Has this ever happened to you,,?

[Stardust]

I have an idea, when Seamus finally does get on, and he will. Maybe we should take it to a chat room. Maybe his scrolling will at least be shorter.

 

[Dragondad]

Not a bad idea Stardust

 

[herpcondo]

Hey, if he wants to wear his fingers down, trying to justify why he is an all knowing pompus a$$ to everyone,, I say go for it,,, I always skip over anything he has to say anyway,,, when i see him banging his head on the desk, i know to scroll down past it,, not worth reading....

 

[Dragondad]

True Joe, I just skip to the next page since I figure his response is taking up the remainder of whatever page I am on.

He must be a lawyer, the only people I know who will use 20 words to say what normal people do in 5. They call it boilerplating we can just call it "hot air envelope"

 

[Uffern]

Dragondad, you confuse me.

This is what I said.

this has affected Petco in no discernable way.

Then you said this.

Petco wasn't harmed the industry wasnt harmed

I don't see what you are trying to say.

I guess they just got a few more that were destined for San Fran area right

Maybe not, but those animals are still sick and dying. They have not benefited at all. The only thing she changed was where they die.

Did she kill the industry or are we just going forward.

That's just it, nothing is going forward. She has not improved anything except PETA's arguement. I'm not "looking for the evil." Evil is a religious term. If you cannot see the far reaching implications of this, then it is not I who should wake up.

And you MM, shame on you to be on a telemarketers side because that is your softness, but not on the side of someone who is being called names.

Rozann, I was not on telemarketers' side because of any softness. It was because of the justification used to treat them like crap. If you are a jerk, and act like it, then that is fine. But to claim they deserve it and should expect it because or their job is crap. I'm not on the "side of someone who is being called names" because Seamus has not used any sort of pseudoreasoning to justify the terms he used. Seamus, in fact, has also been called names. I have heard psuedoreasoning to justify this, however.

Mixing potting training a toddler to educating a corperation. LOL Now that IS good. But I wont get into that now

Please, get into it. I would like to see what makes this comparison so funny to you.


Is anyone able to attack the arguement? Here it is again, incase it has been lost in the recent morass of juvenile antics.

Marcia did not improve the lives nor health of the animals. She did not cause any damage to Petco. She did give PETA one more thing to use as an arguement that pets should be banned. Someone please tell me where the good in this is? What about this is to be congratulated?

 

[John Apple]

One thing we are all forgetting while the stabs continue and great one liners have me on the floor in stitches. sarcasm
yes animals are first
what happened at petco 'could' start a snowball effect
and to answer a question posted a while back about how many animals would it take me to get involved???? one. gee a surprise there
education and diligence pays off its up to everybody that 'knows' to educate on this hobby to ensure that our rights as responsible herpers are not infringed on.
Oh and another thing go back and read some of Seamus posts on different threads, he is smart.
No I am not defending anyone I am speaking my mind
word to all that can't stand the 'rantings' of Seamus , When and if he steps over the line he will be banned also this is a free site, if ya don't like the rantings don't read them

 

[John Apple]

Amen Richard

 

[Stardust]

MM

For now Richard, she did help the animals that were there and some of the corruption behind it.
You know I went outside and didn't hear PETA having a party somewhere. PETA are over the top activists, way over the top. They are too concerned with the next demonstration.
To be so paranoid that there are all these little peta lurkers (LOL, sorry just imagining it) crawling around is crazy too. One person is not going to be the end all of herps. PETA is not now walking around holding up Marcia for being their savior. Gee why didn't they think of this a long time ago.
What do you propose MM? Just sit around and let everyone do what they will? You don't think these stores, or careless owners or people selling to non responsible people is a heck of a lot worse than what Marcia did for the industry? All the people who give up their pets? The people who cut off the tails just so the animal is within limits of the law?
What do you propose MM? Please tell me............ oh wait, you are not the king................ just the pawn.
And I am having a sound off with my antics thank you very much!

 

[Stardust]

Other than just using the word pawn and king, I do not believe I have called any names here. Stating my opinion. Didn't say he wasnt smart either, just needs to the the a$$ out of smart at times.


Coulda, woulda, shoulda

got to pick up one of my kids now, it was fun!

 

[Seamus Haley]

Since we've drifted back and forth a few times, I'll make my comments general rather than quoting specifics.

I ascribed adjectives to Marcia and Marcia's actions because I believed them to be true. She has assisted in something that could potentially be pretty bad for everyone. Some laws or amendments have passed, others are in legislation all over the country and were instigated, at least in part, by the fact that the Petco lawsuit got a good deal of press time considering what else has been going on in the world and will likely continue to do so as the wheels of the legal system grind forward.

The care sheet law in California is an easy to see example of the aftereffects as are proposed laws that would change animal owners from "Animal Owners" to "Animal Guardians" and start prosecuting animal violations as if they were child abuse situations.

All of it is a tip of the iceburg situation however. Laws and restrictions have been a problem in isolated communities and certain states for years now, senseless legalities imposed by naive people that don't have any positive ramifications. There's no point in making laws that can't be enforced and there's no point in making laws that fail to bring about their intended goal. Since the Petco issue is high profile, it not only spurs other communities into following suit and changes the general attitude of the public (Not herpers, the masses of people who might have watched an episode of croc hunter) and sets a dangerous precident should the lawsuit succeed. Both for other existing stores and other potential stores, the profit margin is razor thin for pet retail anyway, the last thing shop owners need is a lawsuit started by people who don't know any better claiming it's cruel to keep tarantulas in deli cups or snakes in rack systems.

Was my language strong? Yes, of course it was, it's a situation I feel strongly about.

Are Marcia's feelings hurt because I said she helped PETA and participated in something negative and made a moral judgement about the nature of her character based on her deffense of her actions even after evidence was presented explaining that they were probably bad actions? Is she really losing sleep over the fact that I think she was naive and ignorant and commited acts that are a danger to the hobby and the animals and didn't actually accomplish her stated goal of helping the geckos?

Somehow I doubt it really had that much impact on her. She seems to regard me, quite rightly I might add, as a loudmouth, so I doubt she's affected by my words in the least.

With regards to me being all knowing...

I'm nowhere even close. But I know herps and a few other things pretty well and can support my arguments with logic mixed with a healthy dose of opinion. I learn things easily and enjoy knowledge, if you don't care to see what I have to say, just skip the posts or don't bother opening them in the first place, it's entirely your choice.

As to my personal experience, my animals, my education and my basis for speaking my mind and what has formed my position on this (and other) issue(s)...

I've got experience with a fairly wide range of herps although I have my personal favorites of course, I've got a small private collection I am not a major breeder and olny undertake projects that appeal to me I've got an education, judge it's worth for yourselves and I speak my mind because... Well, Rich hasn't kicked me off the site yet. I'm also not too inclined to spread any details around to people who seem to want them in order to prove that my words are worthless while not meeting the standards they want to set for me themselves (No doctorate here but then... no doctorate for any of those trying to call me on it either). There's some information about me scattered around on this website, there's only five hundred odd posts, sift through them and you'll get some ideas.

The Micrurus surinamensis are not a species I own by the way... would love to at some point but they're hard come by.

My point on this thread is and has been that Marcia's actions did not produce any positive effects but have produced some negative effects while aiding the potential for many more negative effects in the future.

There's a line between wanting to help an animal and wanting to punish the animal's owner or "help" it by making it more difficult to obtain in captivity. The educational attempts which, despite the target crack, would have helped the animals and made the situation better, failed due to her own actions after the fact and her own inability to look at the larger picture and see the ramifications of her actions. She still seems unable to conceptualize just what she has done, dismissing the threat as nonexistant to justify her actions.

There was a person I worked with at one point who, through the course of an unrelated conversation, mentioned that they donated money to HSUS every year. They had no idea what the organization actually did, but they asked for money to save puppies or something so they were given a decent amount (Not billions but a hundred a year is something). An otherwise educated person who agreed with my position about legislation that makes animals more difficult to own was completely unaware that they were helping something they disagreed with.

Marcia and anyone else who supports the larger actions against Petco is doing the same thing... they're helping further the agendas of those organizations that want animals banned from being kept in captivity. Their contributions might not be that billion dollar blow that topples the reptile industry, but every battle lost is a battle that hurts and leaves the industry wounded when the next round starts. Every battle is important and I see her as being lined up facing the wrong way on this one.

 

[Dragondad]

Back on subject darn

Gee Richard lets hope PETA doesnt read your post since what you are saying is the very thing that PETA makes the stance on. And if you truely believe that then maybe your a secret PETA member.

As long as we do what we can at hobby or business level then the industry will be the better for it. Sometimes we need to bring a bad situation to the attention of those who enforce the law. And using the legal system in any bad situation isnt a bad thing. My belief is Marcia did help the animals.

As far as PETA being able to pass laws you seem to sell your voice and the voices of others that love herps short. With herp societies and groups creating campaigns against those potential laws then it becomes voice against voice.

I don't see PETA as an all powerfull entity to fear or cringe in the corner from.

The bottom line of this is Marcia did what she thought was right.

I would rather someone do something to help that to do nothing at all. Because by doing nothing PETA will get all the ammunition it needs.

As far as Seamus is concerned he went way overboard on Marcia. And I for one am calling him on it. He can have his opinion and yes we all know Seamus has his opinions. But his opinion doesn't give him the right to say what he did. If you view what I am doing as the same then so be it. But its about time we find out about this person who will willingly tell us all we are wrong. But won't tell us anything about himself or his background to lend credibility to his posts.

 

[meretseger]

It just seems strange to me how everyone is passionately railing againts pet stores but no one seems to be directing any anger at the people who bred these lizards in unsanitary conditions. Wouldn't they really be the root of the problem? The ignorance of pet store employees didn't make the geckos sick, and probably isn't really sufficient to make them sick during their few weeks in the store. I know Petco shouldn't be buying sick geckos, but in a perfect world, I guess, they would arrive at the store healthy and none of this would have happened.

I also think I'm missing something, if this arguement is about the California caresheet legislation. Either some other law went into effect that I'm missing, or Petco now has to hand out caresheets because their lizards were sick before they came to the store. What does the caresheet say, 'Take this animal to the vet immediately and wash your hands before eating?'

For the record, I worked at a Petco for six month a few years back, and we didn't lose one leopard gecko. They were all very healthy and I was proud to sell them. Sure, we lost a few other animals for various reasons (boy howdy), but this seems to be a Eublepharis thread so I won't elaborate.

Erin B.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

???

She did give PETA one more thing to use as an arguement that pets should be banned.

Richard, I am having a difficult time understanding how and why I am the one responsible for what Petco does. PETCO provides PeTA with the argument that pets should be banned by blatantly and willfully continuing to neglect and sell sick animals. PETCO themselves are the ones that perpetuate PeTA's plight, not me!

Since there seems to be a pattern of this behavior with Petco stores all over the country, and PeTA is everywhere thrying to get them to stop selling animals, it would appear to me that there might be some basis for PeTA's campaign.

Did I attempt to help make a difference by training the staff at a couple of Petco stores? Yes. Did I quit too soon? Perhaps. Did I react to what I saw and experienced with Petco? Yes. Did I publicly 'badmouth' Petco right after the training? No! Did I run to the authorities? No. Did I make a mistake in judgement? Depends. Did I realize that I was way over my head and back off? You bet! Am I a PeTA supporter? NO WAY!

Laws are created for the few that break them, whether it's a pet store selling infected animals or a private breeder selling infected animals. Unfortunately, ALL of us are subject to often unreasonable rules because somone else feels they are exempt from them. The BOI on this very site is FULL of people "bad mouthing" those breeders, and you & Seamus are among those that jump on the bandwagon to dig up dirt on them. Who is the bad guy? Is it the person who publicly posted what they feel are facts, or is it the breeder that knowingly sold that person a sick snake? Are the legitimate, concerned pet owners the cause of 'leash laws', or is it the guy who continually lets his dog crap in his neighbor's yard?

I feel it is high time that businesses in general are held accountable for their actions, along with everybody else. It is Petco's own doing that has gotten them into the mess they are in.

 

[Uffern]

Rozann, please have at least the miniscule amount of respect for me that it would take to refer to me by some moniker of my choosing, instead of some thinly veiled insult.

One person is not going to be the end all of herps.

So you are saying that one person cannot make a difference. It is exactly this attitude that will make the difference. One person may not be able to make a difference. but ten thousand "one person"s can make a difference. That is, unless they decide they can't so why try? If only two people that I teach how to care for the animals in the stores take that knowlege and pass it on, then I have made a difference.

BTW, if one person cannot make a difference, then why congratulate Marcia for what she did? She is only one person, and so could not have affected any change, right?

For now Richard, she did help the animals that were there and some of the corruption behind it.

This not only contradicts what you said in the very same post, but is incorrect. Those animals are not healthier or happier. They have simply not been shipped.

What do you propose MM? Please tell me

I propose that those of us who know continue to educate those who do not. It would not take very long for the kids that we educate, who take care of the animals, to be the managers who oversee the kids who take care of the animals.

To be so paranoid that there are all these little peta lurkers (LOL, sorry just imagining it) crawling around is crazy too

oh wait, you are not the king................ just the pawn.

Who is paranoid?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

no one seems to be directing any anger at the people who bred these lizards in unsanitary conditions. Wouldn't they really be the root of the problem?

Erin has made an excellent point. If you have read the entire thread, you would be fully aware that I did indeed address the suppliers of these creatures that Petco claims to 'come in that way.' I would have been all too happy to post all of that had the thread been allowed to continue in the way it had been before Seamus 'went ballistic.' But that in itself is another story..

The issue is that Petco KNOWINGLY sold the animals in that condition, refused them veterinary care and treatment, and kept them in deplorable conditions that could cause the ones that may not have been infected to become infected. Apparently, they continue to do so all over the contry. What makes Petco any less responsible than the 'reptile mills' that produce them?

 

[Stardust]

Richard or Mr. Mott, (which ever you choose)

Please do not put words in my mouth or formulate some different in your mind than I intended to write, or in this case did write.
One person won't end all herps. I did not say one person can not make a difference. Of course one person can make a difference, just not end it all. I believe I did mention education.
With that said your second point is not a contradiction.
I do not believe that I congradulated Marcia, please do correct me if I am wrong. I believe in the beginning I said something about hindsight, and whether she is right or wrong. I would have to go back and look for exact words, but I am sure you will do that for me.
Education I will not dispute, I have said it also, still, what about the drunge stores, or the breeders who are bad or the mills, what do you propose we do without giving PETA a yahoo?
I don't believe that there is a easy answer to that, that is why it is important not only to educate, but to also stick together in the mutual love and respect that we have for this animals, and that does not include name calling or demeaning someone for something they tryed to do.
If Seamus had wrote like this last letter in here, not much would have been said, I for one would have respected his opinion like I have done in the past. Its the posts like the ones before this last that I do not respect, it is his inability to be humble when he is clearly acting childish that I do not respect.
As to my stooping, I do apoligize. It is not becoming in him nor is it in me. Having some fun and got carried away, unfortunately at your expense.
Erins post was exellent and very true.
I believe there has to be more, at times, than just educate, and that is to get the people who give all of us, as a whole, a bad name out of the business.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Education I will not dispute, I have said it also, still, what about the drunge stores, or the breeders who are bad or the mills, what do you propose we do without giving PETA a yahoo?

Internal control.

Stop giving money to bad breeders.

Start giving money to good breeders.

Make unhealthy animals unprofitable.

Tell new keepers the good people to deal with and the people to shy away from.

Use the BOI and other similar forums.

Explain that long term financial success can only come from a repeat customer base which only arises through having quality animals and good customer service to anyone who seems to be slipping.

When unhealthy animals are no longer profitable, they are no longer produced.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I believe there has to be more, at times, than just educate, and that is to get the people who give all of us, as a whole, a bad name out of the business

The issue is not really getting bad business stopped, I don't think anyone on these boards wants dying animals.

The issue is the means used to go about it and the dual effect of trying to impose legal ramifications.

By siding with animal rights activists, even on a single issue, it becomes a situation where the cure is worse than the disease, the after effects worse than the problem.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

FYI

It appears that Seamus has taken his homepage off of AOL since I posted the link to it, and has changed his 'Hobbies and Interests' from a list of 3 types of snake anti-venom to "I have not listed any hobbies and interests" on his AOL profile!

He has also been posting like a civilized grown-up ever since I wrote this comment:

NONE of us want our collections raided, and I have a sneaking suspicion that is exactly what Seamus is afraid of... after reading through his home page I am forming the opinion he probably does keep illegal and/or vemomous herps.

Hmmmmm. Perhaps I stumbled on to something?

 

[John Apple]

Stumbled on to what?!?!?!
Seamus keeps a few herps and quite possibly a hot or two
Seamus is looking out for his own collection as I am sure we all are
Seamus has decided to tone down

yep thats stumbling