Gregory Bowman aka thedietcokeguy Inquiry

[Thedietcokeguy]

Darren; is it relevant that I don't sell snakes?

 

[Darin Chappell]

Gregory,

There is no reason for you to be so defensive. I wasn't accusatory toward you in any way. Your writing was intially misleading (unclear), and all I asked was for clarification.

You also need not be condescending toward us. Most of us are fully aware of what constitutes a breeding loan, and, may I add, there is usually not a transference of funds BEFORE a purchase of one of the breeders is made. Hence the confusion.

I do wonder why you were so quick to assume that I was pointing a finger at you, though. You DID say that if any of us had questions for you all we had to do was ask. And you did neglect to answer those two questions the first time they were asked of you (one by myself and the other by someone else), even though you addressed what you could not address about Steve and Neil in great detail.

So, all I can say is, "Thanks for the clarification," and I wonder why you're so terse for the asking for it!

 

[Darin Chappell]

Gregory,

The relevancy is one of credibility.

If you say "I don't sell snakes" but then you say "I bought one and thought it was the wrong sex, and I had already taken money for it," those appear to be completely incompatable statements from the onset.

Now, you have explained what it is that you meant, and I am perfectly happy to take your word for it. However, what if it had been different? What if you had been lying over something as innocuous as whether you sell snakes or not? No big deal, right?

Except that it would have called EVERYTHING else you had previously posted into question. When that is combined with the fact that there is documentation you claim to have but are not free to post, what should we all believe THEN?

Then, you went on and on in obvious detail talking about things that you could not discuss, but the two little insignificant questions you HAD been asked went unacknowledged. It left a little doubt in my mind, to be certain!

Again, I have no problem with you, except that you jump the gun in defensiveness a bit too early for my taste. But, hey, everything is fine as far as I'm concerned. You explained it all.

 

[Thedietcokeguy]

Darin,

Firstly; sorry for the misspelling of your name in previous post.

Im sorry if I am frustrated by this line of irrelevant questioning.

Some questions I havent answered only because I may have not felt them pertanent to this thread.

Ask me any questions you have and I will try and answer them all clearly. You took this breeding loan from an email sent to Markevich which outlined the fact that I HAVE had great experience with good people and admit sometimes miscommunication can occur. and can be resolved by both parties. Why not point that out? Doesnt it show that I have been reasonable with others?

Why must I defend myself for admitting I have had great experiences with most people ive purchased snakes from?

Mitch from Diamond: Great guy; helped me with the injury to the snake and I asked nothing of him other than a query as to why the snake had a horrible injury; a result of a horny burmese. Logical and solved without any problems.

Regarding Adam, the gentleman who sold me the female blood; I probed the snake and my probe vanished inside her; YES, I had worries it was a male since I purchased a proven female for $460. Thats a lot to pay for a blood. BUT what a blood! I was shocked by the probing. I informed him. Adam was kind enough to send me a photo of her curled around eggs. I can assure you this snake probes totally male. Was I alarmed? Yes, since I had my client/friend to deal with since he wanted babies and I agreed to find a female and breed them. Wouldnt you be worried? Adam was great and I thanked him for his patience with me. He did admit even the previous owner thought the snake was male too; she probes male.

Jay Eaton at Exotic Jungle; absolutely great guy and terrific products and service.

George at Gem; great snakes very professional

Kevin at Densite reptiles; great bloods and great shipper

Susan at Ssnakes; WHAT A GREAT LADY; the best shipper and most professional; I can't say enough about her.

Tim at Maddreptiles; WOW! beautiful bloods and great pricing.

Teresa and Mike Keene; very attentive; nice snakes, wonderful service.

Matt at Lizards of Oz; Very nice geckos indeed. Very professional.

Tom Baker; Great snakes; granite burms that were so clean and healthy.

And for those I didnt mention; Shawn, Tim, Kimberly, and others, you all have sold me great snakes. I appreciate your time and consideration.

If this isnt clear; please let me know.

Sincerely

Gregory Bowman

 

[Ken Harbart]

Okay, let's clarify a few things from a legal perspective...

1) Yes, shipping snakes via USPS is illegal. The most common penalty handed out for this infraction- a letter from the Postmaster General to chastise the offender. There have been instances where a misdemeanor charge was filed, but they are extremely rare.

2) Is it illegal to ship pimbura across sate lines without a CBW license? This is a gray area. While this subspecies is often considered to be invalid (and is clarified in CITES Appendix I), the ESA makes no clarification as to whether or not the pythons of Sri Lanka are included as Python m. molurus.

Let's assume, for a moment, that they are covered by the ESA. In making this post, Greg would be admitting that he's an accessory to the very crime that he's accusing Steve of. After all, it is the buyer's responsibility to obtain the CBW license- not the seller's. In this regard, he would be just as culpable of the crime, assuming one has been committed.

As for the claim that they're Appendix I (which they are), this has absolutely no bearing as CITES does not apply to interstate commerce- hence the name "Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora." As long as you and I reside in the same country, we can ship Appendix I species back and forth all day, and CITES has no applicability.

3) The pending lawsuit- If I read correctly, you were offered a full refund, which you chose to decline. The vet treatment, while noble on your behalf, was elective. In any jurisdiction, the only compensation you would be entitled to is the cost of the real property (snake) you purchased that was defective.

4) Extortion- I fail to see anything in the emails that fits the legal definition of extortion. Legally, extortion is defined as, "the obtaining of money or property (including property rights) from another, with [the owner’s] consent, where such consent is induced by the wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear." However, I will admit to only giving the emails a cursory glance, so I may have glanced over it.


Don't get me wrong- I am not taking sides on this matter- IMO, there isn't a single one of the three primaries who can say that he's exclusively "in the right." Additionally, it seems that all have chosen to handle this matter emotively than logically.

Merely, my reply is to clarify certain legal considerations.

 

[Thedietcokeguy]

More email from Steve Markevich:

Preface: he was informed on Jan 31 and aknowledged the detailed explaination that he needed CITES 1 DMA certs to ship.

He knowingly wrote to me saying that there is no need AFTER learning he needed permits.

He even went to the extreme of trying to convince me by sending me an OLD, 1999 CITES list; not current as he claims in his email; asserting its fine to ship them without permits again YESTERDAY after being informed repeatedly that he did need them. He notes page 19 showing no listing of them yet doens't note in his email that the first page of the document states. Current 1999.

If anyone wants the attachment to this email to show he sent a NOT CURRENT CITES list, please let me know: i will forward it to all.

Sending me a document that is four years stale is misleading and implies fraud when he was informed on the 31 of January of the status.

If he argues that he is confident and repeats his assertion for days; why did he post his question on the python forum ONLY after I told him I could NOT ship the snakes back for fear of violating federal law? CLEARLY his revisionist history shows he is still trying to dupe me by sending old documents labeling them current, and informing me he has special knowledge of permits.

Subj: Current Endangered species list
Date: 2/2/03 4:55:35 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
File: 50cfr_animals.pdf (220184 bytes) DL Time (46667 bps): < 1 minute
Sent from the Internet (Details)




Gregory,

I have no doubt that Sri-Lankan Pythons can be shipped across state lines my posting was simply a question and the answers recieved I wasn't going to argue.
Attached is a current listing of all the listed Threatened and Endangered species that are federally protected. See page 19 and you will see Python m. pimbura is not listed as being protected.

Steve Markevich

Serpent's Den
Carbon Plaza Mall
Route 443
Lehighton, PA 18235
Tel. (570) 386-8122
E_MAIL [email protected]
WEBSITE www.serpentsden.com


Gregory Bowman

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Greg,

I am not going to comment on the Steve issue, but on the Neil issue.
1) you received the snake.
2) you say you were not happy with said snake.
3) Neil offered you a full refund, and told you to ship the animal back.
4) you refused to send the animal back.
5) your done. Regardless of what you think you closed the deal by refusing to return the snake. There is not a court in the US that will find for you in a case like this. They will see there is no breach of contract. YOU decided to keep the snake and therefore you took FULL responsibility for said snake. I can tell you this. Be prepared for counter suit by Mr. Gubitz if you do file such a claim. I can put money that Neil will not only be vindicated from your accusations, but can and will win his counter suit. He can sue you for all his expenses i.e Lawyer,Airline,hotel, his time, and any other general expenses that might incur from any law suit you may file. It seems to me that you are an intelligent person and would be better off looking at the situation with a clear head. You will see you are the only one to blame now for anything that you do not like on that snake. You accepted the responsibility. If your attorney has advised you to pursue this action, I would suggest you get another consultations from a different better attorney as you do not have a leg to stand on.

 

[Darin Chappell]

I want to echo what Rob said there about the situation with Neil. I too believe (as I have already stated in this thread), that while you may very well have been a wonderful humanitarian in your actions regarding the snake, I cannot see how in the world you expect a judge to award damages to you for what you decided to take upon yourself, knowing full well that Neil was not in favor of you taking the animal to your vet. Reimbursement of the original $200.00 is all I can see you being awarded. In my opinion, of course.

I also want to echo and emphasize waht Rob said about the possibility of a counter suit from Neil. Obviously, I cannot speak for Neil, but knowing his temper, I would say that the certainty of a counter suit is maybe just slightly less than that of the sun rising tomorrow morning!

But, hey, you do what you have to do. It would be interesting to see what a representative of modern jurisprudence would do with a vein-popping Gubitz in his courtroom . . .that's for certain!

 

[Ken Harbart]

Greg,
It appears that you have a misunderstanding of CITES. It does not apply to interstate commerce.

Please provide a cite to whatever lead you to believe that it does.

 

[Thedietcokeguy]

Ken;

Since you are stating you are making a legal clarification; I would ask if you are an attorney and if so are you practicing in Florida, PA, or California.

If you are not an attorney; providing legal advise MAY be illegal in your state.

Respectfully, I must disagree based on the information as provided by US FISH AND WILDLIFE who is investigating this matter. CITES is a designation of the status as an abbreviation of what you have stated; However; according to the DMA, the Lacey Act, which is clearly posted here describes interstate shipping of CITES 1 species. CITES 1 is the designation; the DMA manages domestic permits based on species status; you are wrong in assuming you can ship CITES 1 species across state lines without permits according to the Lacey Act (1987).

In my post, you will find I clearly stated I was informed after receiving the snakes of their status. I have no special knowledge, imputed, or expressed that would allow me to know this detail. Clearly, as Mr. Markevich has represented he has experience with permits for his Indian pythons, and tortoises, he does have special knowledge and is in the business of selling reptiles; I am not.

He further asserted there is no need for permits repeatedly and went to extremes to convince me. CLEARLY this is intentional misprepresentation given he was given the answer before his emails to me indicating that INDEED he did need permits; go to kingsnake.com and look under python forum to view his post and answers.

To say he is mistaken or ignorant is not accurate; he was informed by myself after the fact, by others and by documents sent (LACEY ACT) that indeed he violated it. He continued misrepresentatins after recieiving this information. I will not site the statue that constitutes fraud; I am sure you can find it.

Clearly, I made it clear to him I was not willing to violate the law by shipping the snakes back after being informed they were CITES 1. Clearly it shows I did not, as he did, break the law for the sake of profit. Clearly I informed him why I could NOT ship them back without an OK by Fish and Wildlife.

I cannot comment on the extortion other than to say a criminal investigation is ongoing. However, if you contact Mitch at Diamond Reptile, Jay at Exotic Jungle, you will find Mr. Markevich contacted them regarding me with apparent intent to defame me as was the generation of this thread. Please note WHEN he started it, and how he communicated with Neil Gubitz before doing so; clearly there is an agenda here.

Here is his email stating special knowledge and misrepresenting the facts; Please read it carefully.


Subj: Re: Sri Lankan Pythons
Date: 1/31/03 5:48:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)




Gregory,

Like you said the price was negotiated before this issue. Indian Pythons (Python m. molurus) require that the recipient and not the shipper have a captive bred wildlife permit. Sri-Lankan Pythons (Python m. pimbura) are fine to ship accross state lines. I know this cause I held a USDI Captive Bred Wildlife Permit for many years for Indian Pythons & Radiated Tortoises.
I don't think taking a few pictures of the snakes in their "Hospital Cage" are going to hurt them in any way so please send me pictures.
Insurance on the package has nothing to do with any of this. I gave you a 100% Satisfaction and Live Delivery Gaurantee and if they arrived dead I would have taken responsibility and you could have returned them for a 100% full refund including cost of shipping them back.
The only claim that can be made with the USPS is getting a refund on the cost of shipping $53.45 which I would have to do on this end.

Steve Markevich

Serpent's Den
Carbon Plaza Mall
Route 443
Lehighton, PA 18235
Tel. (570) 386-8122
E_MAIL [email protected]
WEBSITE www.serpentsden.com


HERE YOU WILL FIND HIS LETTER SENT TO ME SHOWING HIS ACTIONS BASED ON HIS THREATS TO ME IF I WERE TO MAKE ISSUE OF THIS AND NOT SHIP THE SNAKES BACK.

Subj: Re: Steve, need to hear from you today
Date: 2/2/03 1:23:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)




Gregory,

I been keeping records of our communications and already answered your previous e-mail and didn't get a reply with pictures that I've asked for that you said you would send me the day of delivery. I ask again SEND ME PICTURES!!!!
I've corresponded with Mitch from Diamond Reptile and Neil from Tampa Snake Pit. I asked both of them about your business transactions. This is one reply I got this come from Neil Gubitz.

Steve.... I only have WebTV, and I can't read "word" attachments, they
have to be jpegs.... but, it doesn't matter.... Gregory Bowman IS FULL
OF ****!!.... He bought a light-phase burm from me that was in perfect
shape.... he gets it in, and immediately starts telling me the snake
wasn't a light phase because it darkened right up when he took it out
(bull****!), then, he tells me that the snake has a URI and he was
taking it to the vet.... I told him to just send the snake back and I
would refund his $200 he paid for it (it was 6' long).... he tells me he
doesn't want to stress the snake out by shipping it back, I let it
go.... then I get an email later on saying that he wants me to pay him
$1000!!!! to pay for the vet and the useless $60 snake (it was a normal
burm, remember.... his words).... I ask him to send me pictures of the
snake??.... The next thing I get was a PAYPAL SUMMONS that they were
made aware of this possible FRAUD and my case was under
investigation??.... About a month after that, PayPal tells me that they
don't get involved when it's only over what someone EXPECTED!!.... I
never spoke or emailed paypal in that whole month.... I laughed my ass
off!!.... Then I get a letter from his lawyer about a couple of weeks
ago saying basically the same thing about the $1000.... yeah,
right!!.... Screw that idiot!.... He ain't getting a DIME out of
me!!....
How's that???

....Neil %>))

Apparently people are selling you perfectly healthly animals and you are trying to make false claims.



Steve Markevich

Serpent's Den
Carbon Plaza Mall
Route 443
Lehighton, PA 18235
Tel. (570) 386-8122
E_MAIL [email protected]
WEBSITE www.serpentsden.com


I cannot comment on the criminal part of this issue but I am confident you will see that when someone tells you to keep your mouth shut or else, ship the snakes back, don't tell the Post Office, and knowingly misrepresents factual information that has been provided to him with the intent to cause another to commit a crime that is inticement with conspiracy to commit; a felony.

With regard to GUBITZ; he agreed not to ship the snake after I told him it was unethical to do so knowingly. Animal cruelty laws do prohibit intentional harm by neglegence or intentional conduct in an act that harms or kills an animal in your posession. He did violate these laws by admitting his knowledge of risk to the snake. By shipping a sick snake knowingly understanding it will harm or kill it; this is a criminal act. Please refer to your local SPCA for information on animal cruelty statutes in your state.

Regarding your other comments; I will refrain from answering for it serves no purpose other than speculation and your assertions have no basis in law. Rather, they are supposition. I will not argue it; that belongs in the courts.

Gregory Bowman

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Darin and Ken.... Oh how right you are!!.... but, did you have to give him advance warning??.... I've been sitting here laughing out loud at some of this stuff.... oh yeah.... one question though.... do they allow PayPal for "commessary"??.... I might be in for 10-20!!.... lmao

Gregory, you're really laughable.... oh, wait a minute.... you have SUSAN SMITH as your lawyer, don't you???.... What a GREAT legal strategy!!.... you can always plead INSANITY!!.... ROFLMAO

BTW.... Here's a stupid question for you, Greg.... which NOBODY has picked up on yet.... if you didn't want to send STEVE'S snake back USPS because it was illegal and a Federal crime.... WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST SEND IT BACK UPS, OR FEDEX, OR AIRBORNE, OR DELTA????.... seeing how anal you are, you probably said to yourself.... "Well, I'm certainly not going to spend $35 to ship HIS snake back when it only cost him $12 to ship it to me!!.... You're a joke!

Seeya in court, buddy!.... bring your wallet!!

....Neil

 

[Thedietcokeguy]

I would like comments from those who think its legal to ship a knowingly sick snake? If you look at animal cruelty laws you will find that it is indeed illegal.

For those who are saying Neil offered me a refund by shipping the snake back; you are suggesting I commit a crime.

I think the board will accurately reflect I am not a criminal nor would I intentionally commit a crime. I do know that under the circumstances I could very well be charged for animal cruelty if I did ship the snake back to Neil regardless of my feelings that animals should not be killed for profit sake.

What all of you FAIL to read is where Neil agrees that the snake should not be shipped back after I brought this to his attention.

WHY Do you twist this against me when its clearly stated in his email?

"As you said.... it would be ridiculous to send it
back...."

Read below.


Subj: Re: burm
Date: 11/26/02 6:41:54 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)



Greg.... I just don't understand what could have happened?? If you look
at the picture from the ad (I'll give a link to it below), check the
color in the picture, and then check the scale count, or whatever you
want and you will see it's the SAME SNAKE??? He NEVER changed from the
color in the picture when he was in my care.... and, as I told you, he
ate a small RABBIT two days before I shipped him.... you even agreed
that you would NOT hold me to my live arrival guarantee??? Do you
remember that?? To be honest... I'm really not thrilled with your
insinuations concerning this snake.... I've never ignored your emails,
as so many others would, and I've NEVER lied to you! As far as *I* was
concerned.... IT IS a light-phase! It never changed color for me??? As
far as the RI.... there was no sign of it when he was here??? Heck, he
JUST ATE??? You know as well as I that he WON'T eat with an RI??? Like I
said in the beginning.... I would never shirk MY responsibilities for
ANY reason.... if you think I would ruin my reputation over a lousy
$200, you're crazy.... but, this isn't about money with me (in this
instance).... I HONESTLY know I sent you a healthy light-phase burm,
that had eaten??? I still feel it was because of the stress of the trip
after just having a good meal.... you KNOW it was packaged very well,
with TWO 40-hour heat packs in a styrofoamed-lined NEW box???
Tell you what.... since I really don't think I did anything wrong....
but, I don't like unhappy customers.... it cost me close to $50 to ship
that to you, so you basically paid $150 for the snake.... would you
accept $50 refund to help incur the vet costs, thereby you only spent
$100 on the snake, and that, you can easily get back if you sell him....
as far as the illness.... I'm sorry for the snake, but, I truly feel it
was as aforementioned.... let me know, and I'll PayPal you
immediately.... As you said.... it would be ridiculous to send it
back....


Neil never paid even the $50 for the vet costs. I never agreed to a NON LIVE delivery! Thats just insane. Would you?

SO please, stop telling me that:

1. I could ship the sick snake back; California law prohibits it.
2. Neil offered to refund all my money; he didnt.
3. Neil paid the $50 he promised; He didnt.
4. Neil said to ship the snake back; he did until I told him it would be unethical for me to. read above his comment "As you said.... it would be ridiculous to send it
back...." agreeing.

For all who condone this kind of unethical animal cruelty to air ship a sick snake and break animal cruelty laws; PLEASE; if you want to break the law, knowingly injure or kill helpless animals, THATS YOUR PROBLEM; but I will not be a part of unethical, and in my opinion, immoral behavior .......ALL FOR THE SAKE OF MONEY.

After telling Neil I would not kill a helpless snake for profit sake; this is the email he sent me:

Subj: Re: (no subject)
Date: 12/10/02 7:34:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)



Send the snake back and you'll get your $200 that I guarantee.... Your
threats don't phase me a bit! You sound like a child the way you're
handling this!

....Neil %>))


This clearly shows he disregards the condition of the snake for profit sake.

If I am a child for doing the right thing; so be it. I was taught not to break the law and not to hurt animals.


Shame on all of you who condone profit over care and concern.

Gregory Bowman

 

[Thedietcokeguy]

Again; you will see that Neil Gubitz posts never show any concern for the welfare of the snake. His rhetoric is faulty; shipping, via USPS or other means, of CITES 1 species across state lines is illegal. Does he care? obviously not.

Neil; you really do show what a horrible person you are with name calling, berrating and your entire focus on money.

I am glad for one thing; that at least the sick normal burmese you shipped me has a better home and got proper medical care. Regardless the cost.

Gregory Bowman

 

[Ken Harbart]

if you didn't want to send STEVE'S snake back USPS because it was illegal and a Federal crime.... WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST SEND IT BACK UPS, OR FEDEX, OR AIRBORNE, OR DELTA???

In his defense Neil, it is because he erroneously believes that it is illegal to ship an Appendix I animal across an interstate border without permit.

Although he has a misconception about that aspect of the law, his concern is still a valid one, as those snakes may or may not be covered by the ESA.

I am personally of the opinion that the pythons of Sri Lanka are not distinct enough from mainland molurus to warrant subspecific classification. The problem with enforcement of the ESA is that it does not clarify whether or not, for purposes of the Act, that pimbura is synonymous with molurus. As I stated though, I personally don't feel that Sri Lankans are distinct enough, and would require an out-of-state buyer to obtain a CBW license.

 

[Thedietcokeguy]

Ken;

Respectfully I am repeating what was told to me by US FISH AND WILDLIFE Inspector Strong and verified by the DMA.



Lacey Act Amendments of 1981 (P.L. 97-79, 95 Stat. 1073, 16 U.S.C. 3371-3378, approved November 16, 1981, and as amended by P.L. 100-653, 102 Stat. 3825, approved November 14, 1988, and P.L. 98-327, 98 Stat. 271, approved June 25, 1984) These amendments repealed the Black Bass Act and sections 43 and 44 of the Lacey Act of 1900 (18 U.S.C. 43- 44), replacing them with a single comprehensive statute. Under this law, it is unlawful to import, export, sell, acquire, or purchase fish, wildlife or plants taken, possessed, transported, or sold: 1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law. The law covers all fish and wildlife and their parts or products, and plants protected by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species and those protected by State law. Commercial guiding and outfitting are considered to be a sale under the provisions of the Act. Felony criminal sanctions are provided for violations involving imports or exports, or violations of a commercial nature in which the value of the wildlife is in excess of $350. A misdemeanor violation was established, with a fine of up to $10,000 and imprisonment of up to 1 year, or both. Civil penalties up to $10,000 were provided. However, the Criminal Fines Improvement Act of 1987 increased the fines under the Lacey Act for misdemeanors to a maximum of $100,000 for individuals and $200,000 for organizations. Maximum fines for felonies were increased to $250,000 for individuals and $500,000 for organizations. Rewards are authorized for information leading to arrests, criminal convictions, civil penalties, or the forfeitures of property, and for payment of costs of temporary care for fish, wildlife, or plants regarding a civil or criminal proceeding. Strict liability is established for forfeiture of illegal fish, wildlife or plants, and marking requirements for shipments of fish and wildlife must conform to modern commercial practices. Those enforcing the Act are authorized to carry firearms, make qualified warrantless arrests for felony and misdemeanor violations of any law of the U.S. when enforcing the Act, search and seize under Attorney General guidelines, issue subpoenas and warrants, inspect vessels, vehicles, aircraft, packages, crates, and containers on arrival in the United States from outside the United States or prior to departure from the United States. Amendments to the humane shipment provisions of Title 18 required the Secretary of the Interior to issue regulations governing such activity. As amended May 24, 1949, 18 U.S.C. 42 (63 Stat. 89, September 2, 1960; P.L. 86-702; 74 Stat. 753; and November 29, 1990, P.L. 101-646, 104 Stat. 4772) prohibits importation of wild vertebrates and other animals listed in the Act or declared by the Secretary of the Interior to be injurious to man or agriculture, wildlife resources, or otherwise, except under certain circumstances and pursuant to regulations.

Ken maybe a good read will clarify your error.


"Under this law, it is unlawful to import, export, sell, acquire, or purchase fish, wildlife or plants taken, possessed, transported, or sold: 1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law. The law covers all fish and wildlife and their parts or products, and plants protected by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species and those protected by State law. "

I would urge you to refrain from supposition based on your experience and not from fact.

Gregory Bowman

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

I will be contacting USF&W DMA tomorrow to get a direct clarification on the shipping of the Sri Lankan's. I will post exactly what they tell me tomorrow. But so you are aware shipping of C.I.T.E.S. app.II animals is legal (depends on the species) without any permits or documentation required. Take the Egyptian Tortoise for example. It is an App II animal, but it is 100% legal to ship it across state lines with absolutely NO permit requirements.
On the Neil issue, he was not trying to get you to ship the snake back to him for profit. He as well as myself and many dealers will not refund money or send a replacement animal unless we are assured the animal in question is sick or D.O.A. If you say it is against California Statues to knowingly ship a sick animal then fine you can not ship the animal back to him. But he shipped the animal to you, and at the time it showed NO signs of an Upper Respiratory Infection. As a matter of fact he even stated that the animal just ate. In case you and anyone else does not know just about every snake that has an URI will refuse to eat. If this animal has a URI case to the extent you are saying (which I doubt) it would not have eaten if it had URI before it was shipped.

 

[Thedietcokeguy]

Additionally Ken;

If you read the current CITES listing. you will find that Pimbura was added in 2001.

Sorry but all your supposition of taxonomy is a moot issue.

Gregory Bowman

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Greg

Unless you have an attorney that has given you a different interpretation:

"1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law."

I would interpret this passage as prohibiting transportation or sale only if the animal has been obtained illegally (i.e stolen or smuggled) or does not have the required paperwork. If you haven't as of yet, you might check with an attorney before you pursue this particular point.

As to the assertion of animal cruelty, you are really pushing the envelope. While i applaud your high ethical stance, I seriously doubt that shipping an animal with a cold would constitute animal cruelty.

In essence, Steve shipped against postal regs...period. Definitely his bad. Both vendors offerred to refund your original purchase and you declined. While you did this out of compassion and care for the animals (laudable) as someone very succinctly put it earlier in this thread " you bought yourself a couple of snakes."

My suggestion on this is to sit back, take several deep breaths, and pony up for an hour of an attorney's time before you waste a lot of time and energy on legal action that does not appear to have much merit

my (non-lawyer) .02

 

[gila7150]

In my post, you will find I clearly stated I was informed after receiving the snakes of their status. I have no special knowledge, imputed, or expressed that would allow me to know this detail.

But you keep and even breed pythons. In fact your expertise led your client to place pythons in your care for breeding purposes.

To say he is mistaken or ignorant is not accurate; he was informed by myself after the fact, by others and by documents sent (LACEY ACT) that indeed he violated it.

After the fact....so at the time he committed the "crime" he was as ignorant of the law as you were when you received the snake (breaking the same law).
When is ignorance of the law a defense?

If you are so intent on letting this issue be settled in court....why do you keep returning to the BOI for reassurance?
In case you need more evidence...I have video of Neil jaywalking outside of the Tampa show last year
Chris Raden

 

[marginata81]

Just because an animal is CITES 1, that does not mean that a CBWF permit is needed for it to cross state lines. You can freely ship Egyptian Tortoises and Flat Tailed Tortoise, both of which are CITES 1, across state lines no questions asked. Just though I would help clear that up. I am not sure on the U.S. policy towards the Sri Lanken Python.

Justin Dotterer