Glendon McDonald Poor Ethics?

[sputnik]

The longer it goes the worse it gets!

I have read everyone of the posts on this subject. I think many of you should be ashamed of yourselves. This topic has brought out all that is bad in human nature and little of what is good.

There are a few shamefull posts on this thread were personal comments/attacks should not of been made. This topic came about because of Glen making the inquiry about possibly breeding this animal.

This, if you look at the poll, this is what has most people up in arms about. At the time of writing this post 92% of people are concerned that it might be used as a breeder. It is just plain wrong in my opinion to even consider breeding it.

The poll is contributed to by Herpers and potential custormers.

If the animal is to be kept as a pet only. Then I don't have a problem, but breeding it is a problem!

This kill first ask questions later mentality worries me.

I agree, that is a worry, but the breed it first and see what happens for monetary value is what horrifies me because it would be bred for $$$ reasons.

I can only hope this remains a pet and nothing more! I also hope this remains some what civil.

 

[PetStuff]

new opinion poll

Here are some possible changes to an obviously one sided opinion poll.

o There is no possible way a blind animal can have any positive
value

o Any animal we at BOI decide to be contrary to the norm should
be destroyed, humanely of course.

o If the eyeless snake is used as O. hannah food does this
constitute a positive value

o Stevie Wonder, why wasn't this man culled at birth.

 

[PetStuff]

money for misfits

I see a recuring theme in the posts. This theme is that there should be no profit in the traffic of animals deemed abnormal.
I own a pet store and you would be surprised at the number of people who are shocked that someone would pay money for a snake. People find it disgusting that I profit from the sale of rodents to snake owners for food.
We are all members of an abnormal hobby. The driving force in the hobby is abnormality. Try showing up in Daytona with a table full of normal corns, regular berms, brown bearded dragons, and a generic ball python. The guy with the two headed corns and red ears, piebald balls, Sandfire dragons, albino pastel retics, and Tremper Leopards will draw the crowd.
As distasteful as it may seem sometimes, we live in a free market society. We have little control of the value of anything we sell. All things have a value to someone. That value is controlled by demand. If nobody wants it the value is low. If everyone wants it the bidding begins. How high depends on the players. Look at Piebald balls. High demand+big players equals expensive animals.
We cannot escape the system. If eyeless snakes are truly desirable the price will be high. If not, then O. hannah food.
Everybody deserves a shot at the game. We all think we have a better mousetrap. The market will decide. We will learn more about ourselves as hobbiests by letting market remove bad ideas.
When you stand on a pedestal and point at someone elses attempt to profit, someone with a taller pedestal will point at you.
We are all sinners. Breeding animals from different localities screwing up local boundaries putting animals together that couldn't ever meet in the wild. Crossbreeding, "purifing strains", breeding for color, pattern, scaleless, eyeless, size or head shape, breeding lizard and frog eaters into pinkie eaters.
Let the system work. Before you judge, prepare to be judged.

 

[Wilomn]

Re: kill first ask questions later

The reptile hobby is driven by abnormalities. Animals that could not and would not ever exist in the wild are the mainstay of the hobby. Sunglow Boas, Paradox Albino, Snow, Ghost, Patternlesstangerinejunglealbinodoublehetforghost X Gianthetforbigeyespiderblackback.
and everybody wants to make a buck. Lets be civil.

Matt

OK, once again for matt, the guy who claimed to have read every post on this thread.

A color morph IS NOT a physical DEFORMITY. While a color morph may have detrimental effect on the snake exhibiting that color morph should it be living in the wild it is still NOT a physical handicap.

No eyes IS NOT a pyhsical deformity. Should a snake with NO eyes, representing a species in which the NORM is to have two eyes present, be living in the wild, it is STILL a physical deformity.

There is a BIG difference between color morphs and physical deformities.

Most albinos or other brightly colored snakes won't make it long in the wild. However, how many different species have had ADULT WILD CAUGHT specimens collected that were AMELANISTIC? Rosies, kings, gophers, just here in Ca. I believe there were other species of kings in Fla. and several species of garter and water and ribbon snakes. How many of those species have had NO EYED individuals collected at all much less of adult size?

Are you beginning to see the difference between a morph and a physical deformity here matt?

What EXACTLY would you study with this snake and how EXACTLY would you go about that study? Would there be a control group? Would you postulate a theory or hypothesis or just throw in chickens and rats and rabbits and see if he could get them on the first strike or successive strikes? Would you put him in the sun to see if he could find the shade or the shade to see if he could find the sun? Just how would you go about studying this snake and his condition?

Wasn't Stevie Wonder born sighted and put in an incubator with excessively high oxygen levels that caused his blindness?

And I'm pretty sure there is a slight difference between a scrub python and a human being. That's not to say that a little culling would not strengthen the species we belong to, not at all, but I think you are starting another discussion entirely.

I don't think a couple of guys that like scrubs are the ones to be running scientific studies on this snake and his DEFORMITY. In all truth I don't think they have any idea what it would entail to undertake such a study not where to go with it once it started.

If you want to breed it for profit then say you're breeding it for profit. This scientific study stuff has sounded like so much hogwash from the very beginning and is a large part ofthe reason for my participation in this thread.

 

[Wilomn]

Matt, it's BURMESE or BURM, not BERMESE or BERM

 

[Palustris]

A color morph IS NOT a physical DEFORMITY. While a color morph may have detrimental effect on the snake exhibiting that color morph should it be living in the wild it is still NOT a physical handicap.

Thing is, it is. It's not truly natural; If it were, there would be more than one or two here and there, and being it's not truly natural, a genetic fumble, it would be a deformity. And, a morph being a color scheme mishap which is dealing with the body of the animal, it's physical. Physical deformity.
There is, however, a difference in a color morph and a color variation. Also, n animal that is easily spotted in it's habitat would be a handicap.

In which case, it really doesn't matter.
The python is in captivity, being kept as a captive and will be nothing but a captive. Just because morphs are more commonly found in the wild than the other, means absolutely nothing, except maybe, they have a better chance of survival. Either way, it's still abnormal. It's obvious the snake is thriving, death shouldn't even be an option. Questioning all of this really has nothing to do with anything; Comparing it to wild populations is silly. If the guy wants to study the animal, let him, who are we to question his ability?
I honestly don't even see why this thread is as long as it is, it's all repetitive and nonsense.
..Hopefully this all made sense, just had to clarify some things before another 10 pages were put up before I woke up.
And, curse you Matt for selling it so fast.
Zane Neher

 

[The BoidSmith]

If this snake has hightened senses due to the lack of eyes it could easily detect the cooler shade and water, if it was diurnal it would have great nocturnal advantages. If it was nocturnal hightened senses would give it a nocturnal advantage. Increased sensitivity to touch could shorten it's reaction time. It could develope a stronger defense, or a more powerful offense. It would be more sensitive to vibration, a fine tuned jacobsons. This snake could live in caves, eat bats.

Matthew,

During the course of evolution probably thousands of eyeless snakes have been born. If they have better chances to survive as stated, why aren't there populations of blind snakes established and thriving around? Simple, survival of the fitest.

Maybe eyesight is one of the less used senses for a python to be able to capture prey in the wild. Pythons can still detect smell and heat on their preys. These last to senses are of little use though when it comes to avoid predators, the animal relying mostly on eyesight and detection of ground vibrations.

Regards.

 

[E2MacPets]

I wonder how an eyeless snake would respond to being introduced to a cold blooded mate.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Steven,

In my opinion and experience based on ball pythons and other snakes, smell would play by far a more important role in breeding.

Regards.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I'm going to respond to a number of posts at once, some with quotes some without as a few people have raised identical points.

First... as to the contention that eyelessness might be an evolutionary advancement in an arboreal ambush predator... Those who are offering this position as even a possibility need to go back and re-take fifth grade biology because it's absolutely absurd.

Second... as to the contention that it's a neutral trait which doesn't affect the quality of life the animal reccieves... Kind of up in the air isn't it? Can you prove it's not in constant pain? In reading this thread I will personally guarantee that I've got a better grasp of reptile biology than Glenn and Matt (with his berms) and I sure as heck can't tell what a snake is feeling all the time. Extreme situations, sure the body positioning and behavior changes but minor or ongoing pain? There's absolutely no way to tell.

Third... Stop saying this animal has scientific value. Like Wes said, none of the people making that claim have the slightest idea what they're talking about... You want to study the snake and prove anything? Explain exactly what you plan on doing then, I'd love to hear about your control groups and variables.

Fourth... I didn't realize when I wrote my initial post here or asked my questions on the ad that the snake had come from Matt... Based on the way Glenn was making these absolute statements about it's health, well being and behavior I assumed it had been in his posession for awhile. Come to find out that it hasn't. He then says that he trusts Matt's judgement on such matters and then we come to find out that Matt didn't have it long enough to verify any of this either. And since Matt has made several contentions which are dependant on the quality of his knowledge if he wants to have them carry any weight... Matt, didn't you have your employees freehandling Atractaspididae because you didn't know what they were? I know I wouldn't trust a guy who encourages his underaged employees to freehandle venomous snakes of clinical signifigance any further than I could throw him.

Fifth... A major source of the conflict seems to be inherent in the nuance of how best to remove this animal from the gene pool. Some people favor terminal culling, others favor a less final approach. There are threads which exist already in some of the discussion forums dealing with exactly that, I think Clay Davenport started the last one if I remember correctly, although there was one about leopard geckos not too long ago either. Discuss it there, there are a lot of excellent posts on all sides of the issue. I'd also suggest the thread in either the boa discussion forum or the general business discussion forum about the eye deformities in albino boas, it'll detail why such matters need to be treated with concern.

Sixth... There is no BOI clique. I will sometimes send a link to a thread to people who I know personally or speak to frequently online but I do not influence how they post or what they write in any real manner. Heck, this thread here the only people who have posted that I believe I directly informed were Zane (who disagrees with me about terminal culling) and Rachel (who just disagrees with me). Anyone who happens to be on any "side" in this matter simply agrees with the points which were made.

Seventh... Yes, I am making a character judgement based on the actions taken and the attitude displayed by Glenn. I feel that his actions in attempting to market a physical deformity as a positive trait as well as his later comments about breeding the animal are inappropriate and they influenced my opinion of him. Clearly they have influenced others as well... The BOI deals with both facts and opinions, the facts about the animal and the way he chose to market it were made avaliable. The opinions about his choices are avaliable as well. Anyone reading the thread can form their own opinion based on what they personally agree or disagree with. I say his actions make him a bad guy, others may agree or not- it's up to them.

Eighth... The poll is not heavily biased. The first and fourth options are somewhat extreme, the second and third are moderate. In retrospect I wish I had added another option in the middle which seperated the ideas of breeding and selling, something along the lines of "There's nothing wrong with selling a deformed animal, there is something wrong with breeding it or encouraging the trait." but at this point if I asked the moderators to edit the poll it would taint it because the pool of individuals who have already participated is too large.

Ninth... Comparing a blind snake to a blind human is inappropriate. Stop it please, it just makes you look a bit slow. Comparing the idea of culling deformed animals to the Nazi's attempts at genocide is just an insult to everyone who was unfortunately thrust into the center of one of the greatest human tradgedies of all time. Furthermore the majority of the BOI's active posters and lurkers aren't going to be swayed by sensationalistic attacks of this nature. This issue surrounds one man's choice in marketing and the ramifications his actions have, both as theoreticals with regards to potential offspring and concretes where his reputation is concerned.

Tenth... Thanks for putting this back on the BOI Rich, it's a muddy subject in some respects but I think it belongs here.

 

[Sasheena]

Seamus is right, there IS no clicque here on the BOI. I've rabidly disagreed with him (but probably not actually posted it) on numerous occasions... however I've admired his ability to share his opinion without complete shortsightedness. When I agree, I say so, if it has relevance.

I think one thing that people who say "what is this going to do to my reputation?" don't realize is that there are a LOT of people who READ the threads and are swayed by them that don't necessarily post their opinions.

My opinion on the eyeless snake is that it should not be bred. PERIOD. Should it be frozen? No, I think that is not necessary. But it should be kept in a manner where it would not be possible to EVER be bred. Kept as a pet, fine.

I especially liked Seamus' third point. I, too, would love to hear the hypothesis which this snake might be able to prove... give me an idea of the actual scientific experimental design. That was my specialty when I got my degree in statistics. Hubby has an advanced degree in genetics. We would love to hear about your proposed experiment, know what pertinent and valid question it will answer, and how you would go about it.

Big scientific labs use mice because in general human beings are a lot closer to mice than snakes. Learning about snakes tells us more about snakes.... learning about mice helps us to learn about ourselves. That is why they study mice more than reptiles... because of their validity and capability to be transferred to humans.

Anyway, thanks Seamus for a good post.

 

[meretseger]

I got to this thread too late...

I just want to make some notes... what's advantageous in the wild is not what is advantageous in captivity. Look at pugs. Having bulging eyes and a face so flat that your breathing is impaired is very advantageous if you're being bred by humans. There are more pugs in captivity than tigers in the wild. But a pug would not last long in Siberia.

Also, eyelessness is advangeous to some animals, and when it is it seems to happen quite easily. All the examples I can think of live in caves. It's pretty easy to guess by looking at exsisting animals that if you don't live in a cave, it's good to have eyes. An eyeless trait probably comes up many times but if the animal doesn't happen to live in a cave it's removed from the gene pool quickly. Even very primitive burrowing snakes, I believe, have eyes at least capable of sensing light from dark. An eyeless python can certainly eat ok if you put food in front of it, but in the wild it would be screwed. (A side note, experimentally blinded rattlesnakes strike warm prey as accurately as seeing ones. I don't know if python's heat pits are as accurate)
(side note to side note, they just covered their eyes, they didn't remove them)

I am not in favor of breeding the reptile equivelent of a pug.

Color morphs sometimes are advantageous, as we can see by the exsitence of pattern polymorphism and melanism. There's even at least one naturally occuring population of albinos. A color morphs COULD be the next step in evolution, if the snake were still in the wild. Evolution applies a LOT different in captivity, where the selection pressures are a preference for lab mice, bright colors, and the ability to tug on people's heart strings.

I own a one eyed rainbow boa. Probably not genetic. But I'm not going to breed her, and I bought her for very cheap, not for expensive. The sellers, although they didn't say not to breed her, recognized that she was a B-grade.

Um.. that's all. Reptile should not be compared to people, so I won't talk about my congenitally deaf cousin. Until it becomes legal to keep people in little cages and force them to breed, anyway.

Erin B.

 

[glenn]

In response to everything that has been said in regards to my snake, it was on display today. The response was OVERWHELMING. Many said it was strange, but almost all said how beautiful the snake was. How odd but beautiful Simple fact is, genectics have been used and altered to fit human needs and desires. From what I personally saw today, their is a large number of people who would absolutely LOVE TO POSSES ONE.
No, I am not driven by money, regardless of what you think. But, after I answer a great many questions about the genetics of the snake I WILL BREED IT. If you don't want one, don't buy it. If you want to say that it is unethical, say it. If you want to try and destroy my "reputation" (HA HA) go fot it.
Simple fact is this. While the lack of eyes may be a disadvantage in the wild, it is not in the wild. Anyone who says that albinos exist in the wild, yes they do. How many of them survive to adulthood not many. Sure some due, but for the most part THEY DO NOT. An if you say that they do, then you are simply wrong. Call an albino a variation if you like, in the wild it is a deformity. Many of the snake pattern we see today exist only because man has crossbred and altered what mother nature has made naturally. from what I saw today, their is a desire for the eyeless gene. i saw it first hand as did many other people.
Everyones personal views and opinions are exactly that. theirs.
I have mine and so does everyone else. Some people want one, some people don't.

i personally do. don't like it, don't buy it. the price range will depend on the response i receive and if the colorization of the animal is patternless. simple as that. my snake, my choice.
bad mouth me, think i'm going to destroy the entire herping environment, thats ludacris.

i was attacked simply because i didn't agree with most of the people. corey was attacked for defending me and everyone who has agreed with me has been attacked.
thank you for all your support and if you're interested in buying one of my "deformed" snakes, let me know.

If you tell me you learned about them from this thread, I'll sale it to you for damn near FREE just to show everyone exactly how money driven I am.

 

[snakegetters]

There are some serious ethical issues to breeding for the actual trait of eyelessness. There are also ethical issues around euthanizing animals that are imperfect but could live normal lives with no pain or suffering.

I am personally more concerned with the latter than the former, though I agree that there are real potential problems with perpetuating this trait in the captive gene pool. I'd be pretty annoyed at anyone who put an eyeless animal in the freezer rather than adopt it out as a pet. The freezer is NOT considered humane euthanasia for reptiles by modern veterinary standards.

If you're really concerned that it not breed and you don't trust anyone enough to keep it as just a pet, have it spayed or neutered. Vets can do this, though it's not cheap. If you can't afford that for a pet snake, a veterinarian can at least euthanize the animal properly and humanely.

 

[Linda Demadura]

Glen,
I have to disagree with you when you say, "Call an albino a variation if you like, in the wild it is a deformity."
A snake that is an "albino" is color variation. I'm sure in "most" cases an Albino won't survive in the wild. Of course, neither will a snake with "no eyes". Then again, I'd have to say an albino has a better chance of surviving than an eyeless snake. After all the only difference between an Albino and a normal is the "paint job" Below you will find the definition of what a deformity is.


Definition: \De*formed"\, a.
Unnatural or distorted in form; having a deformity;
misshapen; disfigured; as, a deformed person; a deformed
head. -- {De*form"ed*ly}, adv. -- {De*form"ed*ness}, n.



Definition: [n] an appearance that has been spoiled or is misshapen; "there were distinguishing disfigurements on the suspect's back"; "suffering from facial disfiguration"
[n] an affliction in which some part of the body is misshapen or malformed


Synonyms: disfiguration, disfigurement, malformation, misshapenness

See Also: affliction, appearance, Arnold-Chiari deformity, chicken breast, clawfoot, cleft foot, clubfoot, pes cavus, pigeon breast, plagiocephaly, scaphocephaly, talipes, visual aspect



Anyway I don't understand your desire to "breed" your snake, but it's your snake. So what exactly makes a snake without eyes "desirable". I've saw a Burmese Python born with out eyes once. It didn't live very long. Nobody "killed it". I just didn't survive to long after it's hatching. Anyway I guess you have to do what you have to do. I'd never buy a snake with out eyes. Of course, I wouldn't kill it either. Good luck with your snake.
BTW are you ever going to post a picture of it?

 

[The BoidSmith]

Many of the snake pattern we see today exist only because man has crossbred and altered what mother nature has made naturally.

Glen,

You may want to review that concept. Albino, axanthic, piebald, pastel jungle, mohave, cinnamon, ghost are all ball python color mutations originally collected from the wild. Some are still being collected nowadays (albinos, piebalds, ghosts, for example) and when they are, they command unusually command high prices.

 

[glenn]

I guess the way that I'm seeing it as a thing of beauty rather than a deformity. I see it as a person who would see any other sort of morph pattern. As I am sorry about the burmese you refered to, luckily mine is over 12 ft long and 5 years old. The person who I came to get the snake was only the 2nd person to actually posses the animal. The breeder to him to me. He is an excellent feeder and exhibits all the same functions as any of the other snakes I have ever owned. Regardless that he has no eyes does not seem to have affected him in the least.

and I do see what your mean about the paint job, but the paint job is the very "deformity" that would be his downfall in the wild.
my snake "deformity" has not seemed to stop him from (reluctantly, I might add) to see him sold. The snake was sold simply because the gentleman could not afford to feed him. He also has the other eyeless from the same clutch, but his remainging one is the female. She is also , from what I understand, in excellent health and has the same habits and good temper as mine. For a scrub python to have descent demeanor in and of itself is odd, to be carrying the patternless patter is even better and to be completely eyeles is, in my opinon, is one of the most beatiful animals I have been lucky enough to see, much less to be the owner of.

 

[Wilomn]

Let's see here.....

All this time you let the genitic vs. chance deformity discussion go on KNOWING that there was another eyeless SIBLING to the one you had and that it just happened to be a female.

Seamus, BAD GUY was a little too easy on this guy.

He knows it will pollute the gene pool.

He has known there were other individuals with this trait that were out of the same clutch.


HE SAID NOTHING.

Glenn, you are a bad guy plain and simple.

 

[sputnik]

Absolute joke

Glen, you are in my opinion irresponisble and someone who shoud not be in possession of reptiles.

You are not motivated by money, but you are going to breed it, why?

So you can sell the babies!

This animal should be a pet only.

No ethical values whatsoever.

What a discrace.

 

[Lucille]

This post was pulled out of Hell and returned here by the grace of Webslave; and it's remaining here is contingent on our continued good behavior.

I think Glenn is using lots of rope here and permanently hanging himself in the reptile world; the BOI is more powerful and far reaching every day.

I believe it is horribly irresponsible for this animal to be bred; but I also believe that Glenn is cleverly taunting us here and baiting us to strike at him so that this post will be moved back into Hell where it would not do near as much deserved and self engendered damage to his reputation.

If we cross over the line into inappropriate attacks we will be saving his *** by having this post removed from here.

But we can certainly voice how inappropriate and irresponsible it is, to breed an animal like this....