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good beginner venomous snake

I was typing simultaneously with others it seems so...

I am the one who would not let a fourteen year old near my venomous collection. I don't even keep anything which is really considered capable of a lethal envenomation if medical treatment is sought. There's a single EDB but that's about as potent as it gets.

The issue is a legal one and I stated that to explain why a fourteen year old might be turned away by keepers even if they are trying to learn.

I know of one example firsthand... There's a guy, great guy, intelligent, respectable, cautious and knows his herps inside and out, backwards and forwards who wanted Scott to help get him started with the handling practices. This kid was a few years older than you guys when he first expressed a desire for this kind of interaction and he was being extremely mature by asking to be taught rather than just finding the snake and keeping it with no training whatsoever. He had to wait. He is GLAD to wait until he turns eighteen because he reccognizes the seriousness of the potential negative consequences should a mistake be made while he was still a minor. When he does turn eighteen (or if he has reccently) he'll be THRILLED with the chance to fill water dishes, scoop feces and change bedding because it's all a part of turning "protocol" into "instinct" when it comes to safety.

I was keeping hots before I was 14. There are a lot of bright and responsible young people whom I'd trust with a hot a lot more than I would trust a lot of adults. Age is not the only predictor of either ability or maturity.
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No, but it certainly is important from a legal standpoint. The court of public opinion cares a great deal for it as well.

Further, these fourteen year olds keep wavering between "Respect my abilities!" despite not having any way of showing tangible or worthwhile experience and "Stop being mean, I'm just a kid!"

They can't have it both ways... either they approach the situation maturely and as adults and respect the right of others to disagree with their opinions on the subject... Ideally they might even pay attention and consider changing their minds but I'd frankly settle for simply accepting that there are people who's opinions on the matter differ greatly. Accepting frank and open discussion is the mature thing to do... Or they are treated as children, in which case they are simply told "No! Bad! No touch!" and I toy around with the idea of calling Virginia child protective services myself. The news story about a kid being removed from a dangerous situation wouldn't have the same negative impact as one where he was first hurt, then removed.

drug abusing, heavy drinking, tattoo covered, wife beating, macho 40 year old with a bigger ego than IQ
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Hmm... What do tattoos have to do with responsible hot keeping?

Heck, come to think of it, while it's clearly not a good thing, what does someone beating their wife have to do with their ability to keep venomous snakes in a safe and responsible manner?

Even drinking and potentially drug use really don't have a direct impact, unless someone handles WHILE drinking or drugging. That, of course is more a stupidity issue than an alchohol issue though, isn't it?

Working out some of your own issues as they relate to the public's opinion of herp keepers Tanith? Maybe taking up the sword for young teenagers because you feel a bit empathetic? I know you've had your problems with some of the hardcore old boys. You had to work hard to earn the respect and admiration you have gained... It's more valuable because of it though. Fight hard for something and it's precious... have it handed to you and it's worthless. These boys should have to work to earn the ability to keep hots, just as everyone else did.

There were venomous snakes in my house from the time I was around ten years old... My old man put them aside until my sister and I were old enough to listen when he told us not to even attempt to interact with them and, like Scott's setup, they had a locked room and individually locked cages with only one set of keys existing. I was allowed to begin learning how to approach them at a young age too... doesn't mean they were MINE though. I was not responsible for their care, I never handled them unsupervised and it was pounded in from a very early age that they were never handled when it wasn't important anyway.

A fourteen year old kid who's allowed to work with their parent's animals is a far cry from a fourteen year old kid owning a copperhead.

A fourteen year old kid who has a proper respect for the capabilities and an education about of the animals involved is a far cry from one who says he wouldn't need medical attention if envenomated.
 
Awe yes and that kid expressed a very straight forward view that he wanted to only learn about a very few specific hots and only wanted to work with those species. Which he has a standing offer for me to train him anytime. That being said before I would sign him off for his VRL I would insist he be monitored by another hot keeper to vouche for his abilities as I firmly believe that a single teacher can be bias to his student and that multiple teachers even if its only to reveiw are an important safety and learning tool for a potential keeper.

There is never enough knowledge to be past on to the up an comming generations of herpers be they hotheads or nonven keepers. And the older generations can certainly learn from the new generations.
 
I did it again...

Eric, I've got no problems with you or your approach whatsoever.

In fact, I really wish more people of any age shared it. Your statements early in this thread were pretty clear... you were interested in venomous snakes and were curious as to how to get started. No problems there whatsoever. I've got a problem with Kevin's approach but I think I've pretty well expressed what I feel about that and why.

Tanith, I fully agree that years of dealing with agressive species is a good starting place and wouldn't begrudge an experienced herper the ability to buy a hot without being directly trained.

I think we can ALL agree that experience is qualitative, not quantitative. There are people who have worked with these animals a fairly short time who's competence far exceeds that of others who have been doing it longer. Has to do with the intelligence of the person doing the experiencing and the oppurtunities avaliable to them I suppose. It's difficult to compress the learning one might be capable of into a set time frame... there is no cutoff point. Someone is not "experienced" or "ready" at exactly five or ten or fifteen years of keeping reptiles... But the more time devoted... really truly devoted... to learning everything that's possible every day for a good period of time... Yes, then I can see someone not needing to be an "apprentice hot keeper" Still would never EVER hurt... and I stand firmly by my statement that the best first venomous snake is one belonging to someone else... but I'll concede that there are individuals who I would trust with venomous species with no hesitation, prior experience or not. Not many... but a few.
 
Awe yes and that kid expressed a very straight forward view that he wanted to only learn about a very few specific hots and only wanted to work with those species. Which he has a standing offer for me to train him anytime
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:D The fact that you'll be getting a thousand hours worth of work that you'd otherwise have to pay someone to do has nothing to do with your standing offer though. :D
 
Mustang the major cities by me are Dallas and Ft.Worth and i agree with you Seamus about Irwin getting a copperhead but that is also not for me to decide it's his parents but I wish Irwin would sell the hot because now that i think about it thats pretty stupid because if he knew what a bite from a copperhead could do to the herp society it would probably cause even more laws and im afraid by the time im 18 venomous herp will be banned. "shivers" bad thought
 
well not very close richardson is in south east texas so lubbock isnt an option due to it not being close enough im still on the look for venomous keepers. The only person i know lives 3 houses down and their a bunch of bikers that know anything and they have a diamondback rattlesnake.
 
Seamus,

My first exposure to the non academic segment of the venomous keeping community was total culture shock. I ran into some people who pretty much fit all the scary stereotypes, and they were keeping snakes for all the wrong reasons. Those people do worry me. Yes, it's true that some decent and responsible people have lots of tattoos, or use recreational drugs or alcohol intelligently. It is also true that there are some people who fit the stereotypes because they are part of a subculture that encourages risk taking, irresponsible drug use and "macho" behavior. Those people scare me because they are not educated enough to care for the animals humanely or to deal with an envenomation.

Your personal speculations are a ways off base. It is the information that is important, not the egos or the personalities. When egos and personalities get in the way, people lose focus on the important things. I don't particularly want respect or admiration and I certainly don't work to earn it, particularly from any "good old boys". I prefer to be basically ignored on a personal level while only the actual information or issues are paid attention to.

I am sympathetic to young people because I remember being one, and because almost all of the young people I have met in this field have impressed me positively. I wish I could say the same for more of the adults.
 
Tanith.

That rattler I called you on you hit it on the head Broken ribs protruding causing a blockage. It has now been treated and hopefully soon it will be feeding on its own soon.

Thought you should know.
 
Another point on the drug issue - while I'm in favor of controlled legalization and I believe that some adults can responsibly use some drugs, currently recreational drugs are illegal.

That means that any venomous keeper who has illegal drugs on their premises puts the herp community at essentially the same risk for bad press as does a minor who keeps hots. The news headlines that would result from illegal drugs being found on the premises of a venomous keeper would be excellent ammunition for the folks in favor of banning private keeping.

I feel that it is a potential risk to the community to keep venomous reptiles and any kind of contraband in the same house. Eg, drugs, guns, etc. There is also a potential risk to the community when parents keep venomous reptiles in the house with minor children.

Rather than yell at keepers who enjoy smoking marijuana and tell them to quit, I would suggest that they smoke only when they are well away from their snakes. Rather than say to households containing minors that they should not keep venomous snakes, I suggest that they get educated and take stringent safety precautions. The "Just Say No" thing doesn't work so well in the real world, even if we wish it did. Suggesting safer alternatives is more practical and effective than commanding people to abstain.
 
I don't particularly want respect or admiration and I certainly don't work to earn it, particularly from any "good old boys". I prefer to be basically ignored on a personal level while only the actual information or issues are paid attention to.
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I've noticed this before. Modesty is all well and good, up to a point. At this stage, you have earned the respect and admiration, like it or not... By working towards the information, rather than towards gaining respect, you gained quite a bit more. If someone reccognizes your name though... and it makes them pause, even for a second or two and they listen to what you have to say when they might not have otherwise... isn't the respect worth it?

I am not suggesting that you become a rampaging egomaniac. Just that you do deserve credit for the work you have done and if you were to accept it a bit more openly, you might find the ability to do even MORE presents itself.

It's going a bit off track but... Years ago, people in the herpetocultural community started to get an inkling of who you were. There were rumblings, not all of them were positive. Today, because of the work you have done, that has changed and even those who disagree with you (by degrees, as I seem to from time to time or outright opposition, like pro-voiders) are forced grudgingly (or willingly) accept your expertise. The fact that you probably wouldn't use the term expert to describe yourself simply makes it even more obvious- only those who understand how much they don't know can truly understand how much they do.

You might not have any specific desires in any of these directions but... You have the website, which is widely regarded as among the best of it's kind to exist. That could easily springboard into magazine articles, books, television shows if you were so inclined. More exposure to you also means more exposure to your ideas. Taking credit for the work you have done and accepting the respect of others isn't identical to seeking the spotlight.
 
Mustangrde1 said:
Tanith.

That rattler I called you on you hit it on the head Broken ribs protruding causing a blockage. It has now been treated and hopefully soon it will be feeding on its own soon.

Thought you should know.
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Excellent. Remember that NeoCalGlucon is your (somehat expensive) friend when dealing with snakes who have broken bones.
 
Rather than yell at keepers who enjoy smoking marijuana and tell them to quit, I would suggest that they smoke only when they are well away from their snakes.
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I really only included it because some might compare the effects of certain illegal substances to those of perfectly legal alchohol or cigarettes and quite rightly.

I got over my "Outraged dissent and disobedience" phase a long, long time ago and currently feel that only those who OBEY a law that they dislike have the power to get it changed. People in massachusetts who think the law requiring a permit for a chondro is stupid (I'm among them) only have credibility in requesting that it be changed in they actually have the permits for the animals they own. Anyone circumventing the law really isn't feeling the effects of it and it's hypocritical of them to complain.

This, of course, is over generalized and minor issues of personal freedom. While a lot of drama can be loaded into a statement, a requirement for a permit to collect native species isn't the same as denying an ethnicity the right to vote.
 
Well the problem here, Seamus, is basically that I'm a strongly opinionated a$$hole with minimal social skills who prefers privacy to popularity.

I care about getting good information out there so that venomous snakes can get the treatment that they deserve. So I've ventured out far enough in public to do that. But this isn't a completely comfortable position for me.

My agreement with the press is that they will get lots of good pictures and information as long as I stay behind the cameras and not in front of them. That gets the important information out there without publicity baggage being hung around my neck like a dead albatross.

Maybe I could accomplish more if I were willing to be more of a social personality, but I don't think I could handle the consequences. I'd rather keep on quietly doing my thing and hoping that nobody really notices the person who is doing the thing. It's a Wizard of Oz trick - "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." LOL
 
On the drug issue again, I don't see how anyone who keeps a large number of venomous snakes can regularly drink or use drugs in serious quantity and be a responsible keeper. On any given day, the odds are fairly good that at least one snake is going to lay a big fresh wet one in the water bowl, where it should be removed immediately before that snake takes a drink. What do you do if you are under the influence and you walk into that situation? Your choices are to leave the snake in an unhealthy, unsanitary state, or to work with venomous snakes while drunk or drugged. Both are pretty bad choices.

I may have an occasional beer or glass of wine with dinner after a thorough cage cleaning session. I don't use any drugs but I would not condemn someone who had a small amount of marijuana under the same circumstances (preferably not on the same premises as the snakes). But getting frequently impaired to the point that you could not give responsible care to your snakes for many hours or days is not a good thing.

Maybe if you had an experienced handling partner living with you, and you took turns getting drunk? LOL That way there would always be a sober handler on call to deal with things like poopy waterbowls or veterinary situations.
 
Man, I go to bed, wake up with more 6 more pages

I am very sorry for saying that an agkistrodon c. contorix would not need medical assistance, seamus got me pretty upset, and I really wanted to get my point across. It's just that I know a guy that works in a pet store that has been bitten 4 x's on the right hand, and 2 x's on the left, and never walked into a hospital. I guess him giving me a fasle security on the consequences of a bite further proves what i said about the real venomous keepers not training young people, and only the much less experienced ones, that have no respect for the animals they're dealing with. As you have probably figured, I don't want to be trained by that person.

Seamus kept referring to a Kevin, I think he meant me, my name is Steven. I didn't say that i got my first pet burm, now I'm ready for copperhead. I said that I have practiced basic handling techniques on many non venomous snake, such as retics, burms, whitelips, atb's, etc. Not just a burm.

Seamus,

You got me pretty upset, and for that i must thank you. After you're little temper tantrum, that encouraged me even more to be the best herpetologist that ever lived. Then, everyone who has ever called me a little kid, with no respect for anything, will never ammount anything with his little pet snakes, will eat their words.
 
Steven. A word of advice do not worry about what people say or think about you or trying to be the "BEST EVER" instead listen to the words of people who obviously care and have genuine concern. Try to be the " Best " you can be to yourself. You will find in stiving for that goal greater satisfaction then trying to out do someone else.

I would never try to out do anyone when it comes to medical knowledge of reptiles yet I stive to be better for myself everyday and use several other persons with knowledge in reptile care as back up refferances. I am pretty good at it myself but would be a fool to think i ever know it all or even more foolish not to ask for others opinions.

One problem kids make and beleive it or not we were all kids one time is. That we let our emotions ingage long before our minds caught up to them. Even as adults some things still can set off the emotions and at that point we need to appolgise to those we offended and listen and think about the situation better. Maturity comes with age.

The person who keeps getting bitten would deffinately not be a good trainer as you have figured out. In fact im very suscpious of his truthfullness about how many bites if really any he has had. I can not speak for him as I do not know him but from experiance some people think being bitten is some badge of honor to brag about. Trust me it is not in fact it is the one thing any venomous keeper fights to prevent from happening.

If as i said to Eric it is your goal to someday becomming a hot keeper ask question. Except the answers as they are given to you then research it more. I can not tell you how many times ive gone over the same paper rereading information to better understand it. And remember The only stupid question is the one not asked!
 
Thanks for the advice, scott. About the guy and being bitten, I also think he thinks that the more he is bitten, the "cooler" he will be, I have seen him be bitten twice, and the other 4 x's I heard from people I know wouldn't lie.The venomous keepers that I look up to take every precaution there are to not be bitten, a practice I am also doing. Any help about finding another venomous keeper in VA would be greatly appreciated, as i have found nothing. I hope I didn't sound pompass when I said I wanted to the best ever herpetologist, but I really do want to be, lol. I wanted to make sure that I didn't come across as pompass, before seamus wrote 5 more pages about how I am so egotistical. I just have big dreams.
 
Steven. the most pompass person i know is Seamus and though it pains me to say it he is very good especially at antagonising people. Yet even through that his comments to tend to make people stop and think and thus begins a learning curve.

As for hot keepers in VA I do not know many up there so I would suggest finding the nearest Herp Society to you. More than likely someone knows someone. Just keep in mind it may take time to get to know them. I will ask a few friends in PA and NY that keep hots and see who they may know near you.

Remember this things you work long and hard for make it so much sweeter when you get to the goal.
 
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