good beginner venomous snake

[Copperheadman]

I'm going to have to dissent from some of the views espoused on this thread...

While I feel that working with multiple species, of any kind, is a great way to increase the knowledge and experience of a keeper, I truly feel that there is no non-venomous species which can act as a substitute when looking at potentially keeping a hot. Sure, there are species which can be used to learn basic restraint techniques and every species kept gives a certain indefinable measure of competence to a herper but...

The best "first hot" is one that belongs to someone else. Locating a suitable individual who already keeps venomous species and volunteering to clean cages and fill water bowls in exchange for a hands on education about the animals is the ONLY way to go. From there, the best species for any given individual to keep is one that is not considered capable of a lethal envenomation and that they personally feel comfortable working with. I learned (meaning had pounded into my head) handling techniques from my father, who kept crotalids and thus I personally feel way more comfortable hooking a massive, agressive atrox than I do handling just about ANY elapid (I also grew up with corals, but the behavior of a coral is vastly different than the behavior of a cobra or mamba) because those are the species I "leanred" on.

Youa re 100 percent correct there Seamus.The BEST way to learn hots is through someone else..in other words find someone that is willing and has the experience to teach you how to handle. I,like Mr. Haley am more than comfortable hooking a big Timber,but really shy away when it comes to tonging a cobra,those thing are to damned unpredictable. Very well written Seamus...but what else should we expect from you!!!

 

[snakekid13]

i dont know of anyone who keeps hots close were i live is their another alternative to this it will greatly be appreciated. thanks

 

[Irwin]

The best "first hot" is one that belongs to someone else. Locating a suitable individual who already keeps venomous species and volunteering to clean cages and fill water bowls in exchange for a hands on education about the animals is the ONLY way to go.

Yes, I agree, but some people,like me, don't know any other people that deal in hots, thus the reason i got an usually non agro, non lethal copperhead.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Yes, I agree, but some people,like me, don't know any other people that deal in hots, thus the reason i got an usually non agro, non lethal copperhead.

If there's nobody "near" you to learn from it means one of three things...

1) Venomous snakes are illegal to own. Virginia the state I found mixed reports, most stated that venomous animals were legal, some stated that non-native venomous species required a state permit. There were MANY counties, cities and towns within the state where venomous reptiles were 100% across the boards not even a permit system illegal to own. Something to consider to be certain.

2) You didn't really look. If venomous snakes are legal in an area, you WILL find venomous keepers. Not having one next door is not a justified reason to skip training with an experienced individual just because the nearest one is a thirty minute bus ride (or more) away.

3) The local venomous keepers were unwilling to allow you to train under them. I would personally NEVER let a fourteen year old anywhere near my hots unless it was my own kid. "Nobody will teach me because they don't think it's safe or responsible." is not an appropriate excuse for skipping it entirely and getting an animal anyway.

Frankly the idea of an untrained fourteen year old owning dangerously venomous (if not commonly lethal) animals sickens me to the core. If the animal belongs to a parent who is it's primary caretaker, that's fine and good but you need to make this clear when you discuss the animal. If your parents know less about reptiles than you do, or you are allowed unsupervised handling of the animal and THEY do not have prior experience, then there is a serious problem here.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Forgot to add in the last post...

The fact you chose the login name "Irwin" is frankly extremely disturbing as well.

A fourteen year old kid with no training who thinks that fat-headed australian simpleton is in ANY way, shape or form a worthwhile or respectable keeper/handler/herpetologist is the very last person that I, or many other venomous keepers, want owning ANY hot.

When you get bit... and you will get bit... and it will make the news... life just gets harder for the people who took the time and put in the effort to own these animals in a manner which is legal, responsible and safe for both the animals and the keepers. As Tanith says, handling venomous snakes is not an impossibility, nor does it really deserve *quite* the mystique that has formed up around it but ignorant individuals have no business being placed into a position of responsibility like this.

I'm trying very hard to maintain a post that isn't punctuated by bursts of profanity and rage but... your attitude really does make me outright angry.

 

[Mustangrde1]

I have to agree with Seamus on this. In as much as there is no substitute for training with an EXPERIENCED keeper of the species in which you wish to work with. Also Minors keeping hots disturbs me not in as much their mentality though that does play in to it. But in fact if they are bitten or a friend is bitten the parents of the minor are liable for damages. Let us not forget the implications this will have if the Media gets a hold of such a story" HEADLINE" Minor Child Bitten by Pet Snake.

As a Parent I could not condone my child keeping a venomous reptile until I felt they had the maturity both in age and accountability for the aftermath of a bite. Also an important thing to remember in this age of big brother watching if a child was to get bit Child Services could make the parents life a living hell. Just not a good idea despite how well intent or mature the minor is. I do know of several minors who I would conceder excellent keepers but I still worry about the what if.

As for not being able to find a trainer. There are many good websites out there that have hot keepers perhaps asking one on those sites for a keeper to train you and hold your animals under their care till you no longer a minor is a good idea. You would still be able to work with them and more importantly learn proper handling skills.

 

[Irwin]

My attitude? I simply stated that no one that i can find keeps hots, and thats the reason that i got a copperhead, something that any if it did bite me, would not need medical assistance. Making a personal attack on a 14 year old, in my book, isn't very " grown up." In Va every hot is legal except for crotalus horridus and the brown tree snake. And, before you made your little personal attack, i never said i wasn't still looking for a trainer. In my opinion its the people, like you, that won't even consider the thoughts of young people, thats makes the real venomous keeper a dying breed. More and more people are getting bit because the real herpers won't train them, only the much less experienced ones. Thus when the "trainer" passes them, they aren't really ready. It probably means nothing to you, but before i really respected you, and your views, but after the personal attack, and saying that if you could you would curse me, the respect is gone, and is never coming back.

 

[Seamus Haley]

i got a copperhead, something that any if it did bite me, would not need medical assistance

That statement, right there, fully justifies my opinion that you should not have this animal.

In Va every hot is legal except for crotalus horridus and the brown tree snake.

Individual counties, cities and towns can have their own laws which are more restrictive than those of the state. In searching for Virginia venomous laws I came across quite a few counties where venomous animals were across the board illegal to own for private use. Educational use is something else, but that requires a good number of additional permits, tax exempt status, AZA membership and the like.

In my opinion its the people, like you, that won't even consider the thoughts of young people, thats makes the real venomous keeper a dying breed. More and more people are getting bit because the real herpers won't train them, only the much less experienced ones.

I fully respect the views and opinions of young people. Some of the best herpers I know, the quickest, brightest and those with the most inate skill are still minors. That doesn't mean I want them owning venomous snakes. The good ones... young or old... realize that there are additional responsibiltiies inherent in owning an animal which is considered by the general voting public to be dangerous and none of the minors who I do respect would consider owning one until they are adults because THEY know the media feeding frenzy an envenomation would result in.

It probably means nothing to you, but before i really respected you, and your views, but after the personal attack, and saying that if you could you would curse me, the respect is gone, and is never coming back.

I am sorry you feel that way. I didn't want to swear AT you, simply that your statements made me want to swear. Which I did... quite loudly, at the top of my lungs, in my own home. I do value the opinions of other people, to a point... If you have lost respect for me, it gives me a reason to pause for a moment or two and consider MY approach to the situation. I will not alter my viewpoints or opinions specifically because I'm saying something that you don't want to hear... I *might* modify my approach slightly.

 

[snakegetters]

My personal feeling is that young venomous keepers who have the full support of their parents should be encouraged. As someone who regularly snuck sidewinders in mayonnaise jars under my bed as a little girl, I can testify that you cannot keep venomous snakes out of the hands of any kid who lives anywhere near them and really wants them. Try to take one snake away and they'll go out to the woodpile and catch another, and hide it better this time.

You can try to make sure that they are keeping with the knowledge and support of their parents, using secure housing and appropriate tools. You can encourage them to keep non lethal species and to get a lot of experience with nonvenomous snakes first. You can't totally stop them or deny them, and if you try, it's likely to have bad consequences (like sidewinders in jars under beds).

Another thing you can't do is to tell parents how to raise their kids. If this kid's parents say yes, you may keep a copperhead, it isn't my place to say that they can't give that permission to their own child. Again, all you can do is educate and encourage good safety standards. "Just say no" is a philosophy that doesn't work in the real world.

Yes, learning from other keepers is a good idea. It's not always possible or feasible, but it's a good idea. I am glad to help and educate young herpers and their parents together. I would not let a minor anywhere near my collection unsupervised, but with their parents or legal guardians they are welcome.

 

[snakegetters]

Originally posted by Irwin I simply stated that no one that i can find keeps hots, and thats the reason that i got a copperhead, something that any if it did bite me, would not need medical assistance.

1. Try harder. There are lots of hot keepers in Virginia.

2. If you are bitten by a copperhead and it is not a dry bite, if there are symptoms and swelling, you are definitely going to need medical assistance.

I agree with Sean that your statement implying otherwise does not demonstrate appropriate knowledge or responsibility for a venomous keeper.

 

[snakekid13]

what?!?!?!

i was just asking about what is a good beginner venomous snake when i do become an adult and you made it look like i didnt try to find someone that kept hots i know plenty of people that keep many other snakes which just happen not to be hots. Im not going to go to some strangers house and ask him to train me about them and teach me all the things about them. I personally wish i didnt even start this thread because all it did was cause a bunch of immature adults to have thier little temper tantrums if everyone remembered what it was like to be a kid like snakegetters she actually has respect for me and irwin but all seamus and mustang did was make me have no respect for them at all anyone who can talk to a kid like that is just not right. All i wanted to do was learn a good starter hot for in the future. anyways i've made my point and you can criticize it as much as you but i am no longer taking advice from jerks.

 

[Mustangrde1]

These " Jerks " as you put it would be the people to help you. Unfortunately your comments have reinforced my arguments as to why minors should not have venomous reptiles as a rule.

Your immature attitude when presented with options and alternative ways to learn while gaining the age and maturity is exactly why I believe most minors should not own them.

Never did I belittle you or condemn you. In fact I presented very viable options that could allow you to become a knowledgeable and safe keeper if that is what your dreams and wishes were.

If you are mad or upset that I pointed out the truths and facts of what can happen when a bite occurs and the punitive possibilites to the person or responcible adult parties then you truly do have much growing up to do. I wish you the best.

 

[snakekid13]

???

you didnt give us advice and you wouldnt be the person to help me because you stated that " you wouldnt even let a 14 year old near your hots" so technically you wouldnt be the one to help me your the one that criticezes us on our personal opinions.

 

[Mustangrde1]

you didnt give us advice

Please explain to me what this is then.

As for not being able to find a trainer. There are many good websites out there that have hot keepers perhaps asking one on those sites for a keeper to train you and hold your animals under their care till you no longer a minor is a good idea. You would still be able to work with them and more importantly learn proper handling skills.

Looks much like advice on #1 where to ask for help! #2 it give you the advice to have a more seasoned/skilled keeper keep them for you so that you can still work with it under proper supervision which #3 would teach you proper handling skills! #4 gives you obviously time to gain the maturity you apparently are lacking.

Next you say

" you wouldnt even let a 14 year old near your hots"

Where did I ever say that? I did not nor have I ever said that. MY EXACT WORDS WERE

As a Parent I could not condone my child keeping a venomous reptile until I felt they had the maturity both in age and accountability for the aftermath of a bite

To clarify I would let my boy work with me in the hot room without a problem but only I have the key to the room and the cages. Then again my boy has the maturity to ask if he wants to go in there and knows he is welcome to with my supervision or his mothers. He also knows Until he is 18 he will not be allowed first by law and second by us to own a venomous. Although he also has the maturity to not disrespect or try and insult his elders but to listen to their advice and concerns about a situation.

Now try to act mature and not put words in peoples mouths or in this case type and you may find people can give you help. Although my definitive opinion is for certain now that you do not need to be keeping venomous reptiles at this time. However with information and help along with a few more years of maturity mentally you may make a good keeper.

 

[snakegetters]

Seamus,

I was keeping hots before I was 14. There are a lot of bright and responsible young people whom I'd trust with a hot a lot more than I would trust a lot of adults. Age is not the only predictor of either ability or maturity. I would rather see a bright young 14 year old with a copperhead than a drug abusing, heavy drinking, tattoo covered, wife beating, macho 40 year old with a bigger ego than IQ. A hell of a lot more snake bites are associated with drugs and alcohol than with youth.

Scott,

You have some good points about the legal issues if a minor child is bitten by a venomous snake that his or her guardian permitted that child to keep as a pet. They should be seriously considered by any families who keep venomous.

Snakekid,

It's not cool to call people jerks on this forum. I don't agree with all of Seamus' opinions either, but I can understand why he has them. Scott explained how bad things could happen that would affect all keepers if a minor is bitten and the story hits the press. He's telling the simple truth there. It sucks that it's true, but it is. Whether it's fair or not, minors keeping venomous reptiles do pose a potential legal threat to everyone in the hobby. That's a fact that you will have to deal with and hopefully overcome by demonstrating that you are responsible.

I suggest you refrain from name calling since that just gives people more reason to believe that young people are immature. You can state your opinions and disagree with people without calling names.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Eric, it's important right now that you distinguish yourself from Kevin (Irwin).

You asked some questions and stated that you had an interest at some point in the future, specifically mentioning that owning a hot would happen when you were an adult AND had the experience needed to do so.

Kevin showed up, claimed to have a copperhead, that it wasn't dangerous in a clinical sense and that he "practiced" for owning a venomous reptile by handling a BURM.

I know that I, and I suspect Scott, think you have the proper attitude and approach. I still wouldn't let you anywhere near my venomous collection without your parents being in the same room the entire time and likely not even then. If you were to be bitten, I would be sued. I think it's important for anyone who's interested in herps to be encouraged but that has a limit. I wouldn't shove you into a pen with an eight foot gator, I wouldn't tell you to feed a croc monitor mice with your fingers and I wouldn't let you within ten feet of a rattler without some glass between you and it.

While venomous snakes and venomous keepers are not HerpGods or some elite group who's better than other keepers... the ones who keep their animals in a way which is safe and legal put a good deal of time and effort into being able to do so. Scott has actually written out an interesting piece (he might be kind enough to add a copy here) explaining how in Florida, someone's first venomous snake costs a year of their life and about ten grand. Or the equivalent in time and effort anyway, because of the way the permit system works down there.

Anyone who does keep venomous animals in a responsible manner has a vested interest in making sure that other people do the same thing. When uppity lawmakers and anti-pet trade activists start introducing stricter laws, the first and most easily targeted group of animals are those which are venemous. Despite the fact that the majority of venomous keepers are some of the most responsible and detail minded individuals to ever own a reptile, the public (who knows nothing about the hobby really) can easily vote to pass a law or elect a legislator that will make permits more and more difficult or even impossible to obtain. The kind of thing which REALLY sets off the anti-reptile crowds are people, especially kids, being hurt. There are hundreds of kids bitten by dogs every day but it generally only makes the news if nothing else happened and never goes beyond a local level. If Kevin were to be bitten by his copperhead (which certainly DOES need medical attention or he's going to end up with the nickname "Lefty") it would have to be reported to the hospital. The hospital is obligated to report significant injuries to the police when a child is involved, they or child protective services would investigate and they would find...

A minor... who watches the Crocodile Hunter... who got bit by his pet snake. It would be on TV and in every newspaper, no question. The result of that... "Won't someone please think of the children?!" and proposed bans on venomous snakes. Bans that would affect every reasonable, responsible individual who owns them.

If it comes right down to it, I don't really care what anyone else decides to do. Until it starts or has the potential to affect ME. I don't want to lose MY animals because HE went and did something ignorant.

Tanith... while I generally am directly opposed to warning labels that demand common sense (Do not use your hair dryer while sleeping), I think this thread shows fairly plainly that people have mistaken your suggestion for using similarly mannered nonvenomous species to learn restraint and handling techniques and taken it to mean "I owned a burm, so I'm ready for a copperhead." If all you *meant* to say was that using a hook on a rat snake will give someone a FEEL for how it's done and greater comfort when they approach a venomous animal, you might want to make that a bit clearer. If you truly think that someone playing around with a pair of tongs and a blood python is ready to own Bitis sp. well... That's a whole seperate discussion.

 

[snakekid13]

i would like to apologize to seamus and scott and i realize now after i have written the post that i had made a mistake and i would like to say im sorry since now that i read my post i feel humiliated and like a total dumbass and if you dont forgive me i understand and realize i reacted in being a total jerk and that i hope you guys can understand that the way you worded it made me kind of angry but anyways thats all i wanted to say

 

[Mustangrde1]

Accepted.

Eric please understand that critisisum is a very important learning tool. And as much one of the most important things is to listen and take what others tell you in and think about it. No good keeper of any living animal is or should be beyound the critisisum of their peirs. It is a healthy and good learning tool to be corrected when you make a mistake. When dealing with hots its better to be told by other keepers then the Doctor. If you have questions ask them and we will all help to the best we can.

Hell Tanith has corrected me as have others its not so much a matter of right or wrong or who's skills are better its about the animals and their best interest. That is what makes you a good keeper the ability to learn without taking things personally and putting the animals before your ego.

So ask away.

Seamus Im to tired to retype that entire thread on "Elite keepers" so here is a link
http://novogate.com/exco/thread.php?forumid=4503&threadid=57922

 

[snakegetters]

Originally posted by Seamus Haley
Tanith... while I generally am directly opposed to warning labels that demand common sense (Do not use your hair dryer while sleeping), I think this thread shows fairly plainly that people have mistaken your suggestion for using similarly mannered nonvenomous species to learn restraint and handling techniques and taken it to mean "I owned a burm, so I'm ready for a copperhead." If all you *meant* to say was that using a hook on a rat snake will give someone a FEEL for how it's done and greater comfort when they approach a venomous animal, you might want to make that a bit clearer. If you truly think that someone playing around with a pair of tongs and a blood python is ready to own Bitis sp. well... That's a whole seperate discussion. [/B]

What I actually said was that years of experience with a wide range of feisty, nasty nonvenomous snakes is excellent training for handling venomous snakes. If a handler is always totally comfortable, calm and unbitten while handling horrible tempered snakes of many different kinds, that's a very good starting point for handling hots.

But you have a good point, so I will consider slapping a standard "disclaimer for dummies" on the article stating that a few weeks of owning a burm does not mean you are qualified to keep cobras. Would you be interested in writing it?

 

[Mustangrde1]

Eric I see your in TX I know a few keepers there and if you can give me a major city near you i might be able to help put you in touch with a few keepers that can help you.