Glendon McDonald Poor Ethics?

[Bringerofdoom]

look at cats. thanks to one idiot in europe there exist 2 species of cat that he bred for the soul purpose of a defect. now over the 40 years of turning out these deformed babies from it, it gets a name and status as a breed of a cat.

to me imo opinion this moron should have never bred this deformity. let alone anyplace that gives breed status to it and awards this guy with a unique breed name.

if anyone doesnt know what im talking about read http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/profiles/scottish.html that. to me its a ugly cat, that never ever should have been bred.

to me breeding for a gentic defect is about the same as breeding direct siblings to improve the color and to make the specific trait stronger. they should both be highly frowned upon.

i will admit, i once bred animals for a gentically defective trait. it wasnt a sicking trait though. it was for a thyriod type problem, that would cause the dogs to grow into their 3rd years. they had always proven very healthy despite being over 100+ lbs(chows and labs were parents) and 2-3x bigger than usual. we had taken one of the puppies to a vet once and got a good laugh. she remarked "thats one healthy 10 week old puppy you got there" i just liked the expression on her face when i informed her it was 5 1/2 weeks old at the time.

i dont see what i did was wrong, there are many cases where animals were bred for size. either to improve the size or to dwarf it. thats totally different than breeding for lack of eyes and other anomolies like that though.

 

[Sand&SunReptile]

Wow, this is a nice long thread.
This guy is a moron, and I hope he decided on keeping it strictly as a pet, never breeding.
I dont think he should euthanize the animal, as everything deserves a chance to live, but it shouldnt even be near a female, or a male if it's female...

 

[glenn]

my snake

Is this debate over my snake still going on???? My word.......ddddaaaaaammmmmnnnnn jackie!!!! sorry...a buddy just called and let me know the thread had come back up...i haven't signed on for a couple of months, but i was amazed that this is still ongoing...pretty funny in my opinion....
but to whom it may concern....my snake is fine, healthy and absolutely beautiful........everyone who has seen him has been amazed and completely blown away by him....but thanks for keeping my name going...kinda cool to see my name in print again.....
laaaateeeezzzzzzzz

 

[Rachel H.]

Man, this is amazing. People are still responding to this thread. Atleast it's not as heated as it was. Oh, Glenn. I saw a scrub at the show this weekend, it was so tiny compared to yours. Guy wouldn't let me hold it. Shoulda had Lynne take a look,haha.

 

[glenn]

cruel.....

see racheal......that is just one of the many reasons you're going to hell.....heh heh....pretty funny though!!! oh, and as a matter of fact, he's getting ready to shed....i finally figured out what to look for in his pattern to tell when he's getting ready to shed...no reall tell-tell sign, but one thing i finally saw...i'll talk to you when i'm in matt's this weekend...
later redneck...ha !!!!!

 

[Nirvana]

OK....

I can see that this thread is real old, and replying to it is kinda dumb, but since everyone in the western hemisphere has already put in their two cents, here's my one complaint:

My compaint actually has nothing to do with the eyeless snake, but with the gentleman who compared the Scottish fold breed of cats to the eyeless snake. Scottish folds are wonderful cats whose "deformity" in no way affects their way of life. They have no difficulty hearing; in fact, the only consideration a Fold owner must make regarding the folded ears is to be very dilligent in keeping them clean.

In addition, due to the fact that the fold mutation is an incomplete dominant trait, these cats are much less inbred than many other breeds of dog and cat. Folds are often outcrossed to American and British shorthairs, thus eliminating many common problems associated with inbreeding (the scary little recessive traits that crop up among the children of close relatives, such as an allergy to sunlight in certain breeds of dog). Problems will result if two fold eared cats are bred together -- the mutation is a cartilage defect, I believe, and in heterozygous animals manifests only in folded ears. Homozygous fold-eared animals will exhibit weak body structure due to difficulty forming cartilage properly. Therefore, ethical breeders simply do not breed fold cats to fold cats.

OK, that's my rant . . . The point being, I don't think you really can compare the deliberate breeding of a benign mutation which in no way affects the well-being of the animal with an obviously malignant mutation which most likely has a significant impact on the animal's quality of life.

Oh, and Scottish folds are painfully adorable and there shall be no debate on that.

That's it for me, and maybe this thread, we hope.

 

[Bringerofdoom]

yes, i know it was a bad comparison. my point to it was that breed would have never existed if the guy never bred that cat on the intention on passing the "trait". even in the end it the cat gets a breed status and can even compete in a cat show. what i am saying is that it gives people a bad example that breeding for defects can be good.

 

[Nirvana]

Well...

OK, I'll give you that. I just really love Scottish folds.

I know it's a defect, and could easily have been detrimental, and you're right that it probably wasn't very responsible of the original owner of the cat (I think her name was Suzie) to try and breed for a defect without knowing its potential effects. After all, a homozygous fold DOES show severe structural malformation, and that's certainly not a good thing. So yes, I agree; breeding for defects is, in general, an irresponsible thing to do.

...But, isn't that what a large portion of dog and cat breeding is? Either line breeding to increase the intensity of a certain discontinuous variation (often to the point of hurting the animal or breed), or breeding for a defect, such as floppy ears, crimpy hair, etc.? I'm not saying it's right, just saying that I think a lot of dog and cat breeding (though CERTIANLY not all) is centered around making weirder and more extreme forms of animal, some or which are derived from genetic defects.

 

[glenn]

small update on my snake

well just as an update to everyone who took part in this huge controversy......
1. THIS snake (i'm not saying ALL scrubs), seems to have adapted by becoming nocturnal...i noticed his lack of daytime movement but asumed that this was simply him acclamating to his new environment (a 240 gal terrarium). i noticed when i went in to check on my animals before leaving for work (my automatic timers are set up in 12 hour increments 7am to 7 pm), that he was fully strecthed out and active.....
2. from this i learned sunny point 2....he relys on his sense of smell AND his heat senses to feed...i noticed that he scent marks every inch of his habitat (hidebox, waterbowl, logs &limbs etc..) and continuosly goes over and over everything repeatedly (i'm guessing to make HIS scent extremely recognizable to him)...any time that i have cleaned his cage and had to move some items around, he is back scent marking that same night over anything i touched....from an adjoining room i have been able to watch him feed....the light that is emiting from this room is not enough to throw off his heat sensors apparently...he tracks the rats using the scent of his enclosure and using his heat tracking, seems to zero in on the target, strike and catch his prey w/o missing....this is truelly an amazing thing to watch....
3. shedding and growth...this proved very difficult in establishing a pattern...in most snakes you can tell by the greying of the eyes that the snake is beggining the shedding process...my snake is eyeless....also his patternless color does not allow for a noteable change in pigment which would also be a hint to a new shed coming....i have now realized that his color will not change, but the reflection from this prizm on his pattern does...this was when i realized this was his only tale tale sign......
4. his demeanor has not changed much...he is still a pretty mild tempered animal....i take him out into my yard on sunny days and put him into his own little sapling i have in my front yard (about 10 ft tall and around 6-8 inches in diameter)...he seems to really enjoy just hanging out in the top of it soaking up some uv rays and harrasing all the birds who freak out when they realize he's there....

i am extremely pleased that i have had the fortunate experience to posses one of these amazing creatures. i am currently trying to locate the owner of the female and work a deal to purchase her as well....don't worry I HAVE NO INTENTIONS OF BREEDING THESE ANIMALS......i pretty much said everything previously just to piss of the moral majority who decided to appoint themselves judge jury and executioner into the ethics of the entire herping community....i am currently waiting for my female aregentine to breed as well as my blood python.....so i've got enough on my plate....

but as i stated, just kind of an update on the little bit of research i have been able establish over the past 3-4 months....

 

[Wilomn]

Everytime I read glenn's last post I just get such a chuckle.

Just think of all those poor fools who went to school for YEARS or have had decades of personal experiance with reptiles that he can edumacate.

Scrubs use heat to find their prey!!!! And HE discovered this. And smell too, they use that as well. I, for one, am simply amazed that he figured this out in such a short amount of time.

I wonder if all pythons use their sense of smell as well as some sort of heat detecting abilities to find prey? Gosh, I hope glenn can expand his research to encompass more pythons species. I bet African Rock pythons would be a good species to work with for him.

glenn, you be sure and keep us posted on all your scientific findings.

 

[1216dex]

these cats are much less inbred than many other breeds of dog and cat

all domestic cat and dog breeds are very highly inbred, period
J. Dustin Loy

 

[TooManyBurmese]

Mike Mclaughlin, it's been mentioned several times that the comparison between snakes and human babies or children is just sensationalistic rubbish. You cannot compare the life of a baby human being to a scrub python.

This thread was started because the abnormality of a reptile that was "not a morph" was being heightened and put in a postive light in an attempt to "albino ball python" this abnormality (I think that's a clever little analogy hee hee). And the thread starter felt that this was unethical and immoral.

As for someone who mentioned abortions (in the 40's pages I think), that goes hand in hand with "freedom". I enjoy having the freedom to have an abortion as a woman if I may ever need to. I also enjoy having the freedom of being allowed to euthanize an animal in obvious pain or distress (as I do often working an informal rescue). I enjoy having the freedom to "sterilize" my dogs to disallow creating more unwanted dogs in shelters. Legalized abortion does not necessarily mean that humans now cull their own young as easily as mouse breeders do their mice. It just means there is another option to the many out there regarding human life. It may seem immoral to some, but regarless it's now our law as citizens of this country.

I also chose option three in the poll. If the animal can live and eat on it's own, it should be sterilized and either sold or given away as a pet. As a breeder of small animals I do cull my gerbils, mice, and rabbits. Fortunately I have snakes to take care of the culling. Maybe if this was a corn snake or other more easily bred snake it should have been culled, but I am confident knowing that these are difficult to breed and maybe the owner will have no luck. I also feel although he hasn't outright said it, he may have had a change of heart and realize breeding this animal is not his choice now.

For me his credibility was completely lost not about the original ad that sparked this debate, but when he created fake aliases to back him on these issues. To a non breeder, such as myself, that also has a small collection of bought animals from breeders, I do a lot of research before purchasing an animal. Maybe you should keep in mind that as a person that fits into a group that is responsible for at least half of a breeders' sales, that is a big turn off.

If the person who had created that ad had come forward themselves without the fake username and coworker, and had said "I have read through this thread and I do respect your opinions, but since I do not share them, we will have to simply agree to disagree" (or something along those lines), the debate itself over his ethics would have ended.

The BOI syndrome would have probably continued this thread the full 67 pages it is now, but at least we could have respected him as an honest person, if not a responsible one. "That guy is doing something I think is wrong, but at least he is honest and up front about it". It may still anger many people but when it came down to it, he had the guts to stand up for himself and the guts to be mature about it and the guts to be HONEST.

To those of you with large egos and fiery tempers, perhaps you should think about this. If you look you will see that most BOI threads have MANY more views than posts. That means there are MANY potential customers out there reading what you write and how you present yourself and your side of the debate, and they never enter the debate themselves. Can you imagine how many sales you throw away by one single thread of "You're dumb, you must be a homosexual" that you may write in the heat of the moment? All it takes is ONE post like that. Even if you have 1200 posts to your name, all it takes is ONE customer seeing that ONE post and being FOREVER turned off to you. Not many people want to do business with someone they feel will either lie to them, cheat them, or simply insult them when they need a wrong righted.

I see a lot of people here that I am so intimidated by their tempers and the way they tear people down for a small disagreement that I will never buy from them. I am not a loud or very angry person, I would never be able to stand up for myself if I was legitimately wronged, especially if I knew they might personally insult me in a public forum.

 

[LadyofDragons]

Oh please let's not get started on this subject again. I am so over this mess.

 

[Chris@TSE]

*sigh* lol

 

[TooManyBurmese]

::sheepish:: Sorry, I just click on the new posts button when I log in and this popped up the other day And yes, I had the time to read all 66 pages

 

[reptilebreeder]

Oh please let's not get started on this subject again. I am so over this mess.

Ummmm, I didn't even notice it bumped up when Danni posted, not till you posted 4 days later did I notice, so would you please not get started on this subject again

Now my post is not really in the irony catagory as the above post, because I don't care when threads bump back up, because I either read them or mark them as read if I'm not interested. I'm just being ornery (sp?)

:deer:

 

[TooManyBurmese]

How can you be ornery on this day of all days?

And was this ever resolved?

 

[Bill_Leverton]

WHAT IS this Resurrect the Dead Day???????

 

[Wilomn]

It's a poll guys, everytime someone votes on it, it's bumped back to the top.

 

[Bill_Leverton]

My bad Wes I forgot that it was a poll