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General Precautions for buying from someone

S

shaungenghis

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Looking at all the BOI posts, I thought it would be good if everyone posted tips on what to avoid when buying animals or anything from someone. Here's my contribution (and its actually happened to me- the sand boa never died but it just stopped growing, weirdest thing to happen to me):

1. Do not buy from someone saying that he/she is selling for a friend or someone else. It may be nothing, or it may be an excuse to maintain a reputation that isnt really deserved.
 
2.  Do not buy from someone who will not provide you with a name, physical address, and phone number.
 
I'd say starting out I would stick with the larger breeders if possible. It didn't take too long to come up with names like South Mountain, Cathy Love, John Cherry, or Serpenco to name a few.

No address, no phone number or check made out to a third party, NO MONEY. I guess there are valid reasons why a person would use a P.O.  BOX but why take a chance.

When dealing with an unknown ask for photos. No picture, NO MONEY. I know there are good people just starting out who don't own a camera. If they are serious about getting into breeding a decent digi cam is a must. They may be working on a tight budget, but very few people can start a business with ready cash. A camera is just one of the costs of doing business. Keep in mind that depending on the camera and or lighting there may be variations in colors, but patterns and identifying marks should still be there and you will be able to identify the animal you sent your hard earned cash for.

For future purchases check out the forums. There are many hobbyists and small breeders who are very helpful giving advice year round. Tim Madsen is a name that stands out. Always helpful with the newbies, never comes across with attitude and has been doing this for a while. Other names I would deal with without coming to the board would be guys like Terry Dunham, John Meltzer, John Ginter, Clint Boyer, Bart Bruno,  Brandon Osborne to name a few. I have never seen ads for their animals and if they have web sites I haven't been there either (with the exception of Terry), but I feel confident enough to do business with any of them. The list of names is reasonably long and I know I have left out many names both large and small that have great animals and great service. No slight intended. There are plenty of good guys out there. There's no reason to get burned by scammers unless you are in a big hurry or you are trying to save money. There are many reputable people who have animals at very reasonable prices. No reason to gamble with your money.

I think most scammers are banking on the fact that the average person is not going to follow through on a twenty five or fifty dollar purchase. If they are selling bad animals they don't care about their reps. If they are not sending animals they definitely don't care about their reps. And if their name gets around and the suckers get wise they just come up with another scam. Just my opinion.

Steve Barry
 
Check the BOI before buying. Sounds silly to have to mention it but there is one of the best pieces of advice you can follow.

Also ask for references. Then contact the references via snail mail or email and ask them to snail mail you a reference for the seller. The best way to do this is to send the reference person a self addressed and stamped envelope (why should they be spending money for stamps for you). This way you can be assured that the references are not the seller using multiple screen names to email you great references he made up for himself. It is amazing how many people will not check references, but you can probably be pretty sure that a seller is not mailing you letters of reference from 5 or 6 different states. If they all come from Paduka, Illinois and the seller is located in Babishka, Illinois (the next town over) you can bet it is a scam.

Make sure you know exactly what you are getting before you pay. Get an exact description of the animal, the shipping method, and any guarantee. Also get a picture of the animal if possible. While a picture is nice it is not mandatory. Not everyone has a camera, for example I don't, but I still sell quality snakes and other items over the net. Sometimes I can borrow a camera and sometimes not. I sure don't want to buy one just to sell a few surplus snakes each year so I give an excellent description of what I am selling. I guarantee satisfaction within two days of delivery but you would have to follow my rules to get the purchase price refunded (not hard to follow, but you would have to follow them exactly as I don't want to get screwed either). I also guarantee live delivery. Beyond that I do not guarantee anything else. Be careful of what you are getting, read all of the print.

To be safest of all use a herp site for which sellers have to pay a listing fee (sorry faunaclassifieds). Sites like faunaclassifieds are great but scammers are probably more likely to use one like this because they do not have to lay out any cash before using the site. They then also do not have to supply a credit card number or other identifying data about themselves to the service. Using a site like kingsnake.com is probably safer because sellers had to pay for the use of the service, thereby making it more likely that the seller is legitimate because most low level scammers (in my opinion) are looking to make money without spending money. I am not saying not to use faunaclassifieds.com, I use it often. But if you do, then make use of the BOI and check out the seller. I would like to see these sites (both faunaclassifieds and kingsnake) use a feedback feature like other sites such as AuctionArms.com or Ebay.com. This is a good feature and in addition to the BOI would be almost an assurance that you knew the reputation of with whom you are dealing.

Pay by CREDIT CARD as this offers the maximum protection against fraud. If they do not accept plastic, then use: PayPal or another online money transfer service or use a U.S. Postal Money order. If someone defrauds you when you used a postal money order, it is now a federal offense.

Use an escrow service such as that offered by PayPal. You pay through PayPal but the money goes into an escrow account where it is held until you say you were satisfied with the merchandise.

Did I say check the BOI, sure I did! <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>
 
Glenn,

I agree with you 100% that a check of the BOI is essential when dealing with someone you are not familiar with.  However, I don't neccessarily agree with your assement of Kingsnake.com vs FC.  I know exactly what you are saying and your comments make sense in theory, but, the only two deals I was unhappy with came from sellers on kingsnake.com  One was before I knew of the BOI and the other came after an uneventful search on the BOI.  Neither of the two people had advertisements on FC.  The first was with some kid when I was just getting started, the second was more of a disagreement over value and I did not think it warrented a bad guy post.  I will still voice my opinions if his name ever comes up but it hasen't in over a year.

I might add I got no satisfaction from Kingsnake when I informed them of the scam.  I wonder how a 15 year old kid got an account on kingsnake, but it was several years ago maybe things have changed.  My biggest beef with kingsnake is they don't have a place where you can go to check out the people who advertise there.  Maybe the fact that he is a pay site changes some of the laws regarding what you can and can't post about people i don't know.

I'll add a flip side to your argument that people will be less likely to scam if they have to pay for the add.  If, as you say, scammers are hoping that people will not make a big deal out of a 25 or 50 dollar deal, Why not invest 50 bucks to give people the false impression that because you had to pay for the add you will be honest.  

Anyway, your other comments were right on and even the one I addressed was not out of line, I just happen to disagree.

One more word of advice. if you are on the end of a bad deal.  Don't wait too long to check things out.  If you are not getting response for two weeks, act on it.  If you are getting excuses for a month act on it.  If a month has gone by, make daily efforts to contact. the party.  If they promise a reply by a certain time contact them immediatly if they don't follow through.  The longer a bad deal festers the less likely you are to have things turn out in your favor.  Excuses and a trusting victim are a scammers best weapons.

Steve Schindler
 
Steve S.... I was the one who said I thought a scammer was counting on the fact that the average person would not pursue a twenty five or fifty dollar loss. I never said anything about how elaborate a con they would run. I know personally I would not try and chase someone down for a small amount of money  if they lived a few states away. I was the victim of an attempted car theft about twenty five years ago. Some friends of mine had caught the thief. I offered the arresting officer twenty bucks if he would leave the perp to me. No dice. I went through the system. Spent a full day in court. He wouldn't cop a plea so my buddy had to spend a day in court also. The kid never showed up and it was nothing but a waste of time. Luckily I was working nights so I didn't lose any pay.

My cousin told me of a scam that involved a bank. They called him because they were missing thousands of dollars and couldn't track it down. Eventually they found a teller who had set up an account.At the end of the month when the interest is posted it might amount to 5.25 and a half cent. The half cent is not posted. The teller was taking all the half pennies and depositing them in a separate account. Nobody would ever complain about the missing half a penny but collectively it amounted to quite a bit of money.

While I certainly don't like throwing away fifty dollar bills it is not worth missing a days work to try and prosecute or get my money back. I know it's a selfish attitude but it's not likely it'll get them off the street. It's not likely I'll get my money back either. These people generally have nothing to lose and that's what makes them a serious problem. It always does my heart good when I see a little street justice administered to these small timers. Even then one has to be careful not to get caught or you'll end up on the wrong side of a lawsuit. If you have anything you may lose some of it. Doesn't seem fair.

Steve Barry
 
Steve B

I understand,  I don't think I would go through the effort either.  thats why many of these small timers never get caught.  Or if they do they get a slap on the wrist and get set free and keep on scamming people..  Its only when they get greedy and try to make that one big score that they get caught and hopefully get an appropriate punishment.  $50.00 probably not $500.00 probably, $5,000.00 definitely

I wonder where the bank criminal got that idea from.  Maybe there is some truth to the idea that movies do cause crime.  Or maybe the crimes are just translated into movies.

Steve Schindler
 
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