• Responding to email notices you receive.
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    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

  • IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!! About the Google Adsense ads being displayed

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    Posted 08/15/2025
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    Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.

    Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."

    Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....

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    Addendum: 01/10/2026
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    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

Goodbye kingsnake.com

S

snakegetters

Aunty Venom
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My account on kingsnake.com was suspended because I stated that Ray Hoser's performing venomoid "surgery" with no anesthesia and no license to practice veterinary medicine was cruel and illegal butchery.

I have no intentions of asking them to reinstate it, even though I think they made a serious mistake in enforcing what they claim as their own terms of service. The quality of discussion on their forums has dropped considerably in the last year or so, possibly due to their policies on whom they choose to suspend or censor. I see no further point in participating there.

I am now looking for another hosting service for my web site. If you know of a server that will donate space for an educational site, please let me know.
 
I have no intentions of asking them to reinstate it, even though I think they made a serious mistake in enforcing what they claim as their own terms of service. The quality of discussion on their forums has dropped considerably in the last year or so, possibly due to their policies on whom they choose to suspend or censor. I see no further point in participating there.
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i feel the exact same way and my account was suspended after a lengthy thread which was ended by "eat me".
this thread came about due to the selective deletions of other peoples posts and many banned users.... funny thing is this happened some three or so months ago and not but a week ago i get an email in which they ask if i want to renew my kingsnake account LOL (which was suspended since my log on name was roo)
i sent them a nice responce back and said no
 
Kingsnake conversation quality has gone down, I agree.
On Fauna, you have much more flexibility, and can reasonably express your mind without being suspended, or restricted/censored and whatever else they do. Big upside here, CLASSIFIEDS ARE FREEEEEE!!!!!!
I think Fauna is the major Reptile board right now, with KS being expensive, and/or low discussion quality.
 
Copy of goodbye post

I expect this to be deleted from k.com, so here's a copy of my goodbye post on the venomous forum in response to a fellow asking me for vet advice.



I do have some suggestions for you on how to run some diagnostics that might help pinpoint what is wrong with your animal, but you will need to find a way to contact me in the future other than this site. My account was suspended because I spoke out a bit too freely against venomoid butchery, and I will no longer be participating here since these views are not welcome. I do not believe that I violated TOS by stating that venomoid "surgery" without anesthesia is illegal and inhumane butchery. Veterinary ethics and legal standards of animal cruelty are quite clear cut on this matter. But kingsnake.com disagrees, so I am participating in other venomous reptile forums these days.

I have become increasingly uncomfortable with what I believe is basically a pro-venomoid stance, and I no longer wish to be associated with any company that promotes the sale of venomoids. I ask that responsible keepers join me in requesting that the sites you participate on please stop supporting the illegal and inhumane creation and sale of "home hack job" venomoids.

The symptoms you are describing are potentially very serious and do need to be addressed. As always, the best course of action when seeking veterinary advice is to go directly to a veterinarian. You will find some suggestions on how to help make a veterinarian more comfortable with seeing your animals on my website.

Thanks, and it's been nice hanging out with the good folks here. I hope to see you again on forums that choose to uphold responsible and humane standards of venomous reptile herpetoculture.

Regards,
 
I'm just curious here, after reading up on the whole venomoid "problem" going on right now. I'm still biased, myself, and I have signed the venomoid petition.

I notice many people talk about backyard or garage venomoid hack jobs, but what about procedures done by professional veterinarians? Would that be bad as well?

What about venomoids used for education? I don't know if it is true or not, but I have heard recently that many schools will not allow venomous snakes in presentations, and will hire someone with a venomoid snake rather than one with an intact specimen.

I figured it would be best to ask about this on here, as I feel people here would be truthful and not delete messages like KS does. :)
 
I am tossing myself to the wolves here, but do we ABSOLUTELY NEED to have hands on venomous or venomoid snakes in a school? Is it really that important? If educators feel it is THAT important to show a live venomous snake for educational purposes, why not bring students to the snakes? There are thousands of small time "reptile zoos" with hots on display...
 
I forgot to add:

Tanith, banning you was definately the wrong thing to do. By banning you not only do they lose someone with your years and experience in the hobby to help out us "newbies", but the snakes themselves lose one more advocate for a good quality of life...
 
Whoa, TooManyBurmese, hold your horses.

Not once did I _ever_ say "Hands on" venomous or venomoid. Try reading the entire post next time, instead of assuming.

From what I have been told, it is becoming a common thing that schools soliciting reptile shows require venomoid snakes for "safety and insurance reasons" and the same goes for insurance companies providing insurance for Reptile Show providers.

Now back to answer your question, not every state (I'm guessing yours must have LOTS) has more than one serpentarium or reptile parks. Most said establishments are placed out in the boonies, where schools no longer have the money to pay for the gas/bus driver to go there. This is why they have Reptile Shows come to the schools. Its cheaper in the long run.

For instance. My state, WA, has ONE. Name it, ONE Serpentarium, which is not only in the middle of nowhere, but well, sucks since the owner decided not to quarantine, and managed to infect most of his snakes with Ophidian Paramyxovirus. Their collection was fairly small anyway.

Both the Zoos in Western WA have a meager collection of reptiles-mostly "easy" snakes to get, like burmese pythons, rattle snakes, and corn snakes. None of them have Pit Vipers, Naja, or other odd snakes aside from those commonly found in pet shops.

So tell me, how would a school provide a full education in snakes with these meager provisions? Here's your answer: Reptile shows.
 
I do reptile education, and I feel that it sends the wrong message to children and to the general public to use venomoids in shows. I use healthy, unmutilated animals and I show them to the children behind locked safety glass just as they would view them in a zoo. This sends the message that it is not okay to touch or handle venomous snakes, while still giving them the opportunity to view them up close and learn something positive from the experience. I don't do "stupid snake tricks" in front of kids, as this is really not the kind of behavior I want to model for young people. There is quite enough of that on television. Children have already been bitten trying to be like the Crocodile Hunter and pick up rattlesnakes by the tail.

When I do classes for adult professionals such as zookeepers and veterinarians who need to learn safe restraint techniques for medication and treatment, I work hands-on with a venomous snake while they work with a nonvenomous analogue species. The nonvenomous analogues are fresh wild caught and tend to be more of a challenge than the venomous snake I am working with, so the trainees get quite a workout without the danger of needing anything more than a bit of Neosporin.

I feel that this is a safe, humane and effective way to do reptile education without mutilating any snakes, and without sending a negative message to the kids. Some reptile educators (eg, Ray Hoser) freehandle venomoid snakes in front of children, and even permit the children to handle and touch the venomoid snakes. This is extremely irresponsible in my opinion, because there is still some risk that a venomoid snake may have enough gland tissue remaining either through imperfect surgery or through partial regrowth to deliver a significant envenomation.

Additionally it sends the message that it is okay or "cool" to handle venomous snakes. That is not something I would choose to teach children. Nor would I like to teach children that it is okay to cut pieces off of a dangerous wild animal so that it can be handled carelessly. I prefer to teach respect for venomous snakes, and good ethics about how animals should be treated.

Venomoid surgery by a licensed professional veterinarian using proper tools and pain relieving drugs is still a very serious, painful and crippling thing to do to a snake, but it is a better choice than the "home hack job" that dominates the venomoid market today. I do not believe that keeping them merely for pleasure would justify doing such a thing to an animal. A zoo with insurance woes and a high turnover rate in keepers might make this kind of decision.
 
I'm talking about if the venomoid in question has implants, and the only people who know it is venomoid are the teachers, staff, and insurance company-AND if the snake is not freehandled.

I personally do not agree with freehandling any venomous or venomoid snake-ever. Its just not worth the risk.
 
Originally posted by ChaosCat I'm talking about if the venomoid in question has implants, and the only people who know it is venomoid are the teachers, staff, and insurance company-AND if the snake is not freehandled.
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I agree that this would be the best policy. But under those circumstances, I would question why the snake has to be mutilated at all since it will be displayed only in a locked safety cage.

It might be difficult to shop insurance companies until you can find one that appreciates your safety protocols. But if you aren't willing to do that legwork, it's the animal that pays for your shortcut and your insurance discounts in blood and pain.

Personally I would be willing to do some insurance shopping legwork and pay more money long before I would be willing to hurt and cripple a snake. But of course some folks really don't care enough to do either.
 
How about if we take any discussion about venomoids and move it to the Venomous Snakes Discussion Forum instead of here, please.
 
I didn't mean that as a direct response to your post (about educational voids), but as a question directed to the broad "excuse" to why we "need" voids. In every argument I have seen about hots and voids (on several forums) I see that one point brought up.

I agree with all of Taniths posts so far (about not wanting to send wrong message and displaying then behind glass). Not that it matters what I think, but maybe it's nice to hear :)

Your point about reptile shows is a great one! I never would have thought of that! Not that I am going to be doing an educational hot exhibit :)
 
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