Info Global Captive Breeders

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ok heres the story:
around late sept. i contacted mitch about a pair of blue tree monitors he had for sale on kingsnake for 1000$. i sent the paid asap and was told that he would be shipping via delta dash. my local delta dash closes at 11pm and the plane was not arriving till 1045pm. i paid the guy at the desk a extra 50 bucks cash if he would wait and get them due to the fact i didn't want them to get cold. i opened the box at delta par micths instructions and made sure they were alive. they where cold but alive so i brought them home and got them in there setup.
about two weeks later the female began to look weak. i called mitch and he told me to lower my humidity (which was at 60%) and lower the temp ( witch was at 86 hooked to a herpstat) and she if she did any better in a day or so. the next morn it was dead. i called mitch and he told me he would replace her with a baby blue tree for xxx$. i was not thrilled that it was going to cost me more money but thought it was better then nothing. we both agreed that it was getting chilli and should wait till warmer temps.
i woke up to find the other blue tree dead the other morning. i took it to a local vet and she found ticks on him. now mind you that these are the only animals i have gotten that i was told were c/h and parasite free from anyone! i deal in mostly balls and have bought all of them from trusted breeders and know they are all c/b. the vet a friend of mine told me that she believed them to be w/c and not c/h. she told me she was sorry that this happen and didn't charge me for the look over. i brought the blue home and put it in the freezer. i sent mitch a e-mail and ask him how we could deal with this cause i feel as tho the blues were sick when i got them. i'm waiting to hear back from him and just thought i would start this thread to keep everyone informed on what happens.
i would also like to hear what everyone thinks would be fair? i think i'm intitled to something considering that the animals were w/c not c/h. the only reason i didn't notice the ticks is because i was told not to handle them they would stress easy. i have talked to other blue breeders and told them how they were setup and they all said they should have been fine! any one who knows me knows that i am a freak when it comes to taking care of my reptiles and only buy what i fell is the best for them. i setup a whole canopy for them with misters,t-stats,uvb/uva bulbs and timers. i bake all my mulch just to be safe and use throw away deli cups for water bowls that i change twice a week or when ever needed. i also use f-10 to clean everthing.
this is not a bad guy thread! i have not heard back from mitch yet so i'm not sure what he is going to do! i just want everyone to know what is going on and will update this post either way!!

thanks all,
bruce angelini

 

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just got this:
where else did the ticks come from? they were on the animals when you sent them. the female died only a couple weeks after you sent them. i didn't notice because i didn't want to stress them out. i know that they didn't get anything here considering its winter. they came from you. you even told me that you had other problems with blues you sold to other people as well. you also said they were healthy and bug free. that not the truth though is it. i talked to other blue tree dealers and they all said my setup was great! none of my other animals have bugs at all just the ones i got from you. if you don't want to make it right then whatever. i was wondering why you were selling a pair for 1000$ when most blues go for that alone. if it's to good to be true then it prob. is huh? and what baby? you never sent a baby it was two adults. and how did i confirm it's well being sevral times? i told you the male was eating and the female looked sick then it died. how is that confirming well being? if anything i was telling you there was a problem. the male just hung in longer or got sick from the sick female you sent. say whatever you want but i go to the extreme for all my animals and this is the last time i'll buy anything thats not cb with proof over the net.

> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Message about: New Shipment of Monitors
> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 23:36:48 -0800
>
> Three months later and you find ticks and parasites and you now believe that
> I sent you sick animals. The animals were in perfect shape when you received
> them. The baby was in perfect shape in the months after. My guarantee
> doesn't last forever and certainly not after you confirmed its well being
> several times. And to clear things up, they were not captive hatched or
> wild caught, but captive bred in Indo. That's a big difference.
>
> Mitch
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 9:14 PM
> Subject: Message about: New Shipment of Monitors
>
>
> > *************
> > NOTE: This message was sent to you via the Kingsnake.com Classifieds.
> > If you feel this message is fraudulent or abusive please forward it to
> > [email protected].
> > NOTE: DO NOT flag this message as SPAM/JUNK as your ability to receive
> > legitimate messages from Kingsnake.com Classifieds may be compromised
> > *************
> >
> > i woke up the other morning and the other blue tree i bought from was
> > dead. i brought it to the local vet and she found four ticks on him. i
> > told her that they were c/h and she said not likely because of the ticks
> > and parisites (not mites either) she found. these are the only animals i
> > have gotten that are wild at all and know they must have been on them when
> > you sent them to me. it is winter here and no way they could have come
> > from me in anyway. i believe that these animals were sick to begin with
> > and have checked with other breeders of blues about my setup. they all say
> > that they should have done just fine. i didn't handle them as to not
> > stress them and prob. why i didn't see the ticks to begin with. i kept the
> > one that just died and put it in the freezer. i'm not happy at all and
> > would like to know what you think would be fair to fix this. i don't feel
> > that this is my fault considering that they must have had these problems
> > when i got them. you had also told me that all!
> > of them were looked over and had no problems/parisites and this is not
> > the case. please let me know.
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > Click on (or cut and paste into you browser's
> > location window) the URL below to view the ad that
> > this message is in response to.
> >
> > http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?de=819252&cat=53
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > This message was sent by an unregistered or non logged in user.
> > This person may or may not be who they say they are.
> > The return address they provide may or may not be their correct address.
> >
> > Sent 11:14 PM, Dec 11th, 2010 from I.P. Address
> > 96.233.152.212/pool-96-233-152-212.prvdri.fios.verizon.net
> >
>

 

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i geuss this is a lesson learned! next time i'll go through a known breeder. i just find it strange that the only animals in my whole collection that has a problem is the ones i thought i got a great deal on. i understand that it has been a while but i'm sure that this was not due to lack of care. i love my reptiles and wish i ccould have saved them. i let trust get in the way of better judgement. i thought they were parisite free and learned the hard way always take a new animal you get from someone you don't know of to a vet as soon as you get it. i know now that i'm out the money and sad that the blues are gone. R.I.P guys your happy now!

 

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got this when i woke up:

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Message about: New Shipment of Monitors
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2010 08:07:22 -0800


my error. I confused your situation with that other buyer. As far as I'm concerned, I owe you one animal.

 

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i must say i'm glad that he is willing to meet me half way on this. and hope that it does work out. will keep everyone posted.

 

[exoticsdr]

It would be very easy to determine if the animals were WC or CB because of the ticks. Did you or your vet get the ticks ID'd? Generally an easy thing to get done at your local college biology department.

 

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she was unsure of the spieces but knew it was not local. the deer tick is common here and is very small black/brown thing. these were about the size of a pen round or so and white. either way i geuss they were cb in indo. so who knows?

 

[Ameivaboy]

Did you ever get fecals done on these? I'm sure they had very heavy parasite loads.
Captive bred in indo huh? ...... does that mean farmed? I bet it does...

 

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i'm not sure about the cb in indo either. i'm waiting to see what goes down. so far he says he only owes me one animal and i geuss it's better then nothing. i did tell him i prefer something cb so we'll see. either way i will be taking any new animal right to the vet for a full check up. it could have just been bad luck for both of us. atleast he is atempting to work with me so fingers crossed that it goes better now.

 

[Paul Kent]

Did he ever provide (or did you ever see) his Terms Of Sale? If so, what kind of garuantees does he put on his animals?

 

[ShadowAceD]

I would just like to point out the obvious ...

He confused you for someone else. Meaning ... you are not the only person to have animals die and he is confirming this. Whether it be a three months or not ... it's suspect.

Good luck with him righting the issue for you, though I'd not hold my breath.

 

[JudyC]

I would just like to point out the obvious ...

He confused you for someone else. Meaning ... you are not the only person to have animals die and he is confirming this. Whether it be a three months or not ... it's suspect.

Good luck with him righting the issue for you, though I'd not hold my breath.

That logic doesn't necessarily follow. He got his customers confused, but that doesn't mean the other customer's lizard died.

The buyer bears some responsibility in this if he did not examine the lizards when he got them, or shortly thereafter. I can understand not wanting to stress them out...ok, so don't get them out just to play with them. But one NEEDS to give every animal you purchase a thorough looking-over to make sure it is, indeed, what you expect it to be. Sex needs to be checked (if it can be told)...animals need to be checked for any injuries, deformities, signs of illness, AND external parasites.

If you went THAT long without looking that closely at them, then I do believe you bear some of the burden of responsibility in this.

Does that absolve the seller of HIS responsibility of misrepresenting animals? Absolutely not, and I hope you don't take my words as saying so. So far though, you haven't actually proven that the monitor had ticks and that those ticks could not have come from your place. I'm not saying you have to do this immediately, but if the seller comes on here and denies all culpability, you need to be prepared with pictures and documentation from the vet.

Good luck. I know that's a lot of money to be out. I hope you get it worked out to your satisfaction.

 

[bad-one]

I would just like to point out the obvious ...

He confused you for someone else. Meaning ... you are not the only person to have animals die and he is confirming this. Whether it be a three months or not ... it's suspect.

Good luck with him righting the issue for you, though I'd not hold my breath.

That's the biggest thing that stuck out to me...

 

[Ameivaboy]

I just want to point out that the tree monitor complex is well known for not doing well in captivity. Most of the imports do not survive long in captivity. One considering purchasing them should be aware of this. They come in heavily parasitized, dehydrated and stressed.
An immediate vet check should be done when acquiring them.

 

[SIGNATURE DESIGN EXOTICS]

That logic doesn't necessarily follow. He got his customers confused, but that doesn't mean the other customer's lizard died.

The buyer bears some responsibility in this if he did not examine the lizards when he got them, or shortly thereafter. I can understand not wanting to stress them out...ok, so don't get them out just to play with them. But one NEEDS to give every animal you purchase a thorough looking-over to make sure it is, indeed, what you expect it to be. Sex needs to be checked (if it can be told)...animals need to be checked for any injuries, deformities, signs of illness, AND external parasites.

If you went THAT long without looking that closely at them, then I do believe you bear some of the burden of responsibility in this.

Does that absolve the seller of HIS responsibility of misrepresenting animals? Absolutely not, and I hope you don't take my words as saying so. So far though, you haven't actually proven that the monitor had ticks and that those ticks could not have come from your place. I'm not saying you have to do this immediately, but if the seller comes on here and denies all culpability, you need to be prepared with pictures and documentation from the vet.

Good luck. I know that's a lot of money to be out. I hope you get it worked out to your satisfaction.[/Q



i did look them over to besure that all thre toes and tail were there. i watch them to make sure that there was no limping and such. as far as the ticks tho they must have been small when they came in. i know i didn't get them here cause i only keep cb animals and i'm 100% sure that they are. i have never even seen a tick on a herp till i got the blues. also if you look at the e-mail that i'll post after this reply it sounds fishy to me that he's not having some kind of problems with his monitors.

 

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I just want to point out that the tree monitor complex is well known for not doing well in captivity. Most of the imports do not survive long in captivity. One considering purchasing them should be aware of this. They come in heavily parasitized, dehydrated and stressed.
An immediate vet check should be done when acquiring them.

i'm very aware that they are hard to care for in captivity! thats why i spent aover a 1000$ on there setup alone. misters, herpstats,hides,uvb/uva bulbs, ceramic heaters everthing to besure that they would feel safe and sucure. on top of that i was told they were cb so they shouldn't have had the problems of wc animals right?

 

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got this email last night:

I have pulled all my monitor ads from Kingsnake and will never offer them again. The only Blue Trees that I have are my breeding colony's males. They are in perfect condition, have been treated with Flagyl and have always fed on rat fuzzies. When the weather is better, I will send one to you, completely at my expense.

Mitch

 

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That logic doesn't necessarily follow. He got his customers confused, but that doesn't mean the other customer's lizard died.

forgot to mention that when i talked to him about the first blue that died he told me that he had this problem with another customer and it did die. he said that the females seeme to be stressing out and would die. mind you that these are cb animals and adults now. wouldn't they be somewhat less likly to stress at this point?

 

[JudyC]

forgot to mention that when i talked to him about the first blue that died he told me that he had this problem with another customer and it did die. he said that the females seeme to be stressing out and would die. mind you that these are cb animals and adults now. wouldn't they be somewhat less likly to stress at this point?

I don't know...the only thing I vaguely know about blue tree monitors is that they're delicate and difficult to care for.

It certainly SEEMS like you received something less than well-established cb animals. And it seems like the seller is realizing that they're not as easy to sell as he thought they would be and is willing to work with you to some degree or another....so pulling out all the stops to prove your case may not be necessary.

... The only Blue Trees that I have are my breeding colony's males. ...

This does make me wonder what happened to all HIS females. You don't have a "breeding colony" if all you have is males.

They really are beautiful animals. I hope you get one that is healthy and able to thrive for you.

 

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i'm talking with a well known breeder now and hope to get a pair of cb babys. i have asked mitch to just refund the one blue thinking it is more then fair since i'm still out the other one. i'm waiting to hear back from him now so we'll see.