with a business that treats me more like a moron then a customer.

Thanks for the post Cheri, I appreciate it,
Richie

 

[meretseger]

Does Fluker's supply beardies to pet stores or have they in the past? Just a question out of curiousity.

Erin Benner

 

[Lynn]

Yes they did supply reptiles to pet stores. I am not sure if they still do.

Thanks Cheri for posting. I have been following your posts on different places. Thank you for all your hard work in the reptile industry. You have made it a better place for everyone. PLEASE keep up the great work. I wish everyones heart was in it like yours....Thanks again. You are awesome girlfriend.

 

[CheriS]

Thank you Lynn and Richie, reptile medical and morphology has been a souce of interest to me for several years. I just finished an article about natural hybridization in bearded dragons in their native habitat, I thought it was so interesting and the infomation comes from the gentleman that was able to name several species in Australia including P. henrylawsoni, also about to name a ninth species to the pogona family.

Richie, I thought you might like to see this, it is a quote from Dr Dan Wentz, the man that has developed the only non invasive test to detect adenovirus in reptiles. He is speaking about bearded dragons, but it can apply to many reptiles

Until we fully understand the pathogenesis of the adenovirus, we should take all the precautions possible to prevent its introduction into our collections or spread to others. For this reason, I recommend following these precautionary steps. Fecal EM test ALL breeder animals. This will allow for clean breedings and production of virally free offspring. Quarantine ALL new introductions until fecal EM tests are run. This will prevent introduction of the virus into your collection. Feed only commercially processed foods. Until it is determined that crickets are not a vector, play it safe.Feeding commercial food also prevents bearded dragons from contracting pinworms & coccidia.

For his full Article click the link below
Adenovirus

 

[CheriS]

Richie,

What a strange coinsidence, I just emailed you a link to a post on another area about infected crickets that were confirmed by the buyer from a supplier.......... strange

Also, whoever asked, yes Flukers is again selling bearded dragons to pet stores in the United States:

Copy of a conversation last month on a phone call to Flukers Farms:

Connected to Operator
Operator: Hello. My name is ******* and I am your live operator today. How can I help you?
Shopper: hello
Operator: what can I do for you?
Shopper: I had 3 bearded dragons and I recently got one from PetsMart it is said that your bearded dragons were reported infected with sickness such as yellow fungus disease and were being shipped to PetsMarts, I believe mine has it and has spread the disease to one of my dragons the same size they share a cage . Is this true? if so do you still send dragons to southern california? I must know so when I seek a vet, because that disease is new and uncommon and is fatal so I have to give him all the info I can.
Operator: hold please I will reply in a few minutes.
Operator: No this is not true----our bearded dragons come from ((((((El salvador)))))) not Southern California
Shopper: no im sorry I should rephrase the question, do you still ship bearded dragons to PetsMarts to sell in california
Operator: we sure do.


So yes, they are selling them to Pet Store Chains again, no doubt about it.

 

[Intense Herpetoculture]

Yeah, the PetSmart here just got in a batch of bearded from Flukers!!! They didn't look to hot either!

 

[ragnew]

Hi Cheri,

Thank you so much for all the help you've been. I'm very, very glad that you started to post on my subject (as well as the others that did). I'm going to take everything and anything that you've told me and use it to see if I can figure out what was going on with my baby Leopards.... I truly believe that my baby leos have fallen victim to the very topics that have been discussed here on the forum... I just wish that it didn't have to happen... If I could turn back time and cancel my order with Flukers I'd do it in a heartbeat.... Since I've last talked to you I've gotten rid of all my flukers feed and water (gel) based products... So yes, the Flukers feed and water were both in my regime as far as my leopard geckos were concerned.... I was using both products as gut loading agents before feeding them to my leopards.... Again, thanks sooo much and I will keep you posted. That goes for everyone of you that've helped me out... I thank you all from the bottom of my heart... Your all the best.

Thanks,
Richie Agnew

 

[Sasheena]

Interesting...

I'm wondering if the CRICKETS supplied TO the petstores (PetsMart) are supplied by Flukers also? Only reason I ask this is that I had some emerald swifts, some anoles, and some insectivorous snakes, and all of them died about the same time. I purchased my crickets from PetsMart. 6 out of 7 of my ground snakes, my pair of emerald swifts, and my pair of anoles all passed away suddenly. Hubby and I were in the middle of moving about 30 miles and I had attributed it to stress, but now I have to wonder if there was something about those crickets that "offed" my entire insectivorous collection.

 

[Intense Herpetoculture]

I do know in Central Texas the crickets are supplied by Armstong crickets and if that source fails they get them from Timberline (my main source).
Thanks
Justyn

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I've been down this road before...

I just wanted to add my 2 cents on this thread. Some of you "old-timers" in this forum may remember this, but about 2 1/2 years ago I lost 17 out of 28 of my Leopard Geckos over a period of about 6-8 months to what the necropsy reports showed as Hepatic Lipidosis. Several Vets (including Dr. Roger Klingenberg) suspected it was some sort of adenovirus, but this is more common in Bearides and very rare in Leopard Geckos. After 11 deaths and 4 necropsies with the same cause of death, I HAD to find out what was going on to cause the liver failure.

I got Dr. Frederic L. Frye to conduct a 5th necropsy, and the results were the same as far as the hepatic lipidosis, but his conclusion was that my geckos were sick and dying because of mycotoxic poisoning from chronic ingestion of crickets that were fed on moldy food. I contacted the cricket supplier, but got no response. When I posted this information on the BOI, the cricket company threatened to sue me, and the whole thing snowballed into a huge war. I know Webslave remembers this very well.

Apparently, when non-human grade corn-based feed is allowed to get wet it gets moldy. This mold produces Alflatoxins, more specifically Aspergilus flavus or B1, which is poisonous to animals. Since most cricket growers are in the southern states where it is hot and humid, and feed thier crickets corn-based chicken mash, it is an environment that fosters the growth of mold. Dr. Frye said that crickets can store large amounts of this toxin in their systems with no ill effects, but when the animals ingest these toxic crickets over a period of time, their livers can no longer function from trying to filter it out. This, combined with the mobilization of fat from being anorexic, will ultimately kill your animals. This toxin does not show up using conventional microscopic methods.

Once I discontinued using the crickets from that source, and dropper feeding 2X a day for 2 months, I was able to reverse the effects of the disease on the remaining sick geckos and they made a complete recovery. It took me much longer to recover from the stress, anger, and grief.

A few months ago, I started having similar problems with about a dozen of my geckos, and had a stool sample taken in to a pathology lab (IDEX) to grow a culture which confirmed that I was dealing with a bacterial infection. Since the infected geckos were completely random, I suspected the crickets to be the cause. I am extremely fastidious with feeding and storing my feeders and my husbandry is borderline obsessive-compulsive, so I knew it was nothing I was doing.

I took about a half-dozen crickets straight out of the shipping box from the supplier, and had them tested at the same pathology lab. Guess what? They were LOADED with bacteria, all of which were of the nature and quantities to make my geckos very sick. Fortunately, all but one strain was sensitive to Baytril.

The bacteria strains were:
- Citrobacter Freundii
- Provendencia Rettgeri
- Proteus Vulgaris
- Klebsiella Pneumoniae
- Aeromonas species

All geckos recovered very nicely with Baytril treament, but when I talked to the cricket supplier about this issue they were more concerned about losing my business and ruining their reputation rather than working to correct the problem.

Another source of disease in crickets is feeding them meat-based foods such as dog food. Again, the crickets can store up the meat meal in their systems long enough for it to become rancid, and when the animals eat it it makes them sick. The GI systems of non-carnivorous reptiles are not equipped to digest un-pasteurized meat products.

In my cases, NONE of these toxins or bacteria can be identified by standard fecal float/smear tests. The bacteria need to be cultured in a petrii dish in a lab environment, stained and identified. This is expensive and time consuming, and definately not very practical for any of us.

We have got to get the message out to cricket growers, and have documented facts to back us up. Both cricket breeders I had problems with were very defensive, and accused me of tampering with the crickets or not taking them straight out of the box. We have got to raise the awareness level within the herp community so we can really lean on our feeder suppliers to maintain healthier and more sanitary environments in their facilities.

 

[drawoh]

I recently came across your post on www.FaunaClassifieds.com. I took time to personally respond to your concerns but yet I read "I actually got ahold of the President of the company and shared my feelings with him and he treated me as if I were an idiot to say the least." How in good conscious can you say this. Please review my previous email attached below; and explain to me how this is derogatory to you or your problem in anyway?

David Fluker

----- Original Message -----
From: DAF
To: [email protected] ; [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 2:17 PM
Subject: Fw: Parasites and Flukers Crickets...


Mr. Richie Agnew,


We have been in business since 1953 and strive to provide our customers with a quality product. We ship over 20,000,000 crickets a month. Our client list includes many notable zoos (Dallas Zoo, Baton Rouge Zoo, Cincinnati Zoo....), universities (Harvard, Yale, LSU, Tulane.....), pet shops and breeders throughout the U.S. If our crickets had a problem I assure they would let us know. Especially zoo's which sometimes have their own veterinarian on staff. With this in mind I am not currently aware of a problem. We also breed reptiles in El Salvador and use our crickets down there. I am not aware of any problems at our own breeding facility down there either.

Because of the rampant misinformation on the Internet concerning feeder insects Dr. Mark Mitchell of Louisiana State University recently (Jan. 2003) did a study looking for parasites in crickets. Our crickets along with four other farms were evaluated. None of the farms tested positive for parasites. The study is to be published in the Journal of Herpetological Medicine and Surgery. Dr. Mitchell will be glad to provide you with a rough draft of the study if you so desire. You may also contact him directly via phone (225.xxx.9600) or email
[email protected] .

I hope this information will address your concerns and will persuade you that our crickets are not the source of your problem. I certainly would like to count you among our many happy customers.


David Fluker
President Fluker Farms



----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 11:47 AM
Subject: Fw: Parasites and Flukers Crickets...



----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To:[email protected]
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 1:11 AM
Subject: Parasites and Flukers Crickets...


Hi,

About 2 1/2 months ago I recieved my order of feeder insects from Flukers. About a week after I started feeding my animals these feeders more then HALF of my pets started showing signs of Parasitizm (Diarreah, lethargy, anorexia, and with 4 of them, DEATH). I've never, ever introduced any of my animals to an outside reptile (meaning all my animals are from my breeding stock) so they weren't exposed to anything from another breeder. The only thing that they shared were your crickets. Has anyone else notified you of any problems like this? If so, what was done about it? Honestly I've heard nothing but bad things about Flukers since I had this problem. Also, I've talked to several different reptile vets and breeders and they all seem to think that your feeders were the origin of the problem that I'm currently facing... An order of $136.00 was placed with your Company, and if I'd have known what was in the forecast for my poor reptiles I'd have cancelled it in a heart beat. Please respond to this email at once.....

A very, very unhappy Customer,
Richie Agnew

 

[ragnew]

Dear Mr. Fluker,

Thanks for the reply, I do appreciate it... I do apologize for what I said about the "being treated like an idiot part", but you must understand that I was very, very upset about the fact that I'd recently had to put down 12 of my Pets... Of the 16 that were sick only 4 of them survived... As far as the parasites were concerned, I took the liberty to contact the DVM that you listed as the cricket test and I requested a copy of the Report that he had written on the results of the tests he performed... All that I saw checked for were Pinworms, nothing else, and yes the pinworms weren't found inside of your crickets... I'd still like to know what else was checked for inside of these tests... I've heard varying reports of Flukers Supplying sickly Bearded Dragons to the public as well as Flukers Crickets carrying several different kinds of bacteria... These strands of Bacteria aren't harmful to the crickets but very, very devastating to the animals that feed upon these crickets.... I'm not the kind to point fingers but I can guarantee that the problem with my animals steemed from the supply of crickets that I'd received... What else could it have been? My animals are all top quality Lizards that are housed individually, captive bred (from my own colonies) and share nothing but the crickets... The crickets are the only link that could've caused so much unnecessary devastation... I'm currently in the process of getting 3 necropsies done on three different animals and I'm confident that the results will point toward the bacteria that is found in the crickets... Bacteria found in many suppliers, not just Flukers. Again, I do apologize for what I'd said, that was undoubtedly immature and I am sorry. I do appreicate the time that you've given me..... If it is a bacteria that is causing any of the problems I'd think that you as a supplier would like to hear about it as well... Please let me know if you've ever had a problem with anykind of a bacterial infection as well... Whether it be in the crickets or the food... Much appreicated...

Sincerely,
Richie Agnew

 

[drawoh]

Thank you for your response. As I have stated before I am not aware of any bacterial issues concerning our crickets. Certainly I would like to be informed of your findings. However I am not a specialist in microbiology. I would encourage you to report and discuss your findings with Dr. Mark Mitchell. He is certainly more qualified than I am to discuss this matter with you.

Sincerely,

David Fluker