Georgia Dragons Be wary of them They are trying to get money they ar enot entitled to

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

This company purchased a 20 lot of baby bearded dragons In May. They received the shipment on May 22 2003. They stated when they arrived that they were drinking, and some were nibbling on the greens. I then did not hear a word from them until June 24 2003 when they stated that they were having problems with some of the babies and a few had perished. They were well aware of our terms and guarantee when they ordered the animals and now would like us to extend and give them a 30 day guarantee. Well even if I had given them a 30 day guarantee they did not contact me until 32 days after the animals arrived. They are now wanting me to refund them for 4 babies that supposedly perished sometime in the 32 days after they received them. I informed them again what our terms were and that there was nothing I could nor was willing to do in this case since there had been so much time passed and I was not contacted until this late. They then proceeded to inform me that they are going to contest the charge on their credit card company for the entire purchase if I do not refund the money for the supposed 4 dragons. I have informed them that if they do contest the charges they will be commiting fraud and I will pursue for that. Below are the e-mail exchanges since they received the animals. They are colored for ease of reading. I just thought everyone should know what they are trying to pull on me so everyone else can be protected.

them
me

Thursday, May 22, 2003 11:46 AM Just wanted to let know they arrived this morning and are doing fine. They are drinking water all ready and a few are beginning to nibble on their greens.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Michael & Wendy Eves

Thursday, May 22, 2003 11:40 AM Wendy,.

Thanks for letting me know they have arrived. I always worry no matter what it is or where it is going. Thanks again and if you need anything else in the future let me know.


Dear Rob:

Tuesday, June 24, 2003 11:04 AM I wanted to drop you a line and let you know that I am having some trouble with the 20 lot of baby beardeds I purchased from you.

4 of the babies have died and the rest are not growing as they should be. They are being fed the best greens and veggies and crickets but they are not thriving very well at all. They have just barely grown at all and are way behind in their growth compared to others I have of the same age.

Could you please credit me for the 4 babies that were not viable and have expired. I believe there was likely something wrong with them developmentally.

I had purchased the 20 lot from you for $525.00. Please credit my paypal account [email protected] for the cost of the 4 that were not healthy and did not make it. That should be $26.25 each for a total of $105.00

Thanks for you assistance pertaining to these babies. I will let you know when I need to purchase some others but I would like to get them from a different cross than what these came from. (Sandfire Red x Orange Tiger)


Sincerely,

Michael & Wendy Eves

Hello,.

Tuesday, June 24, 2003 1:48 PM I am sorry to hear that you had any problems with the babies as you are the first one to EVER have problems with my babies. I am sorry but as for you asking me to credit you for the ones that perished that is not something I am willing to do. As my terms state on all my ads I guarantee live healthy arrival and I fulfilled that when they all arrived alive and healthy. I can not tell you why you are having any problems with them as all the other babies sold are doing great for the other purchasers. Also you received the animals over a month ago and if I were going to or able to do anything it would have had to been in the first 48 hours and not over a month later. Again I am sorry that you are having problems but I have literally sold hundreds from that same bloodline and have had absolutely no one else have any problems with them. If you have any questions please feel free to let me know.

Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:44 AM Other breeders usually stand behind their animals and warranty them for 30 days. The deaths occurred within that 30 day period. I am sorry you have NEVER had any problems with your dragons, I find that hard to believe. The fact is they are not growing and in were sold and shipped at such a young age it would be hard for you to know if there were any defects or genetic issues.

We stand behind our dragons and the fact is these are still in my possession because they will not grow to the size I find ETHICAL to sell them at six inches or 6 weeks of age for the public to purchase.


Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:57 AM As I stated before you knew my policy and terms on purchase and arrival of animals. They are clearly stated on EVERY ad I place as well as on my website. You agreed to these terms by your purchase. I guarantee live healthy arrival and in some circumstances will extend that to 48 hours after arrival. The animals you received were in perfect health, and had NO genetic problems what so ever. As you state "Other breeders usually stand behind their animals and warranty them for 30 days" there are very few that offer a 30 day guarantee on any live animal period but regardless if anyone else does that is not our policy and you were well aware of this when you purchased them. Again I do not know why you lost any of them and they are not growing like you wish but there was nothing wrong with the animals when you received them. Their age that they were sold and shipped at has nothing to do with it. Most of my wholesale customers that purchase entire clutches from this and my other bloodlines purchase them at that age and sometimes the day after they hatch. I will be responding to your other e-mail in reply to that e-mail..

Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:47 AM I don''t think it is to much to ask for you to stand behind what you are selling. If you will not issue a credit for the deceased non-viable dragons I will be forced to contest the charge to my credit card for the entire purchase.

Please work with me on this.

Sincerely,

Michael & Wendy Eves

Wednesday, June 25, 2003 11:19 AM As I have stated before I have shipped hundreds of this bloodline at that age and younger and have never had any problems with them. You yourself stated that when they arrived they were drinking and already nibbling on greens. That shows me that they were not stressed and were in good health.. Also Georgia Dept. of Agriculture requires YOU to provide health certificates not me nor anyone outside the state. That is a state requirement for its residents just as they require you to have the License in order to sell within the sate. Only out of state residents that want to sell within the state are required to have said license and provide health certificates while in the state..


Wednesday, June 25, 2003 11:15 AM Age at time of shipping does have a lot to do with it. STRESS STRESS on the animals. If they are not healthy when shipped the stress will bring the problems to the surface.

You also did not provide me with a health certificate when you shipped them to me so you can not gurantee that they were healthy. Georgia Dept. of Agriculture requires you to provide a certificate of health.



Sincerely,

Michael & Wendy Eves


Wednesday, June 25, 2003 11:20 AM As a matter of fact it is too much for me to issue you a refund, or credit on the dragons that you are referring to as the timeline is outside of our guarantee period (again which was clearly stated on the ad that you responded to as well as our website), also it was after 30 days that you contacted me regarding this issue which is after the time that I am able or willing to do anything about it. Your e-mail dated May 22 2003 states "Just wanted to let know they arrived this morning and are doing fine. They are drinking water all ready and a few are beginning to nibble on their greens." That tells me in itself that they arrived safe, healthy, & alive therefore I fulfilled my guarantee..
I will inform you of this, if you decide you want to try and contest the charges feel free to do so but be warned I will in turn pursue you, your partners and your buisness for fraud both with Paypal and your credit card company through my Attorney. You purchased the animals, they arrived safe, sound, alive, and healthy which fulfills my terms and guarantee. By you trying to contest the charges you will be trying to steal money from my buisness and this I will not tolerate..


Thursday, June 26, 2003 1:58 PM You are wrong. Any interstate sales of reptiles is monitored by the GA Dept. of Agriculture, that includes internet sales into the state of GA. All sales and importation within the State of GA require a health certificate be provided on the animals sold and imported.

Sincerely,

Michael & Wendy Eves

Thursday, June 26, 2003 2:01 PM You are the one who has committed fraud and I will pursue you too.

Sincerely,

Michael & Wendy Eves


Thursday, June 26, 2003 2:01 PM Your threats of legal action do not scare me, I am a private investigator and paralegal and know my rights. Just because they ate and drank when they arrived only says that they were hungry and thirsty.

I am not satisfied with what you represented to me as healthy animals and I have the right to contest a dispute with my charge company. As far as paypal, you have no grounds with them because in my opinion you misrepresented what you were shipping.


Sincerely,

Michael & Wendy Eves

Thursday, June 26, 2003 2:11 PM If you feel you want to waste your time and money fighting a refund request for $105.00 that is fine. I am not interested in contesting the charge of the entire lot of babies. I am only asking for a refund on the ones who were evidently not well to start with.

When I emailed you that they had arrived and were beginning to eat and drink I did not sit down and watch to see if every single dragon was partaking, only that in general and as an overall observation they appeared to be settling in.

You will waste far more trying to argue this.

Sincerely,

Michael & Wendy Eves

Thursday, June 26, 2003 3:11 PM First off I did not misrepresent anything regarding the animals. If you want to play games I will have no problems pursuing this through legal channels and through my Attorney. I to know my legal rights as well as I am an ex law Enforcement officer and I went to school to become an Attorney myself before changing career directions. You were well aware of the terms of my guarantee before you purchased the animals and I fulfilled the terms of my guarantee when they arrived alive and healthy. Even if I had offered a 30 day guarantee live you say some other breeders offer (which we do not offer, we offer live healthy arrival and in some instances 48 hours after arrival) you did not contact me until 32 days after their arrival. That would have voided any guarantee in that case as well. I have committed no fraud but if you try to contest the charges on the animals you will be committing fraud as you received exactly what you ordered when you were supposed to receive it. I am through with mincing words with you on this matter. You ordered the animals, I shipped them to you, you received them alive and healthy and that is the end of it. Do not bother e-mailing me again as I am done with responding to your threats, and desire to get a refund from me and my company which you will not receive and are not entitled to. As stated before, if you try and contest the charges then you will be committing fraud as you received exactly what you ordered when you were supposed to receive them..
them
me

 

[ms_terese]

Rob,

I don't think you have anything to be concerned about. PayPal will not take action on transactions more than 30 days old.

In addition, I have extensive experience working with credit card companies on chargeback issues from the retailer side. If you haven't done it yet, get hard copies and back up electronic copies of the emails, details with the PayPal transaction, and the shipping confirmation. You'll have plenty of documentation to support your case, and if they protest the charges and are found to be doing so fraudulently, the issuing banks very often stop allowing any purchases without signature so that it can't happen again. In other words, it will bite them in the behind if they choose to file a fraud complaint with the credit card company.

Sorry about the problems, and especially the little animals. Do you believe what has been said about their failure to thrive, and do you have any idea what might be causing it?

 

[Darin Chappell]

It's customers like those who make you appreciate the good ones, Huh? Man, I hate to see you have to go through the hassle of suing these people.

Maybe if they understand up front that you'll also be asking for reimbursement of all attorney's fees, court costs, and loss of time from your business pursuits, they'll think twice? After all, according to their reasoning, it's only a little over $100 bucks they're asking for . . .surely that's not so much for them to possibly gain, that they would be willing to lose a LOT more in court costs!

Even so, I wouldn't budge an inch. You met your guarantee, they didn't contact you for more than thirty days, and even if you were disposed to help them out, that garbage about contesting the entire purchase amount with their credit card company is completely fraudulent! That would have iced it for me! have your attorney send them a brief letter in his letterhead, and see if that doesn't change their tune a bit.

 

[dwedeking]

Wow. Thanks for the heads up Rob. Definitely a buyer to stay away from.

Like was said before, make copies of everything and keep them handy.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Thanks guys,

I have copies off all e-mails, payment receipt, and delivery confirmation from UPS. If they want to play games this will be a big lesson for them to learn by. I don't take anyone trying to defraud me nor my company lightly.
As far as the babies perishing, I have no idea why they would die. The animals were all right at 2 weeks old when they purchased them and were doing awesome.
Also another point that I forgot to add was in the beginning they did everything they could to haggle the prices lower and I did lower them and make them a sweeter deal than was advertised. The original prices $300 for a 10 lot including shipping and I told them I would let them have a 20 lot for $550 including shipping. They balked and complained still about the price and said that shipping was not as much as I was saying it was so I decided to let them have the 20 lot for $525 including shipping.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Here is another e-mail from them. Really shows their mentality and maturity level.

Should have known. Know your type well. Ex- law enforcement officer, "went to school" to be an attorney. Just couldn't cut it?

Sincerely,

Michael & Wendy Eves

 

[ms_terese]

Rob,

I've never heard of this company. Do you know if they're breeders, retail, internet...?

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Terese,

According to their web site they are

Georgia Bearded Dragons™ is family owned by small non-commercial hobbyists/private breeders of Inland Bearded Dragons

They say they are non-commercial but they advertise on KIngsnake and sell at shows.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Rob,

Have you notified them about this thread? Do they know about the existence of this forum?

Regards.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Daniel,

Yes I informed them that I posted on the BOI and gave them a link to it if they felt like posting. Below is the e-mail I sent them.

I have posted about this situation and what you are trying to pull on the Board of Inquiry for others to see and know what you are doing. If you feel like you need to respond there by all means do so as this will be my last e-mail to you directly.
Also the reasons that I am no longer a Law Enforcement officer or not still pursuing a career as an Attorney are none of your buisness nor do they concern you.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=13

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

And now they are threatning Libel and slander against them. See their e-mail.

Watch your step Mr. Attorney before you are looking at a case of libel and slander.

Sincerely,

Michael & Wendy Eves

 

[DThomas]

Here is another e-mail from them. Really shows their mentality and maturity level.

Should have known. Know your type well. Ex- law enforcement officer, "went to school" to be an attorney. Just couldn't cut it?

Sincerely,

Michael & Wendy Eves

Well, didn't one of them say they were a para-legal? I know those types very well, arm chair attorneys. Think they know the law because they shuffle papers for attorneys.

Thanks for the heads up Rob. I've have been watching your adds on Kingsnake and I think you are the one I will contact when I am ready to get my ETB's. I think you have been handling this very professionally and you should be commended for not losing your cool in the e-mails. Professionalism goes along way and these people need to learn that.

 

[Darin Chappell]

Once . . .just ONCE . . .I'd like to see some joker start making threats of legal ramifications on here and have that person actually understand the difference between libel and slander! A paralegal ought to know the difference, but apparently NOT!

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Thursday, June 26, 2003 5:16 PM First of all I am not trying to "Pull" anything. I am just trying to resolve a problem relating to a purchase. No action has been taken concerning anything that has been discussed merely just an attempt to resolve an issue. Any written statements or opinions from you are merely conjecture at this point relating to an attempt to resolve a dispute. At this point all I have done is request a credit for four deceased dragons and taken a load of insults from you. As far as your previous careers you were the one who volunteered your information.

What "board of inquiry" did you post too and what is the URL.

Sincerely,

Michael & Wendy Eves



Thursday, June 26, 2003 5:13 PM The link was in the last e-mail. All you have to do is read the e-mail and follow the link.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Here is the latest e-mail I recevied from them.

Notice is hereby given that you remove your post immediately as you are committing slander by implying that our company is committing fraud. No actions of fraud have been committed and your sharing your opinions or views on a public internet information site are libelous and slanderous.

I will forward this information to our attorney and if the post is not removed immediately you will be facing legal action

Sincerely,

Michael & Wendy Eves

 

[ms_terese]

No actions of fraud have been committed and your sharing your opinions or views on a public internet information site are libelous and slanderous.

Wow......so if you post their own words, that's libelous and slanderous?

Rob, what about their statement that you have to submit a bill of health if you sell animals in Georgia? Have you checked into that? It would be good to know for the rest of us that may have customers there.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Terese,

According to the Dept. Of Agriculture when I talked them last year (when we were going to vendor at the Atlanta show) they said the license requirement and the health certificate was only a requirement if I was in the state sellng animals. If I were to vendor at the show I would have to obtain the license and have a vet certify the animals at the show before they were sold. The state of Georgia does not govern sales outside the state. The person that is obtaining the animal is required to get a health certificate if they want to sell the animals. We decided against doing the show becuase of the HIGH cost of the license.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Here is another e-mail.

Thursday, June 26, 2003 5:56 PM You forgot to post one of the emails you sent me concerning your work as a law enforcement officer and going to school as an attorney. Don't you think you should include them all if you are so bent on venting your range over a mere request for a refund.

You also failed to post the email that stated I was not interested in pursuing contesting the entire charge amount, which came later in our discussion

Sincerely,

Michael & Wendy Eves

Thursday, June 26, 2003 5:56 PM Both of those e-mails ARE posted on there. Maybe you should look a little closer. If you want to respond please by all means respond on the thread as I will no longer be responding to your e-mails.

 

[DThomas]

So what is it, libel or slander? Libel applies to written statements and slander is used for spoken statements. Just so they are not confused anymore, I will post the Miriam-Websters Dictionary definition of both:

http://www.m-w.com

Main Entry: 1li·bel
Pronunciation: 'lI-b&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, written declaration, from Middle French, from Latin libellus, diminutive of liber book
Date: 14th century
1 a : a written statement in which a plaintiff in certain courts sets forth the cause of action or the relief sought b archaic : a handbill especially attacking or defaming someone
2 a : a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression b (1) : a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt (2) : defamation of a person by written or representational means (3) : the publication of blasphemous, treasonable, seditious, or obscene writings or pictures (4) : the act, tort, or crime of publishing such a libel

Hmmm, key words here are unjustly favorable impression and without just cause. He has provided proof that he is more than justified in his posts. Your threats of legal action or unprofessional at best, boarderline extortion at least.


Main Entry: 2slander
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sclaundre, slaundre, from Old French esclandre, from Late Latin scandalum stumbling block, offense -- more at SCANDAL
Date: 14th century
1 : the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage another's reputation
2 : a false and defamatory oral statement about a person -- compare LIBEL
- slan·der·ous /-d(&-)r&s/ adjective
- slan·der·ous·ly adverb
- slan·der·ous·ness noun

Well, this does not even apply unless we are all talking on VoIP or Roger Wilco and I highly doubt that.

Please, before you start spouting off about the law, do a little bit of research first. I would agree with you about the libel if he did not have any evidence to back his claims, but he has posted evidence to substantiate everything he has said. You on the other hand, have not.

 

[Seamus Haley]

It amuses me how a married couple claiming to be hobbiests suddenly become a "company" when it comes time to spout ignorant gibberish in an attempt to try and force you into doing something you're under no obligation to...

Wonder if they're actually incorporated... representing yourself as a company when it's not the case in order to present a fraudulent appearance when entering into business transactions occasionally has legal ramifications.