Glendon McDonald Poor Ethics?

[KodiakWood]

Ive read throught this whole tread, And I do agree{at this time} that this snake sould not be bred .........But on the other hand If this was a "BIG TIME BREEDER "{and Y'all know who they are} not some "LITTLE GUY" Im willing to bet You'd All be in "AWE"Saying "WOW" A new Morph . Call it mishap of nature or a genectic{evolution} mishap "nobody really knows what the herp world has in store for us around the corner...Bottom line is NOBODY REALLY KNOWS so in my opinion Glen until I found out if its Genectic or a Nature Mishap ......Which brings up another question From my 11 year old son...who has read this also....Say your A breeder of High End Snakes{albino boas,balls you choose} ....you have 3 females that give birth around the same time 3 different fathers each clutch of 12 each gives birth to a no eye baby would you "Freeze" all 36 of the babies in fear of polluting the gene pool....... Im not driven by money but to lose thousands of dollars No body would do that IMOso i say cut glen some slack.......Like I said above do any of you Know for certain what we all in for Next in this thing we call"EVOLUTION"

 

[JJFOUTZ]

Question:

When did Glenn get 2 usernames/logins?
There was the origonal G.J. McDONALD and now glenn.

 

[The BoidSmith]

He also has the other eyeless from the same clutch, but his remainging one is the female.

So we know now it is highly probable it is genetic.

For a scrub python to have descent demeanor in and of itself is odd, to be carrying the patternless patter is even better and to be completely eyeles is, in my opinon, is one of the most beatiful animals

No, it is not that odd. He can't see you and can't perceive you as a potential threat until you are already handling him. Most snakes will calm down once they are hold (at that point they try to escape rather than attack).

Like I said above do any of you Know for certain what we all in for Next in this thing we call"EVOLUTION"

Yes we do, and the veredict is still valid...There are no eyeless snake populations established in the wild.

Thanks.

 

[KodiakWood]

Yes we do, and the veredict is still valid...There are no eyeless snake populations established in the wild.

That we Know of its .....possible we just havent found it yet JMHO

 

[Lucille]

Bill this is a reasonable discussion; and each side is trying to present a viewpoint to support their conclusion on why or why not this animal should or should not be bred or ever sold. To say that something in the snake world MAY be out there, we just don't know of it, is an irrelevant wild card. Sure and for all we know there are snakes out there on Sunday mornings eating lox and bagels and reading the New York Times; that doesn't mean we should alter our discussions to take that possibility into account.

 

[KodiakWood]

Im not asking anybody to alter nothing but you do need to see both sides of the road Do you know FOR a fact that these dont Exsist in the wild or is it that they just havent been found yet?

 

[Lucille]

Which ones? The ones noshing bagels?

 

[KodiakWood]

LOL No the ones that have no Eyes

 

[Lucille]

Well, Bill, with all due respect and this being Sunday and all, there is a place in the world for belief of that we cannot prove. I am not going to turn this thread anywhere near religious belief but that is what I speak of.
However, we are talking here of science, and reasoned discussion. Do I know if there are blind scrubs in the wild? Do I know whether there are little scrub families sitting at the table and reading the Times?
No. But scientific discussion rests on objective facts; proof, scientific experiment that can be repeated and have valid results.
This is a science arena, Bill. Let's see what you got.

 

[clifford]

But on the other hand If this was a "BIG TIME BREEDER "{and Y'all know who they are} not some "LITTLE GUY" Im willing to bet You'd All be in "AWE"Saying "WOW" A new Morph .

The whole point here is that a physical deformity is not a morph. How many times must rational people repeat it before it becomes accepted? This is NOT a pattern variation (morph), it is a physical handicap. That is a fact. It is NOT a matter of oppinion, or open ended discussion. You can not debate this, because it is not up for debate. As a rule, scub pythons have eyes. Not having eyes is a deformity. The end.

Secondly, I've not come across a "big name breeder" that would ever put an animal like this up as a morph. Ever. End of story. Simply wouldn't happen. People that would could never possibly create a decent name for themselves in the market, and thus, would never be "big time". I would agree that some people (usually very new to the hobby) tend to parrot what some of the industry leaders might say...but to believe what you're saying I suppose spinal kinks will be the next big herp rage. Look at my new kinked morph, straight from "Big Name Reptile Breeders"! Don't think that breeders haven't had to put down other handicaped animals before...because they do put them down.

Im not driven by money but to lose thousands of dollars No body would do that IMOso i say cut glen some slack.

Rephrased as:

"I'm not money driven, but for the chance at a few thou, I'd certainly screw a bunch of people over...and I think everyone else would too, IMO, so don't bash this guy for doing it."

Please don't read the following with some made-up vindictive tone, but instead with the sad, tired tone with which I'm posting it....

That's just great. Thanks for posting this, it really brightened my day. If you would really sell defective animals in order to rape some poor suckers for a few thousand dollars, then I really hope I never have the displeasure of doing business with you. Not throwing stones here...just stating fact. I would hate to be taken in by someone that would knowingly sell me defective animals. Doing what you're taking about is magnitudes worse than what everyone is mad at Glen over, and EXACTLY the reason they're asking him not to let the animal be bred. Is that not clear?

If I'm wrong here, someone please correct me...

*sigh*

Cliff Miller

 

[Linda Demadura]

Well, I don't know if this is a "genetic demformity" or one caused by "temps" during incubation of the eggs. I do know that this is Glen's snake. He can keep it, sell it, or breed it "if" he chooses. I personally would never breed an animal that was born without eyes. I wouldn't ever kill an animal that was born with deformities if it was a healthy animal. As long as it can function normally and isn't in pain it deserves to live. I really hope that Glen doesn't breed it, but again that's his choice. I hope "if" it does breed an reproduce that there are acutally people that do want an eyeless Scrub Python. The only "real" problem I can see with Glen breeding his snake is that he "may" get eyeless babies that "nobody" wants. I don't know how big Scrub Pythons get, but I've heard they get pretty HUGE! Another problem I can see with Glen breeding his snake is that "IF" it turns out that nobody wants eyeless Scrubs then he "might" not let others know about this possible genetic abnormality when selling the rest of the "normal looking" offspring. Glen, I still say "color variations" in other snakes are a "genetic oddity" and not a "deformity". Color morphs look "exactly" like the normal colors, except for their "color". Of course, there are Albinos that are born with out eyes or missing an eye. Some of their "normal colored" siblings are also born this way. These animals are not "prized" for their deformed appearance. Most serious breeders try to "avoid" this trait in their breeders and offspring. Some, although I've never know anyone to, might "dispose" of them as soon as their born. I guess to sum this all up I think you need to "seriously research" what your "thinking" about doing. I'm sure you don't want to mass produce Scrubs that nobody wants. Yeah, I know you said he went over well at the Reptile Show. That still doesn't mean there's a "high demand" for eyeless snakes.
BTW I know I keep asking but, I'd really like to see a pic of him. I keep hearing how beautiful he is, but nobody has posted a pic. Are you ever going to post one or do you prefer not too. Le me know.
Thanks,
Linda

 

[Gordon c. Snelling]

You know the thing that scares me about this whole mess is that I can see the chance that there are breeders out there that could breed this deformed snake and manage to market it appropriately enough to create a demand. Look at the aquarium hobby, the production of deformed freaks is rampant. Balloon Mollies, Parrot cichlids, Angel fish missing gill covers, bulging and bubble eyed goldfish. Sad as it is to say the market is there for such culls. That said if this snake had appeared in my collection not only would it have been immediately removed from the gene pool, but it's parents would not be bred again.

 

[FordPrefect]

Attacking the owner is dumb

Attacking the owner is DUMB!! If you are worried about about this snake contaminating the gene pool then BUY THAT SNAKE and then put it in your freezer or what ever your ignorant minds tell you to do.

This guy got something UNUSUAL. You can call it a defect, aberrant, morph, strange, ungodly whatever. It is his to do what he pleases.

Who are you to tell him to cull it. Tell all the hybridizers to cull ALL their animals also. Hybrids won't happen in nature.

It sounds like a few of you people wanted to buy this snake before this guy did and he bought it first. Its obvious some of you are gelous he bought the snake first. You guys really piss me off by attacking this guy. You are a bunch of LOSERS.

WHAT'S up with that poll? The possible answers are rigged.
"A blind snake is better So the snake won't bite you?"

A moron wrote that pole.

HAVE ANY OF YOU EVEN GRADUATED FROM A 4 YEAR COLLEGE?
A plague on your animals. And lots of deformities too.

 

[gamerjjt]

I have to say one thing. This is kinda off from where the subject has been for the past 4-5 pages, but it gets back to the point at hand.

I saw this animal yesterday at the Texas Reptiles Show in San Antonio, TX. This has to be one of the the, if not the, most impressive animals I have ever seen. This animal is extremely healthy, you can tell by the girth and overall body. She/He, sorry Glenn I could not remember, is a very impressive animal that should be respected, and treated like a "special animal."

I have read what Matt said, and I have talked to him about this, and I agree with him in the respect of this animals senses being heightened. When a person is blind, there sense of hearing is better. Why would you not think that in a snake, the same thing would happen. I understand that comparing a human, and a snake is like comparing apples and oranges, but who is anyone to say Matt or I am wrong. Do you know it is wrong? If you do, I would like some proof.

I believe that IF Glenn decides to breed this animal, then there is a chance that some of the animals could be eyeless, but then again there is a chance that they won't. If he does decide to breed it, I would urge him to explain to the potential buyer to inform them that one of the parents is eyeless. I believe that would be the ethical thing to do. I met Glen for the first time yesterday as well, and from the "short" talk I had with him, I believe that he would do just that.

Glenn seems like a pretty stand up guy in my book. Breed it if you want Glenn, but I do urge you to explain to the potential buyers that one of the parents is eyeless. I would not go as far as to sell these animals are het eyeless, as was mentioned, I believe on page 3 or 4, but tell them nonetheless. I do not see the eyeless trait as being simple recessive, as was mentioned before. It may not even be genetic. Until it is proven as genetic, it will just be an anomolly(sp?)

I think this will be a very interesting project. I say breed the hell outta the animal Glenn, and I will be here to share the excitement when they hatch and it proves to be genetic, or not. If proves to be genetic, then you can think about it then if you want the bloodline to stay eyeless, or cull off the offspring, and keep the parent as a pet. Either way, it is a VERY impressive animal.

Jason Trott

 

[Wilomn]

When a person is blind, there sense of hearing is better. Why would you not think that in a snake, the same thing would happen. Jason Trott

jason, you ARE cognizant of the fact that snakes NO NOT hear to begin with right?

 

[Wilomn]

That should have read "DO NOT HEAR" not "no not hear"

sorry

 

[gamerjjt]

I was using that sense as an example.

Let me make it better, just for you, okay. Would that make you feel better???

If a person is blind, they can usually hear better. What makes you think that if a snake is blind, or in this case eyeless, it cannot sense heat better, or feel vibrations better, or sense smells better, or any other sense be heightened? If anyone has proof that this is not the case, please show me. I would be highly interested.

Is that better for you?????

Jason Trott

 

[DavidBeard]

Re: Attacking the owner is dumb

Attacking the owner is DUMB!! If you are worried about about this snake contaminating the gene pool then BUY THAT SNAKE and then put it in your freezer or what ever your ignorant minds tell you to do.

This guy got something UNUSUAL. You can call it a defect, aberrant, morph, strange, ungodly whatever. It is his to do what he pleases.

Who are you to tell him to cull it. Tell all the hybridizers to cull ALL their animals also. Hybrids won't happen in nature.

It sounds like a few of you people wanted to buy this snake before this guy did and he bought it first. Its obvious some of you are gelous he bought the snake first. You guys really piss me off by attacking this guy. You are a bunch of LOSERS.

WHAT'S up with that poll? The possible answers are rigged.
"A blind snake is better So the snake won't bite you?"

A moron wrote that pole.

HAVE ANY OF YOU EVEN GRADUATED FROM A 4 YEAR COLLEGE?
A plague on your animals. And lots of deformities too.

This has to be the most thick headed post on this whole thread, not including the topic of the thread.....It amazes me how ignorant some people can be.

 

[clifford]

I saw this animal yesterday at the Texas Reptiles Show in San Antonio, TX. This has to be one of the the, if not the, most impressive animals I have ever seen.

I read someone else who went to that show that found "no such dealer or animal"...and from the sounds of it, the only reason he went to the show at all was to find that particular scrub. Did anyone else manage to find it?

Glenn seems like a pretty stand up guy in my book. Breed it if you want Glenn, but I do urge you to explain to the potential buyers that one of the parents is eyeless.

Wait a second...maybe Glenn's the best guy in the world...God knows I've done/promoted/liked things that other people hate and would rally against...but didn't Glenn or his friend post several times that they thought the eyeless trait was some kind of incubation problem? How the heck could he possibly think that if one of the parents was eyeless...? That doesn't sound very stand-up to me. Maybe I misread something?

All in all, I think everyone (myself included) has blown this whole thing way out of proportion...it's the topic at hand that gets people worked up, and in all likelyhood whether this snake thrives in the largest scrub breeding program ever or simply drops dead tomorrow really won't have any bearing on any of us or our animals.

I think the hybrid argument is a little out of context, but as a pro-hybrid hobbiest, it still shuts me up. I really enjoy a lot of hybrids that I know other people here would love to see destroyed. I'd put forth at a flawless hybrid is different than something missing body parts and basic senses...but oh well. To each their own.

Reading the post about the fish freaks kinda hit home. I used to be a big aquarium hobbiest, and it always made me sad to see the latest freak show (things injected with dyes, bred to the point they can hardly swim, etc). All in all it reminded me that an eyeless scrub python certainly isn't the end of the world, the species, the hobby or anything else at all. If perfectly formed fish can co-exist with the freaks, then so can perfectly formed snakes. The only thing it changes is that if I ever pick up some southerns, you can be pretty sure I'll want documentation showing where they came from.

Cliff Miller

 

[gamerjjt]

I read someone else who went to that show that found "no such dealer or animal"...and from the sounds of it, the only reason he went to the show at all was to find that particular scrub. Did anyone else manage to find it?

The animal was not at the show until about 3:30 or 4pm. The show was over at 5pm, so it is possible that they just left before the animal was there. I had someone call me when the animal arrived, and I made the 20+ mile trip back to see it.

Wait a second...maybe Glenn's the best guy in the world...God knows I've done/promoted/liked things that other people hate and would rally against...but didn't Glenn or his friend post several times that they thought the eyeless trait was some kind of incubation problem? How the heck could he possibly think that if one of the parents was eyeless...? That doesn't sound very stand-up to me. Maybe I misread something?

I think I could have worded things better. Let me try again.
What I am saying is that IF he happens to breed this animal, and some or all of the babies/hatchlings, whatever you want to call them, come out normal. Explain to the potential buyers, of the babies/hatchlings, that they came from a eyeless parent, which is the animal that Glenn has.

Is this worded better?(no attempt at sarcasm)

Jason Trott