Glendon McDonald Poor Ethics?

[Darin Chappell]

"He never actually planned on breeding it."


Oh, really??? Mr. McDonald wrote (posted in order of their appearances):


"I've also spoke with several other people who are interested in purchasing one should I breed it and be able to promote and produce juveniles carrying the same trait and gene that creates the mutation."

"People have continously bred albinos in order to gain clutches with new patterns that have never existed simply to procur more strains and morph patterns to sell.
If what I am doing is to put in a poor context "Playing God"., then so is every other breeder who has bred any animal in order to fascinate "their morbid fascination" at what strain they can then create.
Everyone seems to see this as a bad thing, I see it as the next step in a natural evolution that has come from the natural genetics of the animal."

"I'm sorry if what everyone thinks that this snake is a deformity and should not be bred, but it is opinion. And that is mine."

Sure sounds like he's just looking to price it as a pet and not trying to hype it as a breeder, doesn't it? Yeah right!

I've beat my head against this wall long enough ... you guys do whatever you want. We'll remember who to blame when the eyeless scrubs begin showing up in a few years.

 

[Gromph Baenre]

Darin,
Anyone with a post elementary education and an introduction to biology could follow your line of reasoning in the statements you have made.

Mr. McDonald
For example, if a car is found to be defective, a recall is issued and the offending problem is alleviated. However, if the problem is beyond economical repair, the manufacturer is forced to refund monies to the consumer and remove the hazard from the general public, lest the land walking sharks would surely feed on such a misfortune.
Alavro made a most excellent post in stating that mother nature would have most likely eliminated this defect from the gene pool, however, this defective animal, is now within the realm of man. Mother Nature, for all practical purposes, has been removed from the equation.
Mr. McDonald, your futile attempt at comparing Mr. Davenport to the jack booted, nazi government is one of the most beligurent attempts at character assassination I have ever seen. I regret that you and your associate lack the ability to take constructive criticism, but I believe you owe Mr. Davenport an apology. His approach is based in reality and not within a purposed profit margin.
I am sure the animal in question would make an excellent pet, and its life does have a value. But a realist approach demands that one remove it from the gene pool. I can not cause any good only harm. Harm to the genetics and harm to your fine name if it were ever traced back to you as being the seller.
Personally, I applaud your efforts of housing such a misfortunate creature. I commend you on your dedication to the animal. I would also encourage you to maintain that dedication and keep the animal within your domain, why entrust such a different creature to just anyone...especially the highest bidder.
All of the above is just my opinion and doesn't amount to a hill of beans. But you know us hillbillies just don't like it when people make fun of our fellow hillbillies, second cousins twice removed or any other stereotype folks may think up about us.

Best regards,

Carson Grindstaff

 

[tool66]

Let me rephrase, he originally didn't plan on breeding the snake. If he did breed the snake chances are you may get one or two eyeless snakes, if any. But the fact that it is patternless might make the snake worth breeding. From what I've read up on there aren't that many patternless scrubs. I may be wrong though. As far as the trash talk, the only reason I said something about the hill billy name was because my name was attacked first. Things got a little out of hand with the 3rd grade education statement. I can see the pun intended in that post. For that I can apologize. Glen speaks for himself and you can take his comments up with him if you wish.

 

[tool66]

This is a post message from glen since his computer isn't letting him post for whatever reason:

To Darin, my apologize for the Nazi remark. that was an extremely harsh remark to make and I apologize for it. I don't think that any jewish people would have been offended by it. after your last post i called the best man in my wedding Mayc Livitz (of obvious jewish descent) and he laughed his ass off. So i don't think anyone was truelly offended by it, if so, again, my sincerest apologies. I don't agree with, personally, and unfortunatle, several people have aproached me regarding the possibility of purchasing one. believe me or not if you wish, i don't really care. not meaning to be cruel because by the same token, i don't think you care about my views either. i just don't really take much stock in your opinion. as i said, all the research i've done has shown that the patternless australian is one of the most highly valued of the scrubs. so by breeding i can indeed make quite a bit of money off of a pattern that does seem to be desired. as far as they eyeless gene, as my friend tool66 has pointed out, the chances of the genetic strand lining up and producing the anomonaly are very small. but should it, i will sale them and hopefully those will have the same sucess in captivity as mine has. when breeding any animal, you must worry for it's well being and handling. regardless of the species. (i.e dogs, cats, horses etc..) but to call these animals "deformed" is what i cannot understand. where is the deformity? in the wild, of course, these animals probably would be wiped out naturally, but as stated, man has interfered. in retort to that though...a great deal many species of animal would never exist and their morphs not be available for us to enjoy (albinos) and these are animals who, in the wild, would probably not survive either. originally, it was merely an idea to breed the animal. never definitive. their is still a great many variables i must consider before it could become anywhere near a reality.
and yes darin, if eyeless scrubs do begin showing up in the next few years, by all means, blame me.
again, your opinion means nothing to me and like my mother always told me i'm going to do what i want regardless of what you say.

Mr. Grindstaff,

as far as the hillbilly remark made by my friend, i thought that was funny due to my point of origin (born in south alabam and raised in south louisiana), perversion of a genetic strand is done every day by anyway who interbreeds any 2 species to create another one. you say the animal is helpless, i say it is not. it has adjusted to it's environment as well as any of the numerous snakes i have seen and does no more harm to itself by striking glass, missing food and trying to find the first escape route by nosing around the lids.
but the only persons opinion i would truelly take into consideration regarding the subject, would be someone who has actually owned, fed, raised, study and resolved to find out as much about this , as everyone has so delicatley put it "deformity", animal.
and again, all day long between things escalating far out of hand, i have yet to hear from anyone else who has.
so point in case, as far as i know, i'm the only person who has spoken today who has hands on experience with one. so i will take what i know, not with what i think or feel, but what i know from owing and dealing with the animal.
but at least you have spoken like a gentleman, and have shown respect, so i do appreciate that, and take your opinion in the highest of regards. thank you.
good day to all.

 

[Sasheena]

Tool66 Says:

Let me rephrase, he originally didn't plan on breeding the snake. If he did breed the snake chances are you may get one or two eyeless snakes, if any.

So he breeds this snake to 3 snakes... they all have 6 eggs, so there are 18 offspring.... all with TWO eyes. He sells 14 of those to the public (all HET for no-eyes).... then he breeds the hets he kept together, and gets 20 babies, 5 of them eyeless... the remaining 15 also 66% possible het for eyeless.... sells those... so now somebody has descendants of this snake... they get eyeless, deformed snakes they must cull.

You just DON"T GET IT... that by perpetuating this snake, you perpetuate a deleterious gene, and weaken the population. Is this an Aussie python? With NO new additions to the gene pool, that's like saying: "I'd sure love to corrupt all scrub pythons not left in Australia." Eventually, there will be no scrub pythons for anyone to have.

 

[Seamus Haley]

[sarcasm] Yeah Darin, what would a boa breeder like yourself know about eye deformities cropping up in association with a particular color/pattern related genotype and how they can infect entire populations? Clearly these two are far more experienced with such matters than you will ever be! [/sarcasm]

When I began this thread it was in the nature of a kind of incredulous inquiry... I couldn't believe anyone would be so ignorant and blind to the moral issues that they would *really* be marking up deformed animals or suggesting their use in breeding projects. I figured Mr. McDonald would see the results of the Poll (which are as I predicted they would be when I started the thread... wonder who the one person is that chose the first option. Give you two guesses) and change his stance but apparantly in the face of overwhelming criticism, he feels it's best to continue along a negative path.

My initial thought was either... poor wording or an inexperienced keeper, which I why I questioned the specific situation rather than the man himself... After reading his responses, I'm now confident that he is a true unethical bad guy. I doubt I'm alone in this either.

Congratulations Mr. McDonald, you have convinced at least thirty-odd people that you have poor practices and probably ensured that they will never enter into an animal related transaction with you... And the thread has only been up for a few hours.

Chances are that this deformity is formative rather than genetic but nobody in their right mind would take that risk OR try to utilize it as a hot selling point. It's like selling "New and Improved Tailless Day Geckos!" or "Now avaliable, non-feeding, emaciated mountain kingsnakes, get them while they last, they won't be here long!" (The arthritic dog example was an excellent one as well). The levels to which some people will stoop never ceases to amaze me. Doesn't impress me, but it does amaze me.

 

[Wilomn]

Ok, now let me get this straight because I just noticed something.

This IS NOT the only patternless scrub python out there. It is posted by both of these guys that THEY are one of the prettiest and most desirable of the traits presently available in scrub pythons. Is this true? There are other, TWO EYED, individuals which also posess this patternless trait?

If this is true and you are using this DEFORMED, and that is what it is if it is NOT formed correctly, snake as a breeder then you are INDEED a bad guy. Not only a bad guy, but a CHEAP bad guy.

If you want to breed patternless scrubs and there are PERFECT examples of this trait out there and they "WILL MAKE YOU LOTS OF MONEY" then pony up and buy a good one and keep the other one, in his VIRGINAL state, as a pet.

The right way and the wrong way are now staring you right in the face. You KNOW which is which, now you have to decide what YOU want to be known as.

 

[tool66]

I would appreciate it if you would not include me when criticizing glen's remarks. Never once did I say that I am an "experienced" breeder.
"Clearly these two are far more experienced with such matters than you will ever be! [/sarcasm]"

I have only owned snakes for about 2 years. If everyone is right then there won't be a chance to breed one normal snake in a few years. How do you know there isn't another one out there that has been breed already. You could be breeding a boa w/ an eyeless gene and not even know it. That's the chance you take when you breed snakes. Am I wrong? But I'm not an expert and I'm certainly not breeding snakes. I have enough trouble handling the ones I have!

 

[clifford]

scrub prices...

As mentioned by others, there are other patternless southern scrubs out there (as well as patternless nauta, clastolepis, and others)... Secondly, as far as I can see there's no overwhelming financial side to this argument... The market for scrubs is 95% with diehard fans, and very few of them that I've spoken with are into the whole morph craze...none that I'm aware of would be interested in an animal with this type of abnormality. Even the very-rarely (in the past) imported Halamhera's showing up on ks.com are dropping in price. (because all of us that are dying to buy them at thier current price, just can't afford what they're worth)

Lets face it guys, a 10+ foot highly arboreal python isn't for everyone. People that are huge into ball pythons (and the other morph happy species) generally aren't into things that can perch _anywhere_ and have a strike range longer than you are tall.

To answer Sasheena's question (if noone else has, I only skimmed some of the replies) southerns aren't from mainland AU, and are still regularly imported. WC's generally wholesale for less than $75.

I doubt the gene pool at large is facing much risk in this, but I will say if I worked to raise a normal looking hatchling, paired it with an unrelated animal, and produced hatchlings that popped out with no eyes I'd be devistated. Years of raising the animals, a whole breeding season's pairings, prefectly incubating the eggs...and then ending up with that. A clutch full of deformities. Would you even bother to keep the adult animals involved? How many years would it take to figure out which of the animals was causing the problem? What a horrible waste of time, luck (to get eggs/hatchlings at all), and resources...all for nothing.

I'm not saying there's not a market for scrubs...as previously mentioned I'm selling off most everything else I have just to buy more...so obviously I'm willing to pay for them... Just...what a mess. I can hardly believe this is even a topic of conversation.


Cliff Miller

 

[The BoidSmith]

If he did breed the snake chances are you may get one or two eyeless snakes, if any. But the fact that it is patternless might make the snake worth breeding.

In my opinion that's where the real danger lies, getting just on or two eyeless pythons out of a clutch. That means the rest of the clutch is going to be sold as healthy, flawless individuals when in reality they are more than likely carriers of the genetic defect. Chances are that due to the limited number available, an unsuspecting buyer will bay a pair of siblings, further compounding the problem.

 

[PAUL BOLLINGER]

This is my point of view. It addresses this mind-set.



You won't hear me B!tch too often, but this is an issue that seriously haunts me when I think about the future of our hobby. A good many of you may take this as a personal attack, but please keep in mind that we pave the way for the up-and-coming the same way that it was paved for us. I'm not attacking anyone.

I think that there are two well defined components to the "Herp Hobby" ONE: The captive care and maintenance and propagation of reptiles and amphibians. This component in my opinion is the one that demands the most responsibility and TWO: The field. Catching and releasing or retaining specimens for research or for an addition to the captive collection, including photography and field notes. I love keeping, maintaining and even breeding reptiles, But hunting snakes in the wild is my absolute passion.

I think our hobby is moving at a dangerously fast pace. Especially when your talking about N. American species. The common Corn Snake Pantherophis g. guttatus (or whatever they're calling it this week) Is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I'm not going to sit here and play holier than thou. I've owned several different corn morphs in the past and my real beef isn't with the morphs as much as it is with the irresponsible and constant mixing of genes. These "morphs" are being caught in the wild now. Irresponsibility through improper documentation and reckless husbandry/Breeding practices are my main complaint IRT Morphs but... I KNOW that hybridizing and inbreeding will eventually poison our wild populations. This is an inevitable fact.

I see breeders who initially came out preaching against hybridizing are the same breeders who are in a "Rat Race" for the newest hybrid. The bottom line is THERE IS NO REASON TO CROSS A CORN SNAKE TO A KING SNAKE! THERE IS NO REASON TO BREED A CORN SNAKE TO PINE/GOPHER/BULL SNAKE! you shouldn't do it just because you can. Why do we need to cross breed everything? I can't answer that but, I refuse to be a part of it. We've turned a blind eye to hybridizing and morph making for a turn of profit. A vendor at one of our local shows told me that I need to get with the times. Hybridizing snakes is the future of our hobby. Well my friends, I do not accept this BullSh!t answer.

My favorite snake is the Southern Hognose. I was approached by a gentleman at the Daytona show that wanted to buy an adult specimen from me to cross with a Western hognose. I bluntly told him that I would never sell him one of my animals. I'd rather let it go than to be that much a part of his intentions. Why aren't we content with what we've been given? If for some reason (And it would NEVER happen) I had two different species of snakes breed in my captive theater I would euthanize everyone of the offspring. If not, I've just muddied the waters. These animals will continually be bred to other specimens and the bloodline is ever changed. Before you know it you'll go out to your favorite albino Jungle corn hunting spot. The day that hybrids and morphs are a common place on the wild is the day that we have failed mother nature.

This really scares me.............


The same applies to the "Eyeless Specimen"

Paul Bollinger

 

[DThomas]

Cory,

What is your relationship to Glen?

You said at 2pm Glen was having computer problems and could not post for himself. Yet you both were posting within minutes of each other this morning on the ad, from the same computer. You used that same computer to inform everyone Glen could not post and post your other responses on the BOI. Why couldn't Glen just use the same computer you and he had been using this morning and you the rest of the day to post?

By the way, I have locked the ad to prevent it's deletion.

 

[Gary O]

I did not read the whole thread yet.(I know lazy lol) But WTF is this? A eyeless being called a morph and him hoping to prove it out? This is sad! I guess some will do anything for a buck huh?

 

[Palustris]

To lazy to read the other posts, but from the ad..

The snake is extremely healthy and beaituiful and an EXTREMELY good eater (2-3 small rabbits).

You had this animal for a little less than a week and a half. Are you stating that one feeding assumes the animal is and extremely good eater?
How much did Mat sell you this animal, 50 bucks was it? That's what I was gonna get it for, but you beat me to the punchline, Rachel didnt even have time to get a photo of it for me.
Was it your intentions to buy it then sell it before you had any actual time to determine the animal is healthy and a good eater? By the way, I was told the animal can be quite a handle..

"If you thought that your children and grandchildren and generation after generation of your passed on genes would produce eyeless people (Your family), would you breed?" -Fouts

"If you thought that your children and grandchildren and generation after generation of your passed on genes would produce Albinos, hypos, Creamcicle people (Your family), would you breed?"

Just thought it went hand in hand..
Zane Neher

 

[Lucille]

Corey: Dennis Thomas said that you and Glen are using the same computer. Your sign-on says that you are from San Antonio. Possibly, y'all are the same person?
A challenge:
Everyone, at some time or other, has a moment of bad judgment. Some of them involve snakes ( Just look at Adam and Eve and the serpent in the Garden of Eden). You (and Glen) have posted yourselves into a corner; between y'all's responses to the ad and your posts on this thread, y'all are not held in very high esteem right now.
I don't think there is an easy way out of this, but I do have a suggestion: reconsider, after reading all of the posts. Don't breed or sell this animal. I challenge you to put him in the freezer and after he has gone to snake heaven, have someone from the board confirm he is indeed dead. I am down the road from you, you can ship him froze and I will take a pic and confirm here that he is indeed departed.
It would be a start back for both of you to regain your reputation. As I said, we all make mistakes, but only some of us are smart enough to make amends.
What do you say?

 

[Palustris]

I challenge you to put him in the freezer and after he has gone to snake heaven, have someone from the board confirm he is indeed dead. I am down the road from you, you can ship him froze and I will take a pic and confirm here that he is indeed departed.
It would be a start back for both of you to regain your reputation. As I said, we all make mistakes, but only some of us are smart enough to make amends.

Ok, talk about being ignorant. There is absolutely no possible reason for the snake to be destroyed. The snake is blind, woop-ti-doo. It's nonetheless still an animal. And, personally, you are no better than the person we are questioning.. Why would anyone comment such as thing? How would this manage their reputation? And how in the world would that make someone smart? Nothing is wrong with the snake, nothing worth while to put it down. Simply keep it for the animal for what it is and not trying to make a lame excuse for a 'new thing' would strengthen his reputation.
One would think, anyway.. Talk about ethics..
Zane Neher

 

[Lucille]

Zane, the snake has been put up for sale. While I agree that one may keep handicapped animals as pets, this did not seem to be the intention here. Now there is this eyeless animal that Glen is trying to put back into circulation.
No one would have said anything, had the snake not been advertised, but only kept as a private pet.
As for me being no better than Glen, you are entitled to your opinion of course.

 

[Palustris]

Indeed. However, if he were just selling the snake I wouldn't object to it. I was going to purchase the animal myself. But, his selling points are outright lies being he has barely had the snake long enough to be bitten. Even so, there would still be no reason to euthanize this animal. His intentions shouldn't alter the animals life, why not just challenge him into giving the animal away, or sell it once again for the price he got for it.
I think the main objection was the motive and methods of his selling pitch, not that the animal was simply put up forsale.
This is the impression I got when I informed the animal was being sold. (Though, I have no motivation to read the wqhole thread)
If not, that is my only objection.
Zane Neher

 

[tool66]

Glen and I aren't the same person. We work together. I have nothing to do with him breeding a snake or calling it a morph or whatever. I just said the snake is healthy. I have my own snakes to worry about. What he does with his snakes is his business. He couldn't post from his computer for whatever reason so I let him post from mine. You can direct your statements and inquiries to him. Secondly I really don't care if I am held in high regard or not. I'm not into breeding snakes and I'm certainly not trying to create some kind of morph pattern or anything like that. I think my snakes are beautiful the way they are. As long as I have someone that holds me in high enough regard to sell me food for my snakes then I don't care. This is glen's snake. The only reason I defended him was because he is my friend and some people weren't giving constructive criticism, they were being rude. It's one thing to have passion about a subject, but it's another thing to say some of the things that were said (not mentioning any names) and expect it not to get kind of personal. But, I'm not anybody's daddy so as I stated before, if you could direct any opinions to glen breeding his snake to him I would appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[Seamus Haley]

If you're a close enough friend to have that sort of contact/communication, would you care to confirm or deny Zane's statements with regards to the origin of the animal?

I trust him a great deal and know him to be an honest individual, even if we disagree about the euthanization of deformed specimins... He has it on good authority that this animal was obtained no more than three or four days ago from a dealer in Texas and that the price he was offered on the animal was fifty dollars. Is this true or not?

If it is... then how can Glenn claim the animal is healthy, docile, a good feeder and not experiencing any difficulties with it's obvious handicap? It may or may not be true but having the animal for such a short period of time, he's in no position to make such statements.

If it's a different animal, would you please ask Glenn to supply us with detailed information about the animal's origin? Where he obtained it, when and under what circumstances? Because one eyeless animal is probably an incubation mishap, TWO eyeless animals is a lot more likely to have a genetic cause and makes this situation far more important than it was yesterday with the information which was avaliable. And Glenn's behavior even more reprehensible.