Glendon McDonald Poor Ethics?

[Rachel H.]

As to what Seamus had to say earlier

"However since Matt is here (and Rachel if she was there for the sale) how was this animal sold to Glenn? My understanding was that it was fifty dollars for an animal which was outwardly healthy upon cursory inspection but displaying an obvious deformity- a far cry from "Amazing beautiful one of a kind be the first to own this amazing new trait" which he was hyping it as on his ad."

We got the animal the previous day to the best of my recollection. I had been discussing the animal to almost everyone who came in that day that comes in on a regular basis. Glenn happened to show up. The people that I thought were capable of caring for this animal properly, were asked if they would like to buy it. He accepted, and paid for the snake. Before he took it, the animal was pulled from the bag and handled, to show him that it was rather calm for what it was. That's that. The day it came in Matt even said"I won't sell this to some beginner that's gonna get his face ripped off or do something stupid that he ought not do" His words, not exact, but you get the jist. Matt's a good judge of character, and he knew that Glenn would take good care of this animal and that he could handle the challenge.

 

[tool66]

Here's a thought. We know there were two snakes born w/o eyes. One was a female and one was a male. Glen owns the male. So how do we know that the female hasn't already been bred? He chose to sell the male, not the female. If he did sell the female to someone else then I'm sure rachel can correct me. And according to yasser's post, he was offered two female eyeless scrub pythons. Does this mean there are others out there already?

If glen does decide to breed the scrub it would have to be co-dominant anyways wouldn't it? There is always a chance when breeding but what if he bred his male w/ a patternless female and they all came out normal?

 

[Darin Chappell]

"There is always a chance when breeding but what if he bred his male w/ a patternless female and they all came out normal?"

Well, that's kind of the point ... now, isn't it?

What if they are all normal phenotypically yet carry the eyeless gene as a heterozygote. What then? They get sold all over the place and continue to spread the gene until eyeless homozygotes start appearing at not so random intervals???

You guys just don't get it do you?

OK ... fine. I'm finished. I'd freeze that snake in a second just so I would not be partially responsible for what appears to be taking hold in a species whose genepool is already shallow enough here in the States. Not everyone shares my convictions, and some do not even share my ethics.

I tried.

 

[tool66]

I understand your point of view, well except for killing the snake, but what about the fact that yasser was offered two females, glen has a male, and the other guy still has the female? What if some person is breeding these eyeless snakes already? There is a chance that 4 of these snakes exist from different breeders. Maybe this is a trait that is carried through patternless scrub pythons. If that is the case then we need to cull all of them correct?

 

[Wilomn]

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Originally posted by wilomn
Even a horrible picture would be good at this point. Most cameras today can take a heck of a picture from even 5 feet away and I'd sure like to see this animal. See if you can't get one posted please.
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quote:
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Originally posted by wilomn
Where's the picture? How long does it take to take another picture of a snake you already have in your possession? If your girlfriend has pics post those.
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I am not sure if you took the time to read my previous post, but let me repost it for you, because you are special, just so you can reread it. Here you go, I have highlighted the important words just for you, since it seems you like to skip reading posts.


quote:
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I will say it again, I have seen this animal in person, I stood about 5' from the beautiful animal, I did not want to get any closer. This animal is one of the most amazing looking animals that I think I have ever seen, well next to any Granite Burm, but that is another topic all together. If this animal would have been culled at birth, no one would be able to appreciate it's beauty. I will talk to Glenn and see if I can get some better pics. Yes, I do have some, but they are horrible, as my girlfriend was taking them, and she did not want to get extrememly close to it, and she does not have a Internet connection.
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Let me know if you have problems reading this one, since you seem to have skipped it, or ignored it for some reason, and I will repost it, just for you.

Jason


jason, do you ever go VISIT your girlfriend or is it strictly a phone call relationship? If you do visit her is it so difficult to get those pictures from her that you could not accomplish this task?

In your quote above you state that YOU have pictures. Who has the pictures jason?

Would it be possible to see what this snake looks like in the next day or so?

I'm not going to bother highlighting for you, and thanks for the help by the way, but I did use small words and type real slow so you would hopefully understand what I was asking you to do this time.

get the pictures from your girlfriend and post them please or, better yet, take some more today and post those

 

[Spitfire]

To clarify my thoughts,
I believe the two females offered to us were in fact the same snakes. Perhaps they were mis-sexed when offered to me. Or perhaps they are mis-sexed now. I seriously doubt they have been reproduced yet in captivity considering there are perhaps 8 patternless specimens in the USA currently, two of which are lacking eyes and the rest coming in as imports. I am an enormous scrub fanatic and would LOVE to get my hands on more of the patternless ones. I firmly believe the patternless trait has yet to be reproduced. We've been trying for 5 years with 2.2 and have gotten nothing more than 3 copulations in 2002-2003.
I'd like to think that if patternless animals were reproduced, I would have heard about it by now just through the breeder trying to sell babies to me or at least contacting me regarding the breedings and potential value, etc. I am fully aware that I don't know every person attempting to breed scrubs, but I do try to keep up with nearly every person who works with them over the last several years we have been doing so.

 

[tool66]

Thanks yasser, that clarifys a little. So if there are only 8 in the country, it wouldn't be worth it to try and breed simply for the fact that it is patternless. These things are rare to begin with right? From what you said it's next to impossible to breed these things anyways.

 

[Spitfire]

But why establish CB animals from such a small gene pool that could include eyeless specimens. For the record, I voted that the snake should be excluded from breeding and given the life of being strictly a pet.
Why is there a need to produce a trait that is flawed? Just to be the first? I'd rather be known for being the 100th to producing healthy patternless Southerns than being the first to produce eyeless patternless Southerns.
Aside from that, there will be more imported...it is just a matter of whose hands they land in. If they fall into the hands of a capable breeder then good things may result. But like many morphs and rare species, they sit around,slowly wasting away at an importers facility until top dollar is paid. Even then scrubs tend to be kicked around from owner to owner strictly because many folks don't have the patience to wait for the results of a VERY long term project. This "musical ownership" ends in a scrub that will never settle down enough to breed. Scrubs have proven to be some of the most difficult animals to acclimate. Not to acclimate for feeding but to acclimate for breeding. It can take 5-7 years in the same collection and the same cage before they settle enough to reproduce successfully. But there are always exceptions where imports reproduce the year they come in.

 

[gamerjjt]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by wilomn
Even a horrible picture would be good at this point. Most cameras today can take a heck of a picture from even 5 feet away and I'd sure like to see this animal. See if you can't get one posted please.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by wilomn
Where's the picture? How long does it take to take another picture of a snake you already have in your possession? If your girlfriend has pics post those.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I am not sure if you took the time to read my previous post, but let me repost it for you, because you are special, just so you can reread it. Here you go, I have highlighted the important words just for you, since it seems you like to skip reading posts.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will say it again, I have seen this animal in person, I stood about 5' from the beautiful animal, I did not want to get any closer. This animal is one of the most amazing looking animals that I think I have ever seen, well next to any Granite Burm, but that is another topic all together. If this animal would have been culled at birth, no one would be able to appreciate it's beauty. I will talk to Glenn and see if I can get some better pics. Yes, I do have some, but they are horrible, as my girlfriend was taking them, and she did not want to get extrememly close to it, and she does not have a Internet connection.
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Let me know if you have problems reading this one, since you seem to have skipped it, or ignored it for some reason, and I will repost it, just for you.

Jason


jason, do you ever go VISIT your girlfriend or is it strictly a phone call relationship? If you do visit her is it so difficult to get those pictures from her that you could not accomplish this task?

In your quote above you state that YOU have pictures. Who has the pictures jason?

Would it be possible to see what this snake looks like in the next day or so?

I'm not going to bother highlighting for you, and thanks for the help by the way, but I did use small words and type real slow so you would hopefully understand what I was asking you to do this time.

get the pictures from your girlfriend and post them please or, better yet, take some more today and post those

Wes, I understand what you are saying. Me and my girlfriend both work 60-70 hrs per week, so we don't see much of each other, and we don't live together, so I guess you can say, yes, it is a phone call relationship, which is perfectly cool by me.

I have talked to Glenn today, and will to the best of my ability, get someone else to take different pics, post them on his website, and I will pull them down so everyone can see this majestic animal. I will try my damnest to get them this week. I cannot guarantee when, because of the simple fact that I work so much, and Glen has a job as well. You have to understand that. Dang, I feel like I am talking to my 3 year old son. Not all of us can sit at home all day, and play on the internet.

Jason

 

[tool66]

Thanks yasser. It looks like it would be a giant pain in the butt to try and breed this snake regardless if it was eyeless or not. Glen wants to talk to the original breeders before making any rash decisions. How big is the market for patternless scrubs? From what I have heard they don't tend to be a docile snake when they get older. They are also a more expensive snake so they probably don't sell as easily as say ball pythons, columbian boas, etc. Being a scrub enthusiasts, what do you think the snake is worth as a pet since it is patternless and it is a very healthy snake?

 

[Lucille]

Corey, I can now see why Seamus' icon is someone beating his head on a desk, that is how I feel now. You are saying Glenn is not going to make rash decisions: he has ALREADY said, IN PRINT, here, that he will breed the snake. He has also, in several places, stated he will NOT sell this animal, and yet here you are sending feelers out as to its possible value on the market.
I do not know WHAT is going on, but the word of either of y'all does not carry much weight, in my book.
Also, for the time you have taken spouting all of this stuff, sitting in front of your computer, you could have gotten a photo. I wonder why you are spending so much time NOT posting it....

 

[Gromph Baenre]

Lucille,
I believe Corey has not stated he has pics of this specimen. It is Jason and his girlfriend who have pics of the animal from this past weekends show.
I do recall Glenn stating that he was going to breed the animal, however, it is HIS property, and he can do with his property what he sees fit. I may not agree with his choice to breed the animal but in the end, he paid for it, he is housing the animal and feeding it, and who are we to tell a grown adult what he can or can not do with his property?


Best regards,

Carson Grindstaff

 

[Darin Chappell]

Carson.

As far as I know, no one has tried to take away the property rights that are reserved fro Mr. McDonald in this issue. It is his animal, and he has every right to do with it as he solely sees fit. No questions asked; that's the way it is and ought to be.

However, with rights also come responsibilities. He is also solely responsible for his behavior in connection with that animal, and THAT is why his actions are fair game to be taken into consideration on a forum such as this. If he breeds that animal and allows this potentially genetic condition to be exposed to a genepool that is already extremely limited in scope, it is perhaps the most unethical thing I've seen done in the herp world.

Carson, you did not say this to my knowledge, so please do not think that this part is directed at you...

but I am amazed at those who want to yell about this animal as a life to be saved. Have they not considered all of the damage that can potentially be done to ALL scrub pythons, if this were a dominant or codominant genetic defect??? With so few animals in country, breeding one that has no eyes (with an eyeless sibling no less!) is simply unconscienable!!! What was it that someone said? There are eight patternless scrubs in the US and TWO of them have no eyes!?!?!?. That's 25% of the potential breeding population (a fairly mendelian percentage if I ever saw one), and you all are worried about TWO animals instead of ALL of them???

It's just insane, in my opinion.

 

[tool66]

If you would read rachel's post you would see that there have been lengthy discussions IN PERSON where glen stated he wasn't going to breed the snake. He would have to find another patternless scrub python female first, and from what yasser said, that isn't very easy. And carson is right, I don't have pictures to the snake. I don't have any way of posting pics either. As far as spouting off, I am just asking questions and stating my opinion. If you feel that you are "beating your head against the desk" then why waste your time replying to my posts? As I recall, my last post yesterday asked YASSER how much he thinks the snake is worth. He seems to know more about scrub pythons than most of the people on this site. I didn't ask if he would want to buy the snake or how much glen should sell it for. Just wanted to know what it would be worth.

 

[Gromph Baenre]

Darin,
You need not give disclaimers as I do not take anything you say to be a personal attack or a grouping of me with other folks. I have always found you to be highly objective and reasonable in your posts.

This is obviously a heated debate and there have been a myriad of opinions posted. Just that opinions. I happen to coincide with your thoughts on preserving gene pool. I do not concur with putting the animal down at this stage in its life. From all descriptions the animal has improvised, overcome and adapted to its disabilities.

Your statement about with rights come responsibilities, I could not agree with you more. It is my belief that I, as a consumer, have a responsbility to know the person I am dealing with, and the husbandry requirements of the animal I may be purchasing. How does all this relate to the current situation you might ask? The amount of replies and expressed opinions should give the responsible consumer all the information they need to make an informed decision. Anything you, I , or anyone else says is not going to change Mr. McDonalds stance. That really was never my intention, just perhaps, like you, to give Mr. McDonald a different and broader way to look at things.

Best regards,

Carson Grindstaff

 

[snakegetters]

Originally posted by Darin Chappell but I am amazed at those who want to yell about this animal as a life to be saved. Have they not considered all of the damage that can potentially be done to ALL scrub pythons, if this were a dominant or codominant genetic defect??? With so few animals in country, breeding one that has no eyes (with an eyeless sibling no less!) is simply unconscienable!!! What was it that someone said? There are eight patternless scrubs in the US and TWO of them have no eyes!?!?!?. That's 25% of the potential breeding population (a fairly mendelian percentage if I ever saw one), and you all are worried about TWO animals instead of ALL of them???

It's just insane, in my opinion.

It is easier to take life away than to give it back. Even the life of a handicapped snake deserves serious consideration before you decide to snuff it out.

The animal can be prevented from breeding either by a veterinary operation or by a responsible person keeping it as a non breeding pet for the remainder of its natural life. It does not need to be killed, period.

But if no one wishes to spend the money on a snake spay/neuter (they aren't cheap) and if no one can be trusted to keep the snake as just a pet, at least have it euthanized in a humane manner. The freezer is not humane reptile anesthesia particularly for larger snakes whose outer tissues will freeze and crystallize painfully before their core temperature drops low enough to cause death.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Got a question here...

A woman named Kim was bitten on the wrist by a scrub python at a show in Texas recently... Needed to go to the emergency room for stitches because it had tagged her in a manner that tore her open down to the muscle tissue. Accounts say that the snake was blind.

On this thread a few people local to Glenn have stated that there was an incident at the show which made them certain the animal would have no trouble locating prey.

Any connection between these two events? Like... did Glenn's scrub decide to act like a scrub and take someone out?

If so, it entirely destroys a number of points which have been made. Glenn claimed the animal was feeding well, was in perfect health, did not experience any pain from the deformity (I still want to know how this is determined) and was in every manner perfect. Glenn also said it was the most docile snake he had ever seen.

Nobody who has posted on this thread had this animal in their posession long enough to make ANY determinations about it's health, well being or the strength of it's defensive responses. I would say that this came back to bite Glenn in the ass but I suspect very strongly that someone else got bit for his mistakes.

If it's the same animal... it might not be but the coincidences are building up quick if it wasn't... then this incident should soundly defeat any arguments as to the snake's quality of life being affected, since nobody who has yet posted has owned it long enough to determine that, it is an unknown. It should also perhaps shake Glenn up enough so that he might try reading and attempting to understand the arguments of people who disagree with his actions but that might be too much to hope for. Ideally he'd begin to agree, but right now I get a sense that he hasn't even tried to understand why people are uppity about the whole thing.

 

[tool66]

I know you guys don't like me posting for glen but if you want an answer to the previous question then this is the only way. This is straight from his mouth:

1. THE LADIES NAME WAS LYNN AND SHE IS A FRIEND OF GLENS AND WAS A VENDOR AT THE SHOW.

2. THE CUT WAS EXTREMELY MINOR, DID NOT REQUIRE STITCHES AND WAS NO WHERE NEAR "tore her open down to the muscle tissue"... MATTER OF FACT, SHE WAS BACK AT THE SHOW THE SAME AFTERNOON.
3. EVEN LYNN HAS SAID THAT THE SNAKE BITE WAS ENTIRELY HER FAULT DUE TO THE FACT THAT SHE REACHED FOR THE SNAKES HEAD WHILE PEOPLE WERE TAKING PICTURES.
4. THE SNAKE HAD BEEN OUT EARLY THAT DAY AT THE SHOW FOR OVER AN HOUR AND SHOWED NOT EVEN A HINT OF AGGRESSION TOWARDS THE 3 OR 4 PEOPLE, MY WIFE INCLUDED, WHO WAS WALKING IN THE VICINITY OF THE ANIMAL.

LYNN WAS BIT DUE TO HER NEGLIGENCE AFTER SHE HAD BEEN HANDLING SUGAR GLIDERS AND GUINEA PIGS ALL DAY AND THEN TRIED TO PET THE SNAKE ON THE HEAD.

SO THE NEXT TIME YOU DECIDE TO COME ON AND POST ABOUT HOW "THIS HAS COME BACK TO BITE GLEN IN THE ASS"...GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT BECAUSE NOW YOU LOOK LIKE THE FOOL...NOT ME. YOUR INFORMATION WAS COMPLETLEY INACCURATE DOWN TO THE NAMES, THE SEVERITY OF THE BITE AND THE TEMPERMENT OF THE SNAKE.

BY THE WAY THE SNAKE WILL BE BACK ON DISPLAY THIS WEEKEND AT PET STUFF BY REQUEST OF THE SHOP OWNER. FOR THE LOCATION YOU CAN SEARCH BACK THROUGH THE THREAD FOR STORE LOCATION

 

[Wilomn]

I see and thank you for explaining what REALLY happened.

This blind snake had a REACTION to the people taking PICTURES of it. Okayyyyyyyyyy, if you say so.

This woman, who apparently was stupid, and yes I mean stupid, enough to try to pet this, what 12 foot scrub, had been handling gliders and guinea pigs WITHOUT washing her hands? Okayyyyyyyy, if you say so.

The snake was only there for about the last half hour of the show, according to you in prior posts, and yet she went to the hospital and was back "later that afternoon" at the show. Okayyyyyy, if you say so.

I don't suppose there is ANY chance of there EVER being photos posted here, is there? It's really no big deal, I'd just like to see what this snake looks like.

Oh well, like so much else that you and your friend have posted, I guess disappointment is all we'll really get out of any conversation with either of you.

 

[KodiakWood]

Ok Lynn got tagged by the Snake in Question ....we know it was Glens snake....ok....Lynn if your reading this Shame on you ....anybody with any experence{sp?] KNOWS YOU DONT HANDLE RODENTS then play or pet a snake Blind or not Tag your it..... Ok now that is out of the way DOES A PICTURE OF THIS Snake exsist....I have a picure of every snake I own ....i take the picture as soon as they hit thier tank I use it for references as they grow I'D like really see a Picture and so would everybody that posted here So Glen Whip Out The Old Poloroid Snap a picture Scan It And post it Please.....I mean you think It is such a excellent snake I think you'd be proud to show it off......JMHO