Bad Guy Harlequin Hoard

[Lucille]

As far as the "breach of TOS" - one can put any terms one wants there; but that doesn't make them legally binding. Ultimately, it is the relevant business law that rules supreme.

The Uniform Commercial Code governs sales of goods in most states. Unless the terms are unconscionable, parties may in fact agree to terms that will vary UCC protection and the agreement will be legally binding- for instance, they can agree to disclaim warranty, a very important protection.
In some circumstances there are rules as to how that is done, for instance a car that is sold 'as is' might have to have that information in some states, in certain size letters and certain information included.

 

[leftycrane]

I had only heard good things about the seller in the past and while they may have had perfect transactions with her, mine was not. I am not calling into question others' experience as buyers but was put in a very unfortunate position by the seller.

The only reason yours was not a stellar transaction was because you made it such. You had a buyers remorse purchase and are trying to weasel out of it. Sorry about you luck.

 

[Jaybee]

One more person adding in to say that temps do affect growth and it is normal. I am geographically pretty close to the Harlequin Hoard and my growth rates are pretty much what she sees, possibly a bit faster as I do supplement insects once weekly, but still slow through winter. I note often that people who live outside of our frozen tundra do seem to have faster growth. If weight was a big issue it probably should have been clarified before purchase.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

I have always thought it quite silly that people use weight to guage the readiness to breed or quality of an animal. Unless an animal is emaciated or unhealthy in another way( which is something that is noticeAble visually) there can be many reasons for fluctuations in weight and growth rates. When an animal is ready to breed it's ready. Males are fertile and females ovulate weight doesn't matter and it won't stunt growth. It will actually duplicate their natural growth rates in the wild. There is no magical fairy chaperone that gets in between two geckos in the wild if they don't make weight at their imaginary pre copulation weigh in. Geckos grow at different weights. And it is quite unnatural for geckos in nature to grow as fast as they do in captivity. It is also very natural for them to breed at weights far lower than the standards us human keepers have set for them. I have never weighed an animal in my collection and I never will. It is a marketing tool. The animals don't care how much they weigh. If an animal has a problem genetically or physically that stunts growth or falls below a reasonable growth rate you don't need to know. It is quite obvious. Don't know what the reason for buyers remorse but backing out after having someone hold an animal for months is not right. Is it because it's a male and you don't need it???

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Geckos grow at different weights

Geckos grow at different rates.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

If an animal has a problem genetically or physically that stunts growth or falls below a reasonable growth rate you don't need to know.

If an animal has a problem genetically
Or physically that stunts growth or falls below a reasonable growth rate you don't need weight to know.

 

[sleepofapples]

I see three problems here.
1.) The buyer failed to inquire about the age of the gecko prior to the transaction.
This is not Margaret's fault. As a seller, one cannot possibly guess what information will be relevant or important to the buyer. If the buyer fails to ask for a particular piece of information prior to purchase, that failure is not the responsibility of the seller. If the age/weight ratio was important to the buyer, then it should have been mentioned prior to money changing hands.
2.) The buyer violated the TOS agreed upon through the purchase of the animal.
Reptile sales have become a tricky thing lately through transactions much like this. A sellers TOS are supposed to protect them from fraud, loss of product, loss of sales, and provide the buyer with terms to refer to in the event of a problem. If you do not agree to how someone has structured their business practices, then it is probably best to decline to do business in the first place. The Terms of Service in question are thorough, transparent, and fairly consistent with what many other breeders use. Agreeing to the TOS by making a purchase and then disputing them later is contrary to how businesses work. Say you purchase an item from a brick and mortar store that does not issue refunds. You decide you don't want the item. The store has no obligation to issue you a refund if it is stated in their policy. This is basically the same situation. The buyer purchased the item under those terms and disputing them by reversing the payment in paypal puts them in violation of the terms they agreed to.
3.) The buyer does not think that the animal is growing at a "normal" rate.
This is perhaps the flimsiest part of the buyers claim. To my knowledge, no scientific study has been made to determine the "normal" growth rate of a crested gecko. Factors such as diet, temperature, genetics, and individual physiology have effects on how rapidly a gecko develops. Yes, you can powerfeed protein and fat and probably reach a higher weight at a faster rate if you prefer. It has not in any way been proven that this is any more beneficial to the animal than feeding a lower protein diet and allowing the gecko to develop at a slower rate. Until someone does a large scale study concerning the average rate of growth while controlling for diet, temperature and genetics, this is an invalid argument. I have been breeding crested geckos for roughly 10 years and have found that growth rates vary depending on the specific animal. I currently have a beautiful 18 month crested gecko that is just now hitting 17g. I fully expect her to reach adult size by 3-3.5 years and have no concerns for her health or development. This age/weight ratio is fairly normal for my colony and most of my animals experience a surge in growth around the end of the second year. I have found in my earlier experiences with crested geckos that feeding increased amounts of bugs does lead to faster growth, however the animals that reached a larger size and were bred at two years instead of three never reached larger sizes (50+g). This may be due to genetics, but I have found more recently (upon reducing bug intake and providing a complete powder diet with intermittent insect feeding) that animals allowed to grow at a slower rate and that are bred at a later age produce better eggs and reach a larger adult size. Regardless of my experience or that of anyone else who has posted similar stories, the weight/age ratio is not a valid reason to claim the animal is unhealthy.

I have not personally purchased an animal from Margaret, but have trusted her with the care of some of my most precious geckos for breeding loans. I have full confidence that they will return in great health and that I will purchase animals from her in the future. It is clear from the screen shots that the Margaret tried to negotiate a compromise with the buyer, to no avail. The buyer violated the seller's TOS by disputing the purchase with paypal instead of taking responsibility for a purchase they made without inquiring about statistics that might have caused them to decline the purchase. This is not the fault of the seller and her reputation should not be tarnished due to the lack of inquiry on the part of the buyer.

 

[Styx]

Lastly, I would like to address the debate on growth rates: I don't understand why others are admitting to having slow growing animals themselves, if most geckos are 40g at two years old, then perhaps instead of defending methods that are resulting in animals much smaller at this age, the focus should be on how can one improve their practices.

Geckos are living animals and don't adhere to a strict standard of how they should be in relation to someone's expectations of them. Variations in growth and maturation size should be expected in reptiles as it is expected in dogs, cats, and people. Just because something starts off smaller and slower does not indicate it will finish off as a small adult.

A more reasonable thing to have done would be to express one's concern over the size, and if feelings of apprehension continued to exist after calmly discussing the animal in question, one could ask for a vet examination before shipping.

 

[knucklesreptiles]

I've never raised crested geckos but seems to me the gecko was in good health. And buyer just no longer wanted them. Why not accept the credit? Or maybe take the replacement he offered from the same sibs? I think that was just wrong to be unwilling to meet in the middle. And also you can't quote other breeders sheets cause everybody care may not be the same, am I right? No matter how knowledgeable they are. FYI I'm not trying to knock anybody here just a IMO thing.

 

[CGMa]

It appears that in the five pages of support for Margaret's business and animal care practices most of what I would like to say has already been said, so I would just like to reiterate what others have said about growth rates varying among animals/environments and geographical location having an effect on growth rates.

People doing what the buyer has done makes me frightened for the hobby. Most of us breeders, myself and Margaret included, are hobbyist breeders who do it for the love of the animals first and to help fund our involvement in the hobby second. We are not getting rich from breeding geckos and we do what we can to protect ourselves financially by having a ToS in place. If a buyer doesn't like a particular seller's ToS then don't purchase from that seller. Very simple. People initiating PayPal claims and chargebacks when it's not warranted is bad for the hobby AND for those particular buyers because what they often don't realize is that they are shooting themselves in the foot as far as future purchases go. Even without a BOI, breeders talk to each other and just as a breeder can get a bad reputation, so can a buyer. I know that I for one won't sell to a questionable buyer - it's just not worth the risk.

As far as Margaret of HH goes, I've done business with her in the past - both as a buyer and a seller. I am relatively local to her and have been to her home on more than one occasion and have had the privilege of seeing many of her lovely animals firsthand. I've never seen anything that raised a concern of any kind. Her animals are beautiful, healthy and growing as they should under the circumstances.

I hope this issue can be resolved swiftly and in Margaret's favor because the bottom line is that the buyer agreed to a ToS and then changed her mind. That should not be Margaret's problem.

 

[TheLittleHeathen]

This is an unreasonable BOI, 100%.

OP also fails to mention she AGREED to terms which clearly state there is no cash refund for animals purchased, and that she was in breach of those terms by filing a buyback through paypal, instead of taking store credit or replacement animals.

I don't understand the point of this BOI at all. You OP are in breach of terms, you are still waiting on PAYPAL'S decision on which side is in the right, since you refused to have your animals shipped, and then cited "Items not Received" as your paypal dispute reason... and there is no reason at all to sling mud about the growth rates of someone else's animals or declare them unhealthy, when there is no proof that this is a true statement at all.

I've been in the crested gecko hobby for nigh on 8 years. And I can state with certainty that 2-3yrs to reach adulthood is perfectly normal for a reptile, especially a crested gecko.

The OP seems quite focused on the fact that she powerfeeds insects to force her animals to adult size in under 2 years, and her reason for this BOI is being disappointed that she bought from a seller that does not partake in the practice.

I will be posting followups with photo evidence of the perfectly healthy animals in my collection and their perfectly healthy "slow" growth rates.

I have bought from the Harlequin Hoard in the past, and we co-own an adult female. I personally live mere blocks away from Margaret and have been in her gecko room numerous times. She has a thriving roach colony and feeds nothing but PFMC, the most celebrated diet in current seasons. She has healthy animals, and cares for them a great deal.

This BOI is unfounded and its obvious the OP agreed to all terms when they suited her, and then showed her untrustworthy nature as soon as she decided she'd overspent.

I will personally never sell to this person after seeing this ridiculous post. If I can't put trust in a buyer keeping their end of the bargain, what is the point? What is to stop people from pulling this same stunt AFTER they've received their animals? Personally this is now my opinion of the OP of this thread.

This.

 

[purple]

I feel like a lot of what I would like to say has already been said in this post. I just wanted to start off by saying that I would recommend the Harlequin Hoarde to anyone in the gecko hobby. I have done business with her both buying/selling. I also have breeder animals on loan in her care, and she has also taken on geckos of mine in the past to care for. There is no way that I would trust her with my animals or do breeding loans with her if her husbandry wasn't spot on. There is nothing wrong with feeding PFMC as it is a complete diet and was tested by Matt for those who did not want to feed bugs. When you have a colony this big, feeding bugs becomes more of a treat and less of a weekly priority. The geckos I've received from her were healthy, and she has taken great care of my breeding/laying females. When I had one of her breeding females, she was healthy and did great in my care as well.

Second I would like to point out how ridiculous this is of you Jenn. I know you own your own gecko business and you yourself have a terms of sale agreement. In your own terms of sale one of the first things you say is that you want potential buyers to ask all questions before sending payment and agreeing to the TOS. Why is this something you can expect from your customers, but cannot do yourself (could have asked from day one what the hatchdate was?) The harlequin hoarde never hid this gecko's hatchdate, and you are lying by saying she did so. With there being a public timeline of her buying the gecko, how can you claim this was something hidden? It's a lie. Furthermore, why do you even have a TOS for yourself if you cannot respect other breeders TOS? You blatantly went against the TOS even though the seller was trying to work with you. She followed her TOS and offered you credit/replacement animals, yet you were the one to go against it. I just find it kind of crazy that you expect people to follow your rules, but when it comes to other breeder's rules you are allowed to pick and choose? That's not how things work, you agreed to the TOS when you sent payment. The TOS are there to protect us as sellers, which I would have thought would have been something you understood.

Another thing that bothers me is that you contacted her the day she was shipping out your animals. What would you have done if they were already sent out? To me it seems as if you got cold feet and wanted your money back for whatever reason.

I find it ironic how you pick and choose breeder's experiences based off whether or not they fit into your claims as well. There are several experienced breeders commenting on growth rates in this thread, and you discredit all of them. You are basically saying no they are all wrong, but these couple of personal experiences I found are correct! You cannot just pick and chose who fits into your mold while discrediting everyone else's experiences. It is not uncommon for a gecko to go through slower periods of growth as well as growth spurts, every single gecko is different. There are a lot of variables that have already been mentioned, like being in cooler weather. Over the years Ive found that getting a gecko to around 20-25grams takes the longest, unless you are having them pound down protein several times a week (frowned upon.) It is normal for a gecko to take a good 2-3 years to reach adult size.

I don't think you realize what you've done by going against someone's TOS when you agreed to them. I personally would not do business with someone who I cannot trust. How do I know that if I sold you an animal today, that 5 months later you wouldn't change your mind and demand payment back or file charge backs on animals? How do I know that you wouldn't lie and try to drag my business' name through the mud? That's exactly what you've done here, and I find it a shame. You are newer to the gecko hobby, and I would have thought starting your own business page you'd know better.