Has this ever happened to you,,?

[Golden Gate Geckos]

PETCRAP... PART 3

PART 3

Based on what I was told by Darren Bedel about their Leopard Gecko supplier, I contacted Bill and Marcia Brandt from Gormet Rodent (TGR Reptiles), but never received a reply.


Subj: Leopard Geckos at Petco
Date: 4/9/01
To: [email protected]

CC: [email protected]


Bill and Marcia,

I just spoke at length to Darren Bedel who manages the Northern California and Nevada Petco store's animal care, and he advised me that the majority of the Leos they sell across the country are supplied by you. I don't know if you are aware, but they are neglecting, abusing and selling these beautiful creatures under deplorable conditions, and sending out literally hundreds of sick, infected and dying Leopard Geckos across the country. They are claiming that these reptiles come from you in that condition.

I have personal experience with a local Petco store that sold me a total of 3 baby Leopard Geckos that died as a result of Coccidia, and have been in contact with several other individuals in various States who have also provided factual, documented evidence of Crypto infected Leos purchased from Petco. These accounts range from having the Leo die a horrible death all the way to a breeder losing his entire colony of Leopard Geckos from a Crypto infected baby from Petco.

I would like to provide you with the initial letter I wrote to Petco regarding what I believe to be inhumane, cruel, and deplorable circumstances involving your beautiful Leo babies and the way they are treated, and hope to have a response from you:

******* COPY OF ORIGINAL LETTER TO KIM SHERMAN AT PETCO ***************

I sincerely appreciate your indulgence and immediate action with this urgent matter.

Respectfully,
Marcia McGuiness
"The Lizard Lady"
[email protected]
(925) 755-3113

_____________________________________________

I never received a response from Gourmet Rodent, and never ever spoke to Phil Paradis who was supposed ‘investigate and take action’. I was never again contacted by Craig Parsons, Darren Bedel, or Angela Giordano. I had given up even waiting for a response to my numerous efforts to contact them until I got this last and final email from Ms. Sherman:


Subj: Petco Companion Animals
Date: 5/29/01 1:47:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [email protected] (Kim Sherman)
To: [email protected] ('[email protected]')



Marcia,

Thank you very much for your emails. First, let me say that I am sorry it took me so long to reply to your emails! I have been overwhelmed with new responsibilities and challenges. I'm just now starting to get my head above
water again! I love the company I work for, but as in all retail business, changes do create challenges.

Thank you very much for your initiative in setting up training programs. I commend you for your love and knowledge of reptiles and your willingness to share this with others. We all care about the animals above all else, and I can tell you that PETCO is dedicated to the most up to date and humane animal care possible.

With warmest regards,

Kim Sherman
Communications Analyst
PETCO Animal Supplies


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I did however, speak to several of the employees from the other 3 stores that attended the training. Word had traveled fast around the Petco stores in the area that somebody was FINALLY going to do something about the animal situation, and that I stood up to the “big-wigs.” I was inundated with phone calls regarding reptile care issues, and then eventually these employees began to confide in me in matters that involved Petco’s management practices. At this point, I was just too overwhelmed with the whole thing and just listened. I had no idea what to do. By this time, all 3 of the Petco Leo babies I had ‘rescued”, dropper-fed twice daily, medicated, and practiced strict quarantine and sanitation on, had died slow and agonizing deaths.

Email correspondence continued to pour in to myself and Trace from Gexfiles from people from literally every corner of the country with their horror stories about Petco. Diagnosed and documented cases of Cryptosporidia infected Leopard Geckos were surfacing, and MANY reputable breeders and hobbyists were coming forward with accounts of their experience(s) with Petco.

Here are only a couple of examples of over 80 emails I received, and I am sure Trace received as many if not more:


Subj: Jason's Tremper CASE AGAIN
Date: 5/10/01 8:04:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [email protected] (Tracy Willis)
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected], [email protected] (Jason Tremper)
File: JasonsTr.mim (130786 bytes) DL Time (26400 bps): < 1 minute


[This e-mail contains a MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions) file. The file was specially formatted to be sent over the Internet. For more information on opening the attached file, go to Keyword: MIME.]
--------------------
Kim,
I would REALLY appreciate to see some sort of resolve resolve in this, please do not tell me that this case gets lost in the cracks again, this person went through a LOT of heartache and unnecessary expense, and I want
justice for the pain and suffering that he, and especially the baby leos went through.

Tracy

YOU WROTE:
>From: Kim Sherman <[email protected]>
>To: "'Tracy Willis'" <[email protected]>
>Subject: RE: my email from Saturday
>Date: Wed, May 9, 2001, 11:25 AM
>

> Tracy,
>
> Thank you for your continued concern for animal welfare. According to our records, all but one of the customer >issues brought forward on this subject have been fully resolved. Unfortunately, one of the cases was >misrouted from our end, and is now being addressed by our representative at the regional level.

> Kim Sherman
> Communications Analyst, Customer Satisfaction Team

----------
From: "Tracy Willis" <[email protected]>
To: CustomerSatisfaction <[email protected]>
Subject: PetCo leopard geckos Attention Kim Sherman
Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001, 12:48 PM


Hello again Kim, this is contact #2, this person was devastated by losing two baby female leopard geckos from Petco due to crypto. He had to put them both down and has given the contact number for both the vet and the store which he purchased them.

What you have to realize Kim, is that some of these people were not aware of crypto and what it does until after the fact. This poor person was so devastated that he had to put them to sleep.....

Tracy Willis

----------
From: "Jason Tremper" <[email protected]>
To: "Tracy Willis" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Crypto leos from PetCo
Date: Tue, Mar 20, 2001, 11:48 AM


The PETCO location was in Terre Haute Indiana, only 1 here. The vet i took them to was The Honey Creek Animal Hospital. Petco's number is 812-242-9912. I have inserted the pictures of Ezzy, I have none of my other girl who I also had to put to sleep.

Jason
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Subj: Leo forum and petstore woes
Date: 6/4/01 8:03:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [email protected] (Sharon Ainsley)
To: [email protected]



Hello.
First, let me say that I am so grateful to you and the others at the forum for providing such a great educational place for gecko owners. Thank you...I am sure that the effort you make out there has saved or improved the lives of so many animals...I commend you!

Now, as far as the PETCO issue, I have about had it. I already shared my story on the little crypto leo I got from them...and the problems keep persisting. I swear, the girls that worked up there flat out told me that they were not ALLOWED to get the animals to a vet...and one of them was stupid enough to force feed that emaciated and very thin juvenile leo a whole SUPERWORM...he could not even keep down the pedialyte at times so they stick a huge worm down his throat!! **ugh** Anyway...

And the other animals up there have been equally miserably cared for. They have pacman frogs in tiny little plastic boxes, had two Mali Uros in a cage at about 80 degrees without adequate heat (on wet sand, no less!) I have talked with everyone in there at this point about something and just keep getting blown off, and have simply boycotted the store now.

Our other PETCO has currently got a 10 gal tank FULL of hatchlings on sand with a load of huge crickets running around...I have talked to the people there too, but no changes have been made and the little guys don't look so good... they are all skinny and sick looking.

The only place I can get supplies is a local dealer that is kinda far from my house, but at least they care for their animals and know what to do with them...but I am very frustrated and sad.

I think some of the workers TRY (as best they know how) because some were at least willing to listen to me, but it saddens (and sickens) me to go out to buy supplies and ALWAYS see poor, neglected, sickly, etc...animals every time I go to a PETCO. I don’t even want to spend my money there anymore.
I am hoping that I can help these animals in whatever way possible and that you can point me in a good direction for continuing my vigil...these creatures deserve better than being made to suffer like that.

Thank you again...

~Sharon
(leopard gecko forum)

_________________________________________________________________
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_____________________________________________________________________________________

(In case anyone is wondering, YES Jason Tremper is related to you-know-who...)

Sometime in mid-June, I received a phone call from the fellow (we’ll call him Nathan) that took care of the reptiles in the **** store... the other local Petco I had visited and bragged about how well-kept the reptile tanks were kept. He had not attended the training class, but said he had heard really good things about me and the training. He had a few questions about some “sick” geckos in his store.

According to him, they had received a shipment of Leopard Geckos a week or so prior, and they were wasting away and dying. He had taken several of them home with him, and wanted advise on how to care for them. I almost went ballistic! Basically, all I could tell him is that they needed to get diagnosed and treated by a veterinarian, and it was in Petco’s written policy that any animal in need of professional care was supposed to receive it. He told me that the management did not allow him to take them to the vet, and was told to just put them in the freezer to euthanize them, along with other animals like dead/dying birds. I asked him how long the geckos had been sick, and he told me they came in like that. I asked him where they get their reptiles, and he said he didn’t know. I asked him how long this sort of thing had gone on, and he told me, “Ever since I’ve worked here... over a year.” I asked him if he'd ever contacted any of the upper management within Petco, and he replied, "No way!"

I asked him if he could find out where they get their Leopard Geckos, and what happens to the dead animals from the freezer. He told me he didn’t know what happened to the dead animals, that they just ‘disappear’ and the freezer becomes empty again. He also told me he would look up the reptile purchase invoices and get back to me. Then, I asked him if he knew anything about ***** (the employee from the other store with the dying gecko), and he said, “Didn’t you know she got fired?” I asked if he knew why, and he said, “..something about stealing some animals from the store.”

A period of time passed, and Nathan called me and asked me when I would be able to come in to the store, because he had something for me. Since I am disabled, I was ill and it is sometimes difficult for me to go anywhere when I am having an exacerbation, so I asked him if there was any way he could come to my place. We set up a date for the following week. I tried every avenue to reach the employee who had been terminated from the other store, but without success.

That’s when I got a telephone call from Susan Barnett, a reporter from NBC Dateline in New York.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

TO BE CONTINUED…………………………

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

PART 3

Ms. Barnett was referred to me by a person whose name I will not post in order to protect them from possible ramifications. NBC Dateline was doing a story on pet store animal abuse, and she was interested in the claims people were making in regard to the deaths of reptiles. We spoke at length, in rather general terms. I sincerely wanted to tell her everything I knew about Petco, and provide her with every document and photograph I had, but first wanted to discuss it with the person who had given her my name and phone number. This is the email I received from her later that day:


Subj: nbc
Date: 8/8/01 4:44:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [email protected] (Barnett, Susan (NBC))
To: [email protected] ('[email protected]')



Dear Marcia,

Thank you very much for you time today. Please feel free to contact me with any information you wish to share, just let me know when you are ready.
Here is my info:

[email protected]
800-622-6397 x 3158

address:
Susan Barnett
Dateline NBC
30 Rockefeller Plaza - 4th floor
NY NY 10112
212-664-3158 (direct # for fed x)
fed x acc't #: 1475-8194-7


Thanks again,
Susan


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From: "Barnett, Susan (NBC)" <[email protected]>
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________________________________________________________________________________________

A few weeks later, I received this email from Ms. Barnes:


Subj: nbc
Date: 8/24/01 8:53:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [email protected] (Barnett, Susan (NBC))
To: [email protected] ('[email protected]')



Hi Marcia,

I am wondering if it's ok for me to contact Thomas Morris regarding the problem he had with his geckos.

Do you have a phone # for him? If not, I will email him if you think that's ok to do.

Thanks,
Susan


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From: "Barnett, Susan (NBC)" <[email protected]>
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My response:

Subj: Re: nbc
Date: 8/24/01
To: [email protected]


___________________________________________-
My response:


Hello Susan,

I do not have Tom Morris' phone number, but perhaps Trace @ Gexfiles does. I think he would be the ideal person to speak to directly if you want information regarding the horrible tragedies he has experienced, but I cannot speak for him. Tom (AKA "Vanyul" on the forums) is an extremely sensitive and caring humanitarian, and has suffered tremendously in every aspect (including his physical health) over the loss of nearly his entire breeding colony from the deadly, highly contagious disease Cryptosporidia which began from an infected animal purchased at PetCo. He is thought very highly of in the herp community, and I believe Trace has had more personal contact with him than most of us.

He has a wonderful Memorial Wall dedicated to his beloved little creatures (as well as a few of mine and others) which you can take a look at... it will give you an idea of the kind of person he is. http://www.geocities.com/vanyul_69/memorial/index.html

If you do contact him, please keep in mind his extremely sensitive and fragile nature and that he may be subject to being very emotional and introverted at times. Considering what he’s been through, it is understandable and I trust your discretion with this personal information regarding him I have given you.


Regards,
Marcia McGuiness
“The Lizard Lady”

_________________________________________________________________________________________
A few days later I received an instant message from Tom Morris telling me he had been contacted by Susan Barnett from NBC, and he was glad they had talked. We discussed his tragedy and he told me that Petco was about to make a settlement offer to him. I was glad for him, and we did not discuss the terms.

I wrote this emal to Susan Barnes:


Subj: Petco reptiles
Date: 8/31/01
To: [email protected]


Hello Susan,

I chatted with Tom Morris this morning, and he said he's spoken to you at length. I'm glad you were able to speak with him, and I hope that he was able to provide some valuable information for you. He was very pleased that you contacted him, as well.

I had an employee from Petco call me a week or so ago, (Nathan) and he came by last evening to look at my Leopard Geckos and he asked a lot of questions regarding their health, behavior and husbandry. He said the stores provide virtually NO training for their animal caretakers and employees, and he was clueless on reptile diseases and parasites. He owns several reptiles, and that is the basis of his knowledge, and I have personally seen the reptile enclosures in his store and they are are very well kept. He also informed me that many of their animals come in sick, and just seem to waste away and die, and that a very large percentage of the reptiles they sell get sick and die, and are returned to the store for refunds. I was able to get a lot of information from him regarding Petco and their policies, as well as the source of their animals. He provided me with several copies of purchase orders and invoices for their reptile stock… they buy from California Zoological Supply (CalZoo). http://www.calzoo.com. Also, Tom Morris told me this morning that the sick animal he purchased from Petco that infected his entire colony came from CalZoo.

I did not discuss anything with (Nathan) other than my deep concern and despair over the condition and treatment of the animals they are selling, and he agreed with me totally. He was anxious to learn as much as possible in order to provide better care for the animals and to "spread the word" that each individual employee can make a significant difference in the stores. He told me point-bank that Petco could care less about their animals, and the management strongly discourages veterinary care for the sick ones due to cost issues. He was very frustrated and saddened.

I do not know if (Nathan) would be willing to speak with you, and I am unsure if I should even mention anything at all about you or NBC. At this point, I am reluctant to get that directly involved, but I thought you'd be interested to know that there is someone who works for Petco that cares deeply for the welfare of their animals.


Regards,
Marcia McGuiness
"The Lizard Lady"
________________________________________________________________________________________

Subj: nbc
Date: 8/31/01 12:17:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [email protected] (Barnett, Susan (NBC))
To: [email protected] ('[email protected]')



Well, that is certainly on interesting conversation you had with Nathan...

You sort of have to feel him out, use your gut instincts -- but if you think he'd be interested in speaking with me, I certainly would be interested in speaking with him. You can tell him there is a reporter who's doing some research on the pet trade and is interested in speaking with him on background -- meaning he's not going to be quoted or named. I won't put his job in jeopardy and the conversation would just be between him and me. Either I can call him or he can call me. Sometimes people are intimidated to call a reporter, so it's simpler if I can call him. Please let me know if you think this is feasible, and I completely understand your position.

thanks!

Susan

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 2:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Petco reptiles

************************* my email above was written here *************************************

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Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 15:46:53 -0400
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_________________________________________________________________________________

I cannot elaborate any further on the subject of NBC’s story, because quite frankly I do not know what the outcome was/is to date. My health was not good at the time, and since stress can add to FMS exacerbations, I felt it was in my own best interest to drop the entire Petco issue completely. I was too emotionally involved.

Then, I got this email forwarded from Trace at Gexfiles:

Subj: FW: [Fwd: DEATH OF GECKO]
Date: 10/8/01 6:39:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [email protected] (gexfiles)
To: [email protected]
File: Gracie.doc (17920 bytes) DL Time (28800 bps): < 1 minute


----------
From: Beardsley <[email protected]>
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 13:09:14 -0700
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Fwd: DEATH OF GECKO]

Tracy,

I hope you get the attached letter I sent to my local Petco before I saw your web site.

From: Beardsley <[email protected]>
Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services
Date: Dimanche 07 octobre 2001 04:06
To: [email protected]
Subject: DEATH OF GECKO

Here is a copy of a letter that I had sent to our local Petco before I saw this web site.

Please let me know if the attachment didn't come through, I don't send many attachments.
Thank you for you interest.

Kathy

-Attachment-

--
Subj: Death of a Gecko
Date: 10/8/01
To: [email protected]




October 3, 2001


Petco
Attn: (Nathan), Reptile Department
1825 Salvio
****, CA 94***

Dear (Nathan),

I spoke with you on the phone a few weeks ago and you had asked that I keep you posted as to the outcome of our dear little gecko "Gracie." Well, here is our story.

My daughter Hilary and I had been watching the geckos at Petco all summer as she saved all of her weekly allowance to buy the tank and all the accessories. By the time she had bought most of the equipment, including the Gecko book, my husband and I decided that we should pick up the last few items and pay for the gecko for her. She was obviously very interested and excited about getting a leopard gecko.

We purchased "Gracie" on August 20, 2001. We brought her home and she immediately became the love of our lives. She loved crickets, meal worms, her hide, rock, water, etc. As the days progressed she began eating less and less. I talked to some different staff members at Petco and received some advice as to what to do, and "Gracie’s" tail was getting thinner and thinner.

At that point the bearded dragons and young leopard geckos were no longer for sale in your store, and there was a sign that said, NOT FOR SALE. As "Gracie" was eating less and less, we became worried and was given your name to speak to.

You listened to my concerns and advised us to see a vet which we did. To make a long story somewhat shorter, after trips to the vet and fecal samples brought in "Gracie" kept wasting away. She finally left us for Gecko Heaven the early morning of October 1st, 2001. The vet office told us her demise was due to Cryptosporidia.

In our phone conversation, you had asked me to keep you posted. I am very sorry to say that our story had a very sad ending. I can only hope that the rest of the lot that she came from is doing OK.

We really miss our "Gracie."

Kathy and Hilary Beardsley
**** Oakpark Court
*****, CA 94***
(925) 687-**** -------


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Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 09:41:32 +0800
Subject: FW: [Fwd: DEATH OF GECKO]
From: gexfiles <[email protected]>
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_____________________________________________________________________________________

Well, needless to say that was the very same local store and the very same (Nathan) I had spoken to. I immediately called him at the store, and confirmed ‘Gracie’s’ story. The store manager would not refund the Beardsley’s money because it was past the 14-day return policy. He told me that the batch of Leopard Geckos babies that had come in were all sick and he had quarantined them. He said they had come from CalZoo, and he had copies of the purchase invoice if I wanted them.

I then called the Beardsley’s, and spoke to Hilary’s mom, Kathy. We both cried as she recounted the tragic events that led to Gracie’s death, and how devastated Hilary was over it along with the rest of the family. They didn’t even care about a refund, or the fact that they had spent several hundred dollars on veterinary treatment and the necropsy. I was absolutely heartbroken for them, and volunteered to give Hilary one of my babies as a replacement for Gracie, but Kathy wasn’t sure at that point that they were even ready for another one yet.

I then sent this email to Cal-Zoo, Gourmet Rodent, Trace, the Beardsley’s, Petco and NBC:


Subj: Fwd: FW: [Fwd: DEATH OF GECKO]
Date: 10/8/01
To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]



To whom it may concern;

I received the attached e-mail this morning regarding one of the local Petco stores and the fact that they continue to sell sick and infected reptiles to the public. I know (Nathan) from that Petco store, and was advised that they get their reptiles from California Zoological Supply (Cal-Zoo). This employee is in frequent contact with me to gain knowledge and advise on how he can help the animals and "make a difference" in his store.

Last spring, I went through all the "proper" channels with Petco, and volunteered my time to give an educational presentation to the employees from 4 of the local stores. It was attended by several employees, as well as the District and Regional managers, and I felt that this type of education and support was well received until I made a post on one of the herp forums about the training an made reference to a tragic incident that immediately followed the seminar. I was contacted by the buyer for Petco, and the subsequent correspondence was rhetorical and condescending. At that time, I felt it was completely fruitless to attempt to continue to deal with this issue directly with Petco's management and on a corporate level, and that volunteering my assistance was a waste of time... until now.

I have personally witnessed and experienced the heartbreak and despair of how these beautiful, gentle animals are housed and cared for at Petco stores. The conditions are deplorable, husbandry and sanitation are despicable, and the employees are untrained and absolutely clueless in regard to the proper care of these animals, much less aware of the potential for epidemic spread of disease.

I am putting you on notice that if Petco continues to buy and sell sick and infected animals, and if the breeders/suppliers continue to raise, sell and ship these pathetic, sick little creatures, I will personally take this matter to the media and file complaints with the proper law enforcement and health agencies. I cannot and will not stand by and watch innocent animals suffer needlessly at the hands of individuals that consider them nothing more that inventory items. This type of business practice is soley responsible for the widespread heartbreak and grief that is caused when someone brings home a beloved animal only to watch it suffer and die. These animals and the public deserve better than this.

Marcia McGuiness
"The Lizard Lady"

___________________________________________________________________________________

I never got a response from Gourmet Rodent or any of the PetCorp people, but I did from Cal Zoo:


Subj: Re: FW: [Fwd: DEATH OF GECKO]
Date: 10/8/01 1:46:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Cal Zoo

To: LizardLady2001

CC: [email protected], [email protected]



Marcia McGuiness
Thank you for the e-mail, I am sorry to hear about the gecko.

(Nathan) was correct We do indeed supply quality reptiles to many Petco stores. We also sell leopard geckos, however we have not supplied Petco baby leopard geckos for sometime. They buy these direct from another breeder/vendor in FL.

I would however be happy to include one of ours no charge the next time the Petco store orders, to replace the one that died. If that sounds good please have (Nathan) contact myself or Mike.

Thank you for time and concern.
MR.Tarune "TY" Dillon
Managing Director
California Zoological Supply
1615 East Saint Gertrude Place
Santa Ana, CA 92705
Ph:714-641-1597 Fax: 714-549-8859 www.calzoo.com

ALL SUPPLIERS: I will be in ASIA from October 17, 2001 and back middle of the week November 19. I would like to prepare/confirm, receive or schedule any FALL shipments we have coming from you before I leave. THANKS.


In a message dated 10/8/2001 12:56:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, LizardLady2001 writes:


**********a copy of the email I sent them was included here ***********************



ALL SUPPLIERS: I will be in ASIA from October 17, 2001 and back middle of the week November 19. I would like to prepare/confirm, receive or schedule any FALL shipments we have coming from you before I leave. THANKS.

MR.Tarune "TY" Dillon
Managing Director
California Zoological Supply
1615 East Saint Gertrude Place
Santa Ana, CA 92705
Ph:714-641-1597 Fax: 714-549-8859 www.calzoo.com

____________________________________________________________________________________________
After several more phone calls from (Nathan) at Petco, I did eventually give him Susan Barnett’s contact information. A few days later, I got a call from the Beardsley’s and they did not want a replacement from Cal Zoo and wanted to take me up on my offer to give Hilary on of my Leopard Geckos babies. We set a date for them to come over so they could pick one out.

When they came over, I was very impressed with Hilary (11 years old) and her level of responsibility. She and her parents sat down together and read the entire book “The Leopard Gecko Manual” before getting Gracie, and the fact that Hilary had saved her own allowance to buy all the necessary items and get them set up ahead of time proved to me that she was deserving of a new pet. Hilary picked out a beautiful (very healthy) female baby, and to this day we are in contact.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

TO BE CONTINUED…………………………….

 

[Seamus Haley]

This is obviously going to continue on in this manner with a post or two a day and frankly I don't want to wait to respond.

You started to follow the proper channels and then yes... YOU blew it Marcia.

It may not be right for Petco to have dismissed you after you posted on KS but you should have been able to anticipate that sort of response, you were trashing a corporation that you had claimed to want to help based off incidents that occured MINUTES AFTER YOU FINISHED YOUR "LECTURE"

You felt slighted, you were contacted by what really is nothing more than tabloid journalism as being potential human interest bait and you let loose with a series of sob stories.

Yes... it is bad when any animal dies...

No... it is not worth promulgating negative information (I also notice you avoided any specific numbers "a high percentage" and "many" are completely meaningless) that affects the ENTIRE INDUSTRY because you feel sad over a lost gecko.

If your goal was to lower the chances of anyone owning a reptile... You've started well on your way to succeeding...

If your goal was to correct a negative situation in a local store... You have failed horribly.

If you have anything that's actual TANGIBLE information rather than vauge reffrences to numbers that you either don't know or refuse to specify, I'd love to see it... But somehow I suspect that you don't. When you said you had "information" I was waiting for something like... "X percent of reptiles that enter a petco store die while in store, out of those sold, X percent are returned." You have given nothing that's really factual or concrete or specific, just feelings and stories about you crying... I sound like a callous jerk but... I really couldn't give a rat's ass if you got all teary eyed, you stated you had INFORMATION.

To the rest of you reading this... THIS is why I hate democrats... they get a hold of some human interest angle and use it to perpetuate our progress towards a totalitarian state, citing individual sob stories as being validation for restrictions and laws and regulations that impede the lives of everyone else for NO DAMN REASON.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Seamus, or should I say 'Shame-A$$'

Please try to withold your comments and conclusions until I get all the information posted....

Seamus, somehow I KNEW you wouldn't be able to wait for the conclusion of this (yes, very long) story without jumping in with your arrogant, know-it-all, judge and jury, dictatorial rhetoric. I didn't have my last post up for 15 minures before you pounced! You must be a very fast typist! LOL!!!

You felt slighted, you were contacted by what really is nothing more than tabloid journalism as being potential human interest bait and you let loose with a series of sob stories.

Don't you think I knew that was a journalistic manipulation? So what?

If you have anything that's actual TANGIBLE information rather than vauge reffrences to numbers that you either don't know or refuse to specify, I'd love to see it... But somehow I suspect that you don't.

Too bad Seamus. I DO have information, as does Trace from Gexfiles, as does the SF District Attorney's office after I got a subpoena to turn it over. You're right on one thing, though.. I do not know all the statistical information regarding the actual numbers from individual stores since I did not appoint myself as the resident expert Petco statistician like you probably would have done. In regard to "refusing" to specify, so far I haven't refused anything! I didn't realize there was anything to refuse.

You have given nothing that's really factual or concrete or specific, just feelings and stories about you crying. I was waiting for something like... "X percent of reptiles that enter a petco store die while in store, out of those sold, X percent are returned."

If the information I have is not what YOU wanted, that's YOUR problem... not mine. Waaaahhh!

I sound like a callous jerk but... I really couldn't give a rat's ass if you got all teary eyed, you stated you had INFORMATION.

Yes, you do sound like a callous jerk, and obviously proud of it!

You started to follow the proper channels and then yes... YOU blew it Marcia.

If your goal was to correct a negative situation in a local store... You have failed horribly.

I love the way you make everything my fault! LOL! It's MY fault Petco keeps their animals in horrible conditions. It's MY fault they sold me sick Leopard Geckos. It's MY fault they sell Crypto infected animals. It's MY fault the management in the local SF area stores are sneaky, dishonest and fraudulent. It's MY fault that these stores were held accountable for thier own actions. It's MY fault you aren't getting what YOU wanted. I don't believe I failed anything... quite the contrary!

THIS is why I hate democrats... they get a hold of some human interest angle and use it to perpetuate our progress towards a totalitarian state, citing individual sob stories as being validation for restrictions and laws and regulations that impede the lives of everyone else for NO DAMN REASON.

I'm sure the Democrats hate you too, Seamus. I know if I were a Democrat I sure would!

Seamus, I am growing weary of your infantile tantrums and false sense of magnanimity. I regret to inform you that the entire universe does NOT revolve around you or your foul mouth. It must be very lonely for you to live inside that big BLACK HOLE.

 

[Ken Harbart]

Folks, this is a discussion that can continue without the personal attacks from either side. However, if y'all choose to continue along the route this one seems to be headed, I have no problems with killing the thread.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

SORRY...

You're right, Ken... I apologize for "going off." Don't worry, I'm done with this thread anyway.

 

[Seamus Haley]

The most insidious and powerful threats to our ability to continue with the practice of our hobby... or any hobby that comes under public skeptiscism at any point...

Are not the obvious ones.

The real threats are those that seem to lay dormant, seem to be inoccuous and innocent as they subtly work their manipulations from behind the scenes.

I said something to the effect of "Kaplan is dangerous because she gives the impression of being a hobbiest." at one point...

Marcia, you are identical to Kaplan.

You damage the industry, the ability of the individual to own an animal... And you do it while lying through your teeth and claiming that it's not the case.

If you actually gave half a damn about anyone else in the business or even the animals themselves, you would have found another route.

You're not stupid either, so ignorance of the potentials and the consequences is not an excuse.

You performed a series of actions that I personally find to be morally reprehensible and that will have a wide spread effect on every single person who owns reptiles in any capacity across the entire country... a negative effect.

Yet you continue to crusade as if you can somehow find yourself to be in the ethical right by your deeds... Disgusting lies that I can only assume you are concocting in order to garner public support for your cause by deccieving your prospective supporters.

You crying is not a fact that's relevant to what you claimed would be justification for your actions that have and will continue to debilitate the pet industry.

A list of geckos with cute names... is utterly meaningless.

Either provide actual concrete facts that would justify your actions, rather than just stories about you getting upset easily... or just admit that you performed an action and started a series of events that will debilitate the Reptile trade for years to come.

You are exactly like those lying, two faced psuedoherpers who perform actions that are supported by antihuman groups and keep saying that you're not.

The sad part is, some people might even believe you.

Incidentally Marcia (Enemy to reptiles), why would I feel compelled to obey a stricture you put in place asking nobody to comment? What possible authority do you have to enforce it, what reasoning can you give for demanding that you be allowed to spout meaningless drivel for two pages in an attempt to try and convince someone that your efforts were a good thing without giving others an oppurtunity for rebuttal?

Herp laws only hurt the herps and the herpers.

Any action that condones or encourages interference in the trade must be understood to be perpetuated by people who want the trade halted or impeded.

Marcia encouraged a situation that has resulted in regulations being passed.

Marcia is not an individual who was doing ANYTHING in the best interest of anyone but herself and her rabid fanatical sign waving friends.

 

[Missymonkey]

I don't mean this sarcastically or snotty like

Seamus, what would you have done if you had discovered the poor condition and handleing of the various herps/animals at Petco?

I guess I simply don't understand what could have been done differently so that the animals would have been better taken care of and the industry would have been protected.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Seamus, what would you have done if you had discovered the poor condition and handleing of the various herps/animals at Petco?

I guess I simply don't understand what could have been done differently so that the animals would have been better taken care of and the industry would have been protected.

She actually seemed to start off fairly well, although I can tell you right now that the self righteous types are usually ignored as bad noise, most of them are lunatics who have a very minimal grasp of the animals involved anyway and just like making problems...

However, she obviously got past that point and was allowed to educate some management and associates, it's only logical for the Petco types to want to remove problems from sight ANYWAY but it's doubly logical when there's a known P.I.T.A. cutomer coming around who had, up to that point, done nothing but made it harder for them to operate and essentially harassed people with emails and in the individual stores.

Had she just kept her mouth shut after the fact and given a reasonable period of time for changes to be made... remember now that she had literally JUST finished giving her informational talk on herps, she probably would have been allowed to continue to educate the associates and the problem would have been corrected to a large degree.

However, she went and made public and negative statements immediately after she got home... No corporation would allow her back, it looks, from the standpoint of the company, as if she is NOTHING but trouble. What could have been positive for the animals was ruined because Marcia went and burned bridges, no company will invite someone back or even pay much attention to them after a situation like that occurs.

The second thing she should have done, instead of focusing on what must be honestly regarded as minimal evidence and the sob stories that she felt a need to cry over... Is get some concrete numbers. That list of a few dozen leopard geckos with cute (by which I mean useless and fairly stupid sounding) names represents what portion of Petco's total reptile sales? Heck, what potion of their total Leopard Gecko sales? They buy animals by the tens of thousands, a list of fifty or even a hundred is fairly meaningless. What she SHOULD have done is requested a list of actual numbers; purchased by petco, arriving DOA, dying in the store, being returned dead. From those numbers, it's easy enough to knock up a fairly simple set of numbers showing how better suppliers and better care, while slightly more costly in the immediate, save money long term.

Instead, she made a public stink, communicated with tabloid style "journalists" took the word of those same people who were unable to care for the animals to begin with as being unbiased fact and aligned herself with rabid animal rights groups to bring legal action against the corporation and into the media which could potentially result in NOBODY being able to own the animals.

Every state has animal protection laws... Every state has individuals employed in law enforcement who make sure they are abided by... if this Petco was that bad, it would have been shut down without the need for any trial, without a media circus and without affecting anyone other than the individuals working at that specific store.

But it wasn't.

So the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that there was not signifigant enough evidence to impose criminal charges and the civil matter and all it's accompanying crap in terms of the media and the stupid, STUPID laws that have cropped up were something that was pressured by public pressure. Public pressure is usually the result of a story on the news, which people take as being factual and then the uneducated masses sign petitions without reading them because some people...

Like my new buddy Marcia...

Will use any excuse and the ignorance of the general public to further their own deviant socio-political goals.

Marcia McGuinness... Honorary PETA member... wonder if I could get away with it on the BOI.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION!

Seamus, what would you have done if you had discovered the poor condition and handleing of the various herps/animals at Petco?

We all already know how YOU feel about me, and my situation with PetCorp. (yawn…) But you have not answered the question! What WOULD you have done? Instead, you have done what you predictably do and turned this into another “Marcia is personally responsible for the entire future of the herp industry” scenario. I had NO IDEA how powerful I was! WOW!

Had you allowed me to finish the story before you belligerantly went “trigger happy” and declared open season on me, you would have found that I did NOT file ANYTHING against PetCorp. It was the two employees that were terminated from those local Petco stores for trying to help the sick animals instead of putting them in the freezer, and refusing to knowingly sell geckos that were infected with Crypto and birds that had psittacosis. It was their lawsuit that exposed the TRUTH.

Those stores were blantantly selling sick geckos that had diseases that have a potential for infecting other reptiles in epidemic proportions, and birds with a disease that can be contracted by human beings, for God's sake! The deserve to be shut down for selling animals! BTW, this case has not even gone to court yet! The DA’s office has only filed a lawsuit.

As far as having the “information” on the statistical numbers you seem to be obsessed with, any information I do have is incorrect because it was falsified by the managers of the Petco stores in question in order to cover their a$$es. I have a hunch that even if I DID have that information and posted it, you would call me a liar again anyway.

You keep referring to “stupid little gecko names.” I would like to suggest you re-read that section of this thread so you can see that it was a letter written by Tom Morris to PetCorp and those were the names of HIS Leos that died of Cryptosporidia contracted from an infected gecko purchased from PetCo. Even if they were the names of my geckos, SO WHAT????? I'll guess that even you have a toad named 'Fluffy!"

It is extremely obvious that we feel differently on this subject, Shameus. I am much more concerned with the reptiles we ALL love and the ‘fired’ employees who tried to help them than I am about making a complete a$$ of myself on this forum.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Are you illiterate Marcia?

mouth shut after the fact and given a reasonable period of time for changes to be made

the problem would have been corrected to a large degree.

YOU blew your chances of correcting it.

YOU had a chance to make things better and you decided to continue to make negative comments.

NO company would be inclined to even so much as allow someone into their store if they got badmouthed like that in public.

You may be the antithesis of what's good for the industry and good for the animals but you're not THAT stupid to have not been able to see the consequences of your actions, think about it... You say you want to help, they let you help, everything goes pretty well. Of course they hide the problems but remember, you haven't told them how to fix them when they do so... They let you into their store, let you speak to their employees, let the employees speak back and express the problems and you go and make it all public and put it in the most negative light possible.

When you work in this sort of situation, you need to keep in mind that they are interested primarily in making money. All businesses are. They are willing to welcome your help but by turning around and making what should have been confidential information public, you violated a trust and caused more problems than provided solutions.

Incidentally, I know six letters is a whole lot... but even you can get my name right... And of course, it was just a typo... each and every time, because you wouldn't be that ignorant, petty and juvenile, would you?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

ONE MORE TME... JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION

No, I'm not illiterate, Seamus. It should read exactly the way you originally wrote it:

Had she just kept her mouth shut after the fact..

she probably would have been allowed to continue to educate the associates and the problem would have been corrected to a large degree.

Once again you have done nothing but state your opinion of me and my actions. You still have not answered the question!


WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

NO company would be inclined to even so much as allow someone into their store if they got badmouthed like that in public.

True... but it's not a problem because I would not even want to go in to their store again anyway. Ever.


WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

YOU blew your chances of correcting it.

I don't think I blew anything... I just came to the realization that I could never even come close to correcting their problem. It is gonna take a bigger and badder authority to make them correct their problem, and perhaps that authority has already stepped in.

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

The Petco stores in the SF area that were cited are criminals. They have comitted a crime. They have broken the law by deliberately and knowingly refusing the proper care necessary for the health and well-being of the animals in their store, and knowingly selling them when they are sick and infected with disease and/or parasites. They broke the law by wrongfully terminating employees for refusing to break the law. When criminals break the law and get caught, they must be accountable for their actions. Plain and simple.

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

Have you or anyone else reading this thread ever seen the 'Animal Precinct' program on Animal Planet? You know, the one where some idiot has their poor dog chained up in the back yard, so emaciated and dehydrated it can barely raise its head and is so tick infested is is low on blood? The program where a concerned neighbor calls the authorities to come an investigate? Then after the investigation they take the pitiful dog to get treatment and arrest the owner for violating the law?

Who is responsible, Seamus? Is it the arresting officer? Is it the Vet that saved the dog's life? Is it the concerned neighbor? Is it the film crew or the network that airs the program? According to your misguided way of thinking, it most certainly is NOT the dog's owner that is responsible for his actions! Noooooo! It is the fault of the 'evil' concerned neighbor or the 'bully' police officers. According to you, the whole problem lies with the stupid law that protects the dog in the first place!

Well, I didn't write the law, nor did I arrest anybody. I certainly didn't break any laws! I was just a concerned neighbor trying to make something right. The only thing I am guilty of is having the false sense of notion I could make a difference.

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

 

[KelliH]

A crying shame

Marcia, I commend you for what you have tried to do regarding PetCO's criminal actions. I also breed and raise leopard geckos and BTW Seamus, a few of mine have names also! Man, Seamus, have you forgotten that these are living, breathing creatures we are talking about? They are not shiny jewelry or bright, trendy clothes or cute stuffed toys they are alive! Dude, please take a step back from your self righteous tirade and THINK. Are you really so cold and unfeeling towards these geckos as you appear? What if you were in the same pet store and saw ematiated puppies living in their own runny crap and puke and basically dying a slow and agonizing death? Would your reaction be the same? Marcia did what she felt she needed to do in order to stop this abuse and I respect her greatly for that. I understand you don't agree with her methods but surely you agree with her reasoning behind the methods?

 

[Seamus Haley]

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

It's been said several times but apparantly you are unable to pick up on it, despite the fact that it's pretty obvious.

I would have continued the educational aspect and not badmouthed the company before they had a chance to correct it.

There... said so even you can read and understand.

The Petco stores in the SF area that were cited are criminals. They have comitted a crime.

Then why is it a civil case?

Why didn't animal control officers simply sieze these animals?

You said they were called many times, if it were bad enough to warrant criminal charges, it never would have ended up being a civil matter.

Seamus, have you forgotten that these are living, breathing creatures we are talking about?

No Kelli, I have not forgotten they are living, breathing creatures.

I also have not forgotten that a list of a few dozen of them represents a miniscule fraction of a percent of the total population that's in captivity in the United States. Or that the private sector has consistently outbred the zoos for the last two decades. Or that education and understanding and the willingness to support appropriate conservation often arises from a firsthand interaction with an animal rather than a television program.

The fact remains that what Marcia did has a very minimal positive impact and an enormous negative one.

Yes, it was bad that the animals were in conditions that were unhealthy.

Yes, it's bad when animals get sick and die.

Yes, it is also a reality that low cost animals don't stand the same chance of seeing a vet as high cost animals. An unfortunate reality but a reality.

No, none of that makes it appropriate to damage the entire industry and ALL the animals contained within it's scope.

It's really a situation where the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. While I certainly reccognize the fact that leopard geckos are living creatures... They are also animals, they are not humans and should not be assigned the same intrinsic value.

Further... if this action is even successful against the company... All it will do is increase sales for all the stores just over the city limits, forcing them to double up the number of animals they keep in stock, resulting in more health problems.

Petco is not going to be put out of buisness. Petco is not going to signifigantly change their corporate policies, which are technically already in place and simply aren't followed much of the time.

The little guy who produces and sells quality animals with decent information will go under with some of these idiotic laws because he doesn't have those dogfood based profits to cover his losses.

The only thing herp laws do... is hurt herpers and herps.

Heck, it's a situation I know well myself. Ever seem Massachusetts' herp laws? What can be kept, what can't be kept, what requires a permit? It's no coincidence that Massachusetts has the densest human population in New England but all the more reccognizeable reptile dealers and breeders are in New Hampshire and Vermont.

The only possible outcomes from this will be negative. It won't impact Petco in any signifigant way but it will harm everyone else.

Are you really so cold and unfeeling towards these geckos as you appear?

Those few dozen out of the tens of thousands Petco sells and the thousands they have sold even in that area since that could have been helped but won't be because of the foolish actions Marcia supported and encouraged?

Yes, I suppose in some ways I am. When it comes to fifty leopard geckos versus twenty thousand leopard geckos and every other reptile I own... Yeah, I think I assign a lesser importance to the smaller number of animals.

I understand you don't agree with her methods but surely you agree with her reasoning behind the methods?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

So is the road to PETA's ideal America.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Which reminds me...

If we're just going to type the same questions back and forth, there's one you have yet to answer Marcia.

When there are bills being considered that would ban the private ownership of reptiles, will you apologize and admit your mistakes?

When there are good people who lose their businesses, will you apologize and admit you did something wrong?

When people's pets are confiscated and euthanized after becoming illegal to own, will you apologize?

And when (if) you do apologize...

Do you think it will help fix what you did?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

When there are bills being considered that would ban the private ownership of reptiles, will you apologize and admit your mistakes? When there are good people who lose their businesses, will you apologize and admit you did something wrong? When people's pets are confiscated and euthanized after becoming illegal to own, will you apologize?

Since the likelihood of all of this happening is highly unlikely, the answer to your questions is:

NO.

 

[KelliH]

Seamus-

I respect your views and opinions. But you did not answer the question:

What if you were in the same pet store and saw ematiated puppies living in their own runny crap and puke and basically dying a slow and agonizing death?

Also, what does this:

Or that the private sector has consistently outbred the zoos for the last two decades.

have to do with this topic? Maybe I am missing something so please explain I can be a little slow at times so you won't be hurting my feelings if you do!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

When it comes to fifty leopard geckos versus twenty thousand leopard geckos and every other reptile I own... Yeah, I think I assign a lesser importance to the smaller number of animals.

Seamus, since you seem to like hypothetical scenarios and statitisical figures, I have a "story problem" for you. (Although I'm sure you will side-step this question, too.)

Let's say fifty Leopard Geckos that are infected with Cryptopsoridia come in contact with fifty other reptiles (each) in pet stores, and infect them. Then, those infected reptiles are purchased and brought home by individuals who have an average of eight other herps in their home that subsequently become infected. How many cryptosporidia infected reptiles are there now? Do the math....

Need some help? answer: (50X50)X8=20,000

So I guess you are right! Fifty sick leopard geckos (the smaller number) should be assigned a lesser importance than than twenty thousand leopard geckos!

 

[Seamus Haley]

What if you were in the same pet store and saw ematiated puppies living in their own runny crap and puke and basically dying a slow and agonizing death?

If there were animals in those conditions, they would have been confiscated by animal control.

Animal control did not confiscate the animals so the animals were not in those conditions.

As such, no parallel can be drawn... However, in that situation, I would call animal control, animal control would confiscate the dogs.

Or that the private sector has consistently outbred the zoos for the last two decades

It has an impact on this subject.

When laws are put in place that restrict private ownership, the accomplishments of the private sector will be impeded.

Since the likelihood of all of this happening is highly unlikely, the answer to your questions is:

NO.

Unlikely?

Pet store owners and employees in California and other areas are already having problems. Proposals have already cropped up in other communities across the country.

So I guess you are right! Fifty sick leopard geckos (the smaller number) should be assigned a lesser importance than than twenty thousand leopard geckos!

Marcia, since you had an oppurtunity to correct the problem and screwed it up by being more trouble than you were worth, you're really in no position to claim any sort of position where your actions were motivated by any altruistic nonsense.

You support anti-pet legislation.

You promulgate anti-pet propaganda.

You are trying to damage herps, not help them.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

If there were animals in those conditions, they would have been confiscated by animal control. Animal control did not confiscate the animals so the animals were not in those conditions.

How do you know they didn't? Seamus, you are insunuating I am a liar AGAIN!