Glendon McDonald Poor Ethics?

[Seamus Haley]

I use the search new posts feature when logging into the site and wander through the list, it gives me all the BOI, GBD and husbandry discussions as well as the titles of ads that I might be interested in...

There was one which mentioned "eyeless scrub" so I had to open it, even though I don't want a scrub python. Here's a link for as long as it lasts

Here's the text of the original ad-

Yellow anacondas and eyeless scrub python
Dig it.....I have 2 male yellow anacondas for sale. $225 obo. (shipping included)
6 ft' male columbian boa. super docile, finicky eater though. $200 obo

I also have managed to acquire a 12' patternless eyeless australian scrub python. This is one of the most beautiful and truelly exotic things I've ever seen. I may be interested in selling if the right price is offered. I will be going to a herp show this weekend so if anyone is interested, contact me before then.

Here's a reply I posted onto that thread...

I'm sorry, I just need a little clarification here... Are you maintaining that being eyeless is a positive thing? A rare and desireable trait which makes the animal MORE valuable rather than less?

Why is it eyeless? Injury or born that way? It DOES make a difference... If it was an injury, can you describe what happened?

"The right price" for an eyeless snake is "Free" because it's what's technically known as a "Rescue" or a "Charity case"

And here's the response that was given by the seller...

It was definately born with the trait. I have already had a couple of offers that are far more than what I paid for it. I've also spoke with several other people who are interested in purchasing one should I breed it and be able to promote and produce juveniles carrying the same trait and gene that creates the mutation. The snake is extremely healthy and beaituiful and an EXTREMELY good eater (2-3 small rabbits).

Now... I don't know this guy, so I can't call him a bad guy outright but promoting a deformity of this nature as a positive trait and encouraging it within the breeding population shows a massive lack of ethics. Boa breeders are all worked up trying to PREVENT eyeless albinos and here's someone who has a prime oppurtunity to stamp out a negative trait (be it genetic or not) in another species and they are doing the exact opposite.

Am I alone in thinking that only some kind of twisted immoral dirtbag would do something like this?

Does anyone know this guy personally that might be willing to kick a little common sense into him and explain how wrong and negative it is to be doing this?

I guess it's for every given individual to judge but... I know that I would never give any money, time or respect to someone who's so profit driven that they would encourage a negative trait with a possible genetic cause... CULL this animal, don't hike the price up or encourage it to be bred.

 

[Lucille]

I very much agree with you. I think it is an outrageous ripoff and an incredible abuse of our common sense to try to sell a deformed animal like this. And to even think of adding it to any breeding project would make me permanently lose respect for anyone proposing such an idea.

 

[Lucille]

Oh yeah and I think he is lying if he says he got any offers on that poor deformed, handicapped animal. While the old saying 'there's a sucker born every minute' is true, it is hard to believe there is anyone educated enough to read that would be stupid enough to pay money for such a creature.
I'm sorry, I prolly such earned my first point ever, but as a nurse I feel strongly about animal welfare, and it is certainly not in any animal's best interests to be born this way accidentally, much less intentionally.....

 

[JJFOUTZ]

I think he is more than willing to breed this animal if he can make a profit from it at all. I have no respect for someone that is that money driven and cares so little for the gene pool of the animals that he is working with. I would hate to see his husbandry practices considering his lack of caring and respect for the animals in his care.

 

[Darin Chappell]

The problem with people like this is that they simply have no respect ... none for the animal in question, and none for those who keep the species.

Yes, that animal, having been born without eyes does not realize that there is anything wrong, and it likely functions fairly close to normally, although it's strike to hit ratio is likely higher than normal. But why condemn future generations to the possibility of ALSO having to adjust in this way? There is no benefit to it, and no reason a herper would desire the trait, except to satisfy some morbid urge toward deformity in animals, that I cannot even fathom in my own mind.

HOWEVER...

What I personally find even more offensive, is the total disregard for the gene pool of a species overall. I find it absolutely unconscienable that someone would willingly pollute a gene pool for their own kicks and grins or profit, when the results could be so devastating to the population as a whole.

People always seem to think that they can breed whatever they want and it will have no long term effects, but that is just so short sighted. The fact is that if you take a glass of water and add a single drop of iodine, that water can never be pure again. Oh, you can dillute and distill the water until it is effectively pure, but there will always be that one molecule that is there to spoil the water. You may never know, but then again, you may be allergic to iodine, and have a reaction because you took a sip of something you THOUGHT was pure!

Imagine the owner of a scrub python years down the road, who breeds his animal and has offspring that are ... SUPRISE!!! ... eyeless. Is he going to think it is "exotic?" No, he's going to be ticked off that his animals are doomed to a life of deformity, and being a responsible breeder, he will cull them, taking the loss of potential profits down the tube. He will cull them all, because he knows that even those with eyes are likely carrying the gene for eyelessness, and he does not want to propigate what some idiot started years before. He will lose his entire investment, because he also has to never again breed those normally appearing breeders which obviously BOTH carry the eyeless gene. So, for THAT guy, it's a total loss ... just because someone thought it was "cool" to breed an eyeless scrub python once.

Of course the unethical breeder, following in the footsteps of Mr. McDonald, just ships them out without a word, and sells the eyeless ones as freak show exhibits to the next generation of morons. The cycle continues, and the ethical breeders are still at the mercy of the unethical.

Mr. McDonald, that animal belongs in a freezer. Please have the moral fortitude to take a one time loss for the good of this species. If you fail in this, countless others will be harmed in the process. No real effect will come upon you though, because no one will likely recall what part you played in all of this. However, as one politician noted, "Character is defined by what you do when nobody sees you." What sort of character will you have?

 

[Gecko_Den]

Darin,

"Mr. McDonald, that animal belongs in a freezer."....

While I agree it should never be bred, if it is healthy and has adapted to being able to function normally, why should it be put down? I would think that as long as it isn't suffering it could be kept alive as a pet.

 

[Darin Chappell]

Well, "suffering" is a relative term, isn't it? Personally, I just would not keep an animal with such deformities alive. Not only because I think the difficulties it would face are too severe to justify its continued living, but also because breeding accidents DO happen, and I'd much rather put down one deformed animal than a whole clutch of babies that are POSSIBLY carrying a hidden gene that promotes that defromity.

If you had such an animal in your collection, and a female was even temporarily exposed to that animal by accident, any clutch she produced could be tainted. How can you weigh the life of one animal versus the potential lives of several? You can say "That would never happen," but we know that errors do occur. Why risk it?

 

[tool66]

First off no snake belongs "in the freezer" just for being different. "THAT may well be the dumbest thing I've ever seen in print!" -Darren I think that tops anything I might type on the thread. Also, why does anybody try and breed a snake w/ a different pattern or trait? To make more money. Sure you may think the snake is beautiful but the next person could think it's ugly. Point is the snake has had no problem killing and eating it's food all of these years. It's not like you have to force feed the snake. The only good point I see being made is the fact that someone may want to breed normal scrubs and come out w/ eyeless, but to say that breeding a snake that will be kept captive by it's owner is a stupid idea is absurd. Ever heard the phrase, beauty is in the eye of the beholder? Wouldn't it be the same if your breeding normal boas and some the the snakes come out albino because that snake carried the gene?

 

[JJFOUTZ]

G.J. McDONALD is obviously not going to come on the BOI and defend himself but this is the reply to the comments on the ad in the boa section. I thought everyone would like to read this and see his point of view. I am in no way agreeing with ANYTHING that he has stated here. I am only posting for others to see his response.

Originally posted by G.J. McDONALD
Again, in the wild this would be a problem. But at 5 years old, I don't see any problem with promoting a new dynamic in the species. If it weren't supposed to happen, it wouldn't. but you seem to think that the snake is withering away and dying. And, oddly enough, I have seen every other snake I own stike into the air or at the glass, but have yet to see this one do it. He eats fine and is easily handled by myself.
So by insinuating that the snake is being mishandled in anyway or being mistreated in anyway or made to have a miserable existence, is an extremely crude assumption. It is assanine to think that this animal should not exist or be researched and studied, because IT DOES EXIST. Like it or not. The "defect" as you refer to, my opinion (and quite a few other extremely experienced herpers).
As to the albino comment, most albinos do not survive in the wild because as juveniles they become easily seen and eaten by natural enemies and predators? So if they have little to no chance to survive in the wild, why breed them? I want to study the animal and see the affects of an eyeless existence. Moral or not, as I said, the animal does exist and in captivity has thrived.
People have continously bred albinos in order to gain clutches with new patterns that have never existed simply to procur more strains and morph patterns to sell.
If what I am doing is to put in a poor context "Playing God"., then so is every other breeder who has bred any animal in order to fascinate "their morbid fascination" at what strain they can then create.
Everyone seems to see this as a bad thing, I see it as the next step in a natural evolution that has come from the natural genetics of the animal. these animals did not come from a labaratory where some evil scientists was splicing genes to produce it. Mother nature created it. So why not study it? You call it a deformity, I call it one of the most beautiful snakes I've seen. Anaturally occuring rarity, created by nature not by me.

I do understand everyones opinion, but believe, I am not money driven. If I were I would have stuck to breeding bloods with my buddy Pete.

If you don't think the animal deserves to live and that it shouldn't be allowed to breed. Go find someone who has blind child and tell them that they shouldn't be allowed to breed because they're eyes are of no use and they carry the gene. The child will learn to live in their surronddings (as has my snake), the child will live a long healthy life (as has my snake) and be seen as a truelly beautiful child (as I do my snake).

I'm sorry if what everyone thinks that this snake is a deformity and should not be bred, but it is opinion. And that is mine.

Thank you all for your responses.
Happy herping.

 

[tool66]

from glen

RETORT
Again, in the wild this would be a problem. But at 5 years old, I don't see any problem with promoting a new dynamic in the species. If it weren't supposed to happen, it wouldn't. but you seem to think that the snake is withering away and dying. And, oddly enough, I have seen every other snake I own stike into the air or at the glass, but have yet to see this one do it. He eats fine and is easily handled by myself.
So by insinuating that the snake is being mishandled in anyway or being mistreated in anyway or made to have a miserable existence, is an extremely crude assumption. It is assanine to think that this animal should not exist or be researched and studied, because IT DOES EXIST. Like it or not. The "defect" as you refer to, my opinion (and quite a few other extremely experienced herpers).
As to the albino comment, most albinos do not survive in the wild because as juveniles they become easily seen and eaten by natural enemies and predators? So if they have little to no chance to survive in the wild, why breed them? I want to study the animal and see the affects of an eyeless existence. Moral or not, as I said, the animal does exist and in captivity has thrived.
People have continously bred albinos in order to gain clutches with new patterns that have never existed simply to procur more strains and morph patterns to sell.
If what I am doing is to put in a poor context "Playing God"., then so is every other breeder who has bred any animal in order to fascinate "their morbid fascination" at what strain they can then create.
Everyone seems to see this as a bad thing, I see it as the next step in a natural evolution that has come from the natural genetics of the animal. these animals did not come from a labaratory where some evil scientists was splicing genes to produce it. Mother nature created it. So why not study it? You call it a deformity, I call it one of the most beautiful snakes I've seen. Anaturally occuring rarity, created by nature not by me.

I do understand everyones opinion, but believe, I am not money driven. If I were I would have stuck to breeding bloods with my buddy Pete.

If you don't think the animal deserves to live and that it shouldn't be allowed to breed. Go find someone who has blind child and tell them that they shouldn't be allowed to breed because they're eyes are of no use and they carry the gene. The child will learn to live in their surronddings (as has my snake), the child will live a long healthy life (as has my snake) and be seen as a truelly beautiful child (as I do my snake).

I'm sorry if what everyone thinks that this snake is a deformity and should not be bred, but it is opinion. And that is mine.

Thank you all for your responses.
Happy herping.

 

[clifford]

Yup, freezer.

Although this is a wasted thread (I find it hard to believe that someone will magically change their current position based on anything that will be posted here), I'll add something too.

I LOVE scrubs. I've only been working with a few animals, and have only had them a few months, but I'm in the process of clearing almost everything else out of my collection in order to have more space and time for them. There is no other group of animals I'd rather be working with.

As a pro-morph, pro-hybrid reptile hobbiest, I like to think I have a fairly open mind-- but this one just makes me feel ill. It's like breeding terriers for massive joint problems. "I GAR-RUN-TEE these dogs will hardly be able to move!!! They'll just sit there and let you pet them all day long, only $2000 each! Perfect for the elderly!"

In conclusion, I also feel a little bad for the guy who posted it, for pulling in the "bad press". I'd certainly be pissed if a bunch of other people started dumping on one of my ads...so I suppose I'm not against him selling the animal at all, I'm just against him posting it as a desirable thing... If I ever hatched out an eyeless animal, it'd be culled as soon as I saw it.

Cliff Miller

 

[clifford]

I'm an ass.

First off no snake belongs "in the freezer" just for being different.

Ask a rancher if he/she culls from his/her herd. Of course they do. The best move on as breeders, and deficient animals are culled. LOTS of things go straight to the block "just for being different".

And also, I know I'm an ass, and I'm sorry in advance...buy why would you choose to use the following expression in this particular thread???

Ever heard the phrase, beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

I sure hope this was a tounge-in-cheek comment because it would be really hard assertion to make if you had no eyes.

 

[bigshow]

I saw this ad as well. I think the guy is dumb. Trying to sound cool. The only way I would think the snake would be "cool" or worth something would be if it was, like a cyclops or something......if the eye was in the exact center of its head. And what's the chances of that happening?! This guy needs to think before he tries posting some retarded animal and tries to make it sound cool.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Everyone seems to see this as a bad thing, I see it as the next step in a natural evolution that has come from the natural genetics of the animal. these animals did not come from a labaratory where some evil scientists was splicing genes to produce it. Mother nature created it. So why not study it? You call it a deformity, I call it one of the most beautiful snakes I've seen. Anaturally occuring rarity, created by nature not by me.

The only difference is that here one is not allowing nature to follow its natural course. Yes, mother nature created the animal and, in the wild, mother nature will more than likely be in charge of destroying it.

Regards.

 

[Darin Chappell]

I think Mr. Hodnett's screenname is especially appropriate, because he is working as a tool for Mr. McDonald here. Three whole posts on this site, and they all happened today on this issue? How special!

Say what you want. There is no scientific value of breeding this animal, and there is no intrinsic value in an animal being eyeless. To suggest otherwise is mere tripe designed to make you feel better about aking a step that does no one any good at all, except for those seeking to profit from the endeavor.

My hope ... This snake has no eyes from a defect brought about through environmental measures instead of genetics. Then, you'll have a bunch of scrub pythons worth no more than any other. It will take you successive generations to determine this for certain, and the cost of keeping the "possible hets" to adulthood will likely eat through your ability to keep them. Unfortunately, it may well be genetic, and we'll only know how much damage you've done when it is far too late to reverse it.

 

[Wilomn]

There is also an interesting thing about python egg incubation that no one has touched on yet.

At one time I had eight or ten large female burmese pythons that I was breeding. I had so many eggs for a couple of years that I took some and incubated them at different temperatures. Other than some pattern aberrancies there were no differences in the babies that were incubated below 88F and those incubated above 88F EXCEPT for one clutch from a female that laid when we didn't think she was gravid at all. It was a small clutch and she curled up around it for a couple, maybe even three weeks or so before we noticed. I have no idea how she went so long without being noticed but she did. At least according to the feeding records I kept back then. When I found the clutch I took it out of the cage she was in. She had not laid them under a heat light, they were on the cool end of the tank, probably between 80 and 84 degrees. I put the eggs in an incubator at 90F and the all hatched. ONE of them had one eye. It was on the top of the clutch and was most likely cooler than the other eggs while it was in the cage with the mother. Such is my speculation at any rate.

I did breed this female two more times and NEVER got another one eyed hatchling from her. I used the same male all three times.

So it may be that this snakes deformity is not genetic at all. My guess is, that missing both eyes, it IS genetic, but maybe not.

It's still a rough call. While there is most likely not as much inbreeding with the scrub pythons as there is in the albino boas, genetic malformation cannot be ruled out.


Does a beautiful pattern or color make it worthwhile to breed this individual? I'm glad I don't have to make that decision. Short of keeping all the offspring and breeding them back to eachother for several generations there really is no way to know if this was accidental or genetic in origin.

 

[tool66]

Are we talking about the eyeless scrub in this thread or are we concentrating on bad mouthing people that quote phrases in their posts. As far as my user name being tool66, that has to do with the bad tool but I wouldn't expect "hillbilly herpers" to understand what that is all about. And about the eye of the beholder, that refers to the owner, but I'm sure with your 3rd grade education you already knew that. I don't care if I look cool to you people. I have never met you and don't really care to. The only reason glen hasn't posted on the website himself is because there is something wrong with his computer server and cannot access the thread. but here, he is typing this next part himself:

Darin,

Everyone else has been relatively calm and quaint in regards to their posts, even when disagreeing. While I'm sure you do have a great deal of knowledge on herps and all surrounding areas, I think that to say that this animal cannot be liked or loved by anyone else is simple-minded. If it wasn't supposed to be here, it wouldn't be. If it isn't supposed to exist, then it wouldn't. and if it isn't supposed to be, then nature will eradicate them on her own. And seeings how it has taken millions of years for evolution to get these animals to where they are presently i think that the "irreversible damage to the entire species" is about the most truelly ignorant thing I have ever heard come from a person. Polluting the entire species? Are you serious? Please tell me you have more sense than that.

As i said, everyone else had been, while in total disagreement, somewhat cordial. You have been a complet jerk from the very beginning.
Simply stated, if you don't want one, don't breed it yourself, don't try and sell them and don't have anything to do with them. that is the great thing about america, we have the freedom of choice. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

I don't plan on coming back to the site today, because I'm at work. I will leave you with this.

the last time someone decided that a "species" they thought had no use or value to anyone else and would simply pollute the rest of the earth and pollute all the pure of the species, they killed a millions of them. so go on and think that this species have no use and that they are worthless.
then go move to germany because you sound just like a nazi.
thanks to everyone else for their response and time.
take it easy.

 

[Darin Chappell]

I cannot express how glad I am that this is recorded on the BOI under this guy's name. Now, whenever somone does a search on him to see what type of a person he is, he will be recognized for what he is.

As for me being a jerk, I am from time to time, I have to admit. But I did not personally attack anyone here as you two have now done to me. Nevertheless, I do think that both of you are fooling only yourselves, if you honestly cannot understand how breeding animals that may be carrying a gene that causes deformity would be a terribly BAD idea! To purposefully try to replicate a deformity that ought to be culled from the breeding population of a species, and then sell the animals that will result of your little "project" to an unsuspecting public, only to have eyeless animals reemerge in subsequent generations is unethical. Anyone with any common sense at all can comprehend that ... then there's those whose greed has taken over from their common sense.

Do you really want to say that because it is here, it is "supposed to be?" One supposes then that such a fatalistic approach on things forbids you from having any moral judgments on even the most heinous of situations. Are multigenerational inbred animals a morally acceptable "product" to offer to the unsuspecting, even though they are fatally flawed in some way? Sure! They must be destined to be here, or else they never would have been! It's evolutionary, don't ya know?!?!?

You all feel good about this? Fine. Be unethical. Someday this may come back on you two, and I'll just be sitting back, smiling in my jerk-like fashion.

Oh, by the way ... equating the commonsensical approach of wanting to cull deformed animals with the genocide attempted by the Nazis of WWII is not only a horrible thing to say to me as a person, it is also a slap at the 6,000,000 PEOPLE who were murdered, by comparing them to 1 SNAKE!!! Good going Mr. McDonald! I didn't believe I could think less of your attitudes. You sure proved me wrong, though!

 

[tool66]

You did personally attack me when you typed my actual name in the post and by saying that my quotes were dumb or stupid. The only reason he posted the snake on the website was to find out more about it. He wanted to know what it was worth or if someone else out there had the same snake. There aren't any websites about the eyeless scrub and this was the only way he knew to find out. He never actually planned on breeding it. He was more interested in possibly selling it. That's what we post ads on the website for right? My last post was in defensive to your previous post. So the question being, if he wasn't planning on breeding the snake, would anyone be interested in buying the snake as a personal pet and if so how much? He has nothing to compare something like this to. It's like the two headed ball pythons you see on the internet. Someone may think it is cool and pay a lot of money for it just to say they have a two headed python.

 

[clifford]

And about the eye of the beholder, that refers to the owner, but I'm sure with your 3rd grade education you already knew that.

Um, right. That's why I said it would be a hard assertion to make if you had no eyes. Get it now? If the owner...had no eyes...you couldn't see the beauty...nothing to behold?

What I was trying to get across is that a snake not having eyes is a defect, much like a person not having eyes would be a defect. Hopefully now we're on the same page.

Musta been my third grade education getting in the way of our conversation. I'll try to keep it on a mutual level next time.

Seriously though, I didn't post to fight, just to try to add something... And for the record, I read on another forum that the snake in question is probably a patternless southern scrub, which are actually quite gorgeous. Yasser @ Spitfire Reptiles owns at least one, and pictures of it can be seen on his site or at scrubpythons.com in the gallery. It's a real shame about the flaw on this particular animal (if in fact you consider it a flaw, which I do...but to each thier own).

Cliff Miller