Heavy parasite load found in ball python from Ed Clark

[cookreptiles]

Absolutely, and I have no doubts whatsoever about your integrity. Would you think it would be the right thing to do for this hypothetical person to post about such a matter on the BOI? If you (and others I respect) think that is a perfectly ok and acceptable thing to do in a situation like this then perhaps my brain is foggy from lack of sleep and a rather irritating migraine headache I have had all day, but in my state of mind at the moment, I have to say that is not only an unprofessional thing to do, but in basic terms, well, it was a really, really uncool thing to do as well. Again, maybe I am missing something here, and I do understand your reasoning about wanting to warn others and give them a heads up to have fecals done on snakes purchased from Ed, but should not that be something for Ed to do himself, and not on a public forum, but rather privately via telephone and email?

If someone found parasites in an animal I sent them and we were not able to come to terms privately I would expect them to post about it here. That's what the BOI is for whether I like it or not.

If I am uncool for posting a heads up to those who have purchased from Ed I'm okay with that. I personally feel that it is a serious issue, and I would certainly want to know if someone else found this level of parasite infestation in a snake that came from the same source as one of my own animals.

I would like to think that Ed would take the opportunity to privately contact his customers upon my notification of the issue, but I can't trust that that would happen and I let him know that I would be posting about it here beforehand.

 

[cookreptiles]

I know you added other balls to your collection after you recieved those babies from me...did you do fecals on them?

I just got two cbb ball pythons in Daytona a few weeks ago--those are the only snakes that I have added to my collection since I got these females from you. Both snakes are in quarantine and haven't been in contact with, handled, cleaned or fed on the same night as any of the other animals.

 

[KelliH]

I'm back. Stupid insomnia.

If someone found parasites in an animal I sent them and we were not able to come to terms privately I would expect them to post about it here.

What terms did you and Ed not agree to regarding this matter?

If I am uncool for posting a heads up to those who have purchased from Ed I'm okay with that. I personally feel that it is a serious issue, and I would certainly want to know if someone else found this level of parasite infestation in a snake that came from the same source as one of my own animals.

Well, I guess I am speaking more from the standpoint of a professional reptile breeder. Hear me out for a minute here. I have received animals before from extremely reputable breeders and these animals had heavy parasite loads and/or coccidia. I got some bearded dragons in from one of the top names in our industry, did a routine fecal a day or two after receiving them, to find that to my horror they were LOADED with coccidia, AND hookworms! Once I purchased some geckos from one of the top breeders in the world, they came in with pinworms, strongyloides and a bacterial infection. In both cases I did notify the breeders and in one case I was given some compensation, but I would never have come here on the BOI to make a post about it. Here is why:

I have been working with a fairly large collection of reptiles for nearly 15 years now. I have, on more than one occasion in the past 15 years, performed routine fecal floats on animals and found, for instance, pinworm eggs in the float. These are cb animals here, and I give my animals the best of care but still, somehow, they did get pinworms. I know it may seem stupid for me to be so open about it but I don't care, I am trying to make a point here: There but for the grace of God go I, or you.

Does any of that make sense?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

I know it may seem stupid for me to be so open about it

Kelli.... not in the least, and dont ever let those words be seen again on here or i will slap you with a fish. ^_-

That, is what a good keeper is all about. being open and honest about their collection and animals, past present and future. you get points in my book for that.

 

[cookreptiles]

did the breeders that you got those animals from assure you ahead of time that their animals were "the cleanest you will find?"

in my opinion a heavy parasite load is far more serious than random pinworm eggs. random pinworms eggs can occur in well cared for cb animals but heavy parasite loads including coccidia normally do not unless those animals were kept in deplorable conditions and likely exposed to ch or wc animals.

i notified ed of the parasites and him to alert his customers of the possible parasites in their snakes. ed denied that the parasites came from his snakes. so i did what i said i was going to do and i posted here.

 

[bigdogg]

Not to make this thread any longer but. Even if God himself says these are good animals if you want to make sure you have healthy animals always do all the test right when you get them. Cause 99% of the reptile dealers/breeders out there don't care about what happens 10 months later. But in this case as you aren't asking for anything I can understand your posting here Emily. If you tried to contact Ed and tell him that they had parasites and warn him and tell him to check his and warn other people about the animals they have. If Ed said ok I will check into it then so be it. I am not sure as I haven't done all the research on this as I am dead tired right now. But I haven't seen any other threads about parasites in Ed's animals or animals that came from Ed. Could be cause everyone don't do all the test or have them done in that matter. Ed could be lying about all his animals being clean or may not be. The ball pythons you got could be Captive Bred but from a WC parent. Still makes them Captive Bred and Born just have a little bit of wild still in them. No offense a lot can happpen in 10 months. Could be your fault somehow or could be his. Without the test in the beginning we will all never know. I can see why you started this thread but can see Ed's point of view about it to. So all and all not saying ed is perfect but his animals may or maynot have parasites. We won't know unless Ed lets someone pay for a vet to inspect every animal he owns. Which no one will go to those extreme measures unless they have tons of money to blow. Pretty much you will most likely not buy from Ed any more. Instead buy from 1 of the other thousands of breeders/dealers in this industry. Sorry that ur snakes have problems. Hope it pans out for ya.

John Rieger

 

[frankykeno]

Granted Emily has had these snakes for a number of months but tell me please how snakes that were captive bred by Ed (as he represented them to be), that Emily properly quarantined on arrival, that have not been exposed to any new incoming snakes into her collection over these months she owned them, got infected with tapeworms, coccidia AND strongyloides? We're not talking some simple case of pinworm here. How does this happen?

Emily did contact Ed and got what seems a fairly lukewarm response back that he couldn't "remember" what they were. Shouldn't there be some sort of records if he produced these 05's?

 

[bud mierkey]

simple answer cut and dry

Clean as they come means as clean as others good cb.
remember parasites can be transfered from the mother to the neonate.
quarantine and do a fecal it would have showed up saving the reptile lots of suffering.

i was told the total loss of one of my collections was not due to the bad sick snakes i was sold by a now bad guy,IT was my fault for not quarantining them first and haveing them tested totally my fault.

also please do not listen to wess he is a very nasty hatefull person that likes to start fights then run.
he is a well known troublemaker.

 

[rabernet]

also please do not listen to wess he is a very nasty hatefull person that likes to start fights then run.
he is a well known troublemaker.

I have to disagree with you on your assessment of Wes. I do not post often, but I read quite a bit here. Wes WILL hold your feet to the fire, but I've never seen him do anything other than saying it like he sees it. If that makes someone uncomfortable, than so be it.

With that said, Ed HAS sent out snakes in the past with mites, and all but admitted that they came because he did not quarantine some newly received animals. You can read his admission to this here: http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=44188

Granted, mites are an entirely different ball of wax than Emily's situation, but it is just another example of animals sent out with parasites, external ones, but still parasites, and an admission that he did not at that time practice quarantine.

Emily is not asking Ed for any compensation, rather giving others who have received animals from Ed, and who have not had fecals run in the past, a heads up that they may want to have their animals checked. Given Ed's track record (from my point of view), I certainly would appreciate the heads up, had I received any animals from Ed.

 

[Griz]

Ed, I agree with you that after a year you're not responsible. Too many variables can occur during this time frame that could have created this situation.

With that said, I think it would be a very good idea for you to post 5-6 fecal exam reports from your vet so that this board can see that you truly do test your animals. This would go a long way toward your credibility and showing that this situation could have been created elsewhere.

As for bringing this situation here, I am torn. If it had been me, I would have brought the situation to light with Ed and then given him an opportunity to make this right. If the poster is 100% certain that her husbandry/feed etc did not cause the situation then after a week or so I would have posted a similar thread. It's obvious that she is not seeking monetary reimbursement from Ed so her only real motive here has to be education.

If I had purchased an animal from Ed then you can be darn sure I would be having it tested right now.

Griz

 

[Griz]

Ed, I should have said 5-6 fecal exams that were done prior to your notification by Emily.

Griz

 

[frankykeno]

Griz, I do believe the timeline is that she did bring this to Ed about a week ago when it occurred and the tests were done. Ed was, from what I can read, given time to respond. A response that he isn't sure or can't remember if the snakes involved in this trade were in fact produced by him (as he stated) or in fact came from elsewhere is for me, under these sorts of circumstances, not something I'd be terribly thrilled with either.

I do have two snakes in our collection that came to us originally from Ed's collection. They'll both be having fecals done for our peace of mind.

As far as feeding, it is my understanding that Emily produces her own feeder rats. If these three things can come through a feeder animal, then would it not stand to reason that other snakes in her collection would be afflicted in a similar manner?

I really would like to be educated properly on how tapeworms, strongyloides and coccidia suddenly show up in a snake in a captive environment. I've been googling madly of course but I'd like to have a clear idea on this.

I do not believe Emily is looking for compensation or to be "difficult" about this but rather to simply inform other herpers of a possible risk (and personally I appreciate the warning).

 

[JudyC]

Clean as they come means as clean as others good cb.
remember parasites can be transfered from the mother to the neonate. quarantine and do a fecal it would have showed up saving the reptile lots of suffering.

Wow....so you're saying Ed's adult breeders are infested with parasites and passing them on to the babies he is selling. Good stuff to know.

Emily has fully owned that she should have had fecals done as soon as the snakes arrived in her care. At the time that she did the trade, Ed was still charming everyone and convincing them he had a huge breeding facility and produced all his own babies that he had for sale. Now we know differently.

How many of us have ever seen Ed stand up and willingly take responsibility for any error or lie he has made? He only does so when confronted publicly and eventually finds himself unable to talk his way out of whatever it is. And even then, the subject is usually completely ignored by him at that point until it finally fades away. He made it perfectly clear that he would not take the least amount of responsibility for the parasites found...much less take the time and go through the humbling experience of contacting all of his customers to let them know they should have fecals done on any animals purchased from him.

I don't think he knowingly sold Emily snakes with parasites. But I DO absolutely believe the parasites came from his facility....either because the animals were NOT captive bred by him but came from some unknown source....or because his quarantine and cleanliness practices are SO lax that he allows his own captive bred babies to be exposed to whatever nastiness his imports and resell animals bring in. (OR...his breeders are already infected to begin with and are passing it on to their babies....as this member so eloquently pointed out. )

 

[Jim O]

No, but it is your fault you didn't have them checked when you got them, or at least sooner than this.

That's a diaper load Erin. Not only did Ed Clark say his animals "as clean as you will find" but tapeworm eggs are not always or even shed shed. Emily could easily have had a negative fecal and still had a tapeworm.

Lets look at the facts, shall we?

• Emily acquires a group of '05 females from Ed Clark that are allegedly CBB by Ed Clark
• These animals do not thrive in her care
• These animals are kept separate from her collection
• Ed deals in CH imports
• Ed Clark is known not to have the best, if any, quarantine procedures (see the link to BP.net)
• Less than a year later one of these animals turns out to have a mature tapeworm
• Tapeworm is an extremely uncommon problem in small CBB collections of snakes

There are three likely possibilities as I see it.

1. Ed Clark sent Emily CH animals
2. The animals that were sent to Emily were truly CBB but were infected through cross contamination with CH animals due to Ed Clark's poor or absent quarantine technique
3. Tapeworms were acquired in an essentially closed collection

My money is on number 1 or number 2 based on the odds.

 

[Jim O]

Not only did Ed Clark say his animals "as clean as you will find" but tapeworm eggs are not always or even shed shed.

should have read

Not only did Ed Clark say his animals "as clean as you will find" but tapeworm eggs are not always or even often shed.

 

[XDeus]

I'm having a difficult time understanding why so many people are beating up Emily over this. She's not asking for anything from Ed, but is just trying to warn Ed's other customers that they might have parasite problems. I understand that 10 months have passed since acquiring the animals, but considering Ed's response:

Emily, thanks for the message. dont remember if the Balls that I sent you were captive bred or captive hatched. will look into it to find out and get back to you.

Apparently he never bothered to find out and get back to Emily which is why she decided to post this on the BOI. And remember this was AFTER he sold them to her as CB from his collection. Surely he must have records of what he produced. I know if someone accused me of selling them snakes with parasites, I would at LEAST have the parents tested and share the results of the tests.

But maybe this is another one of Ed's "Gifts that keep on giving".

 

[Wilomn]

The ball pythons you got could be Captive Bred but from a WC parent. Still makes them Captive Bred and Born just have a little bit of wild still in them. John Rieger

John, John, John, surely you know that this is blatantly untrue? Do you really believe, after several conversations in chat and several others on TRR, that Captive Born and Bred can have ANYTHING to do with being imported?

CBB can ONLY be captively bred and born in CAPTIVITY. It can NOT be an egg laid from a wild caught mother and hatched in captivity, that is CB; captive born. There is a WORLD, literally, of difference between them.

I know you want to be helpful, but your youthful exuberance is telling again, much as it did the other night when one of your boas unexpectedly died but you didn't want to bother with a necropsy.

Some things really should be done and knowing your definitions is certainly one of them. Knowing why your animals die for no reason is another.

Please get your facts straight before you tell someone else they are wrong.

When you are so blatantly wrong it makes all of us who have tried so hard to teach you look and feel bad.

 

[Clay Davenport]

No, but it is your fault you didn't have them checked when you got them, or at least sooner than this.

Jim's right, this is a diaper load. Tell me, do you, as a matter of routine, have a fecal done immediately on every animal you receive?
If you do then congrats, you are among the probably 0.01% of people who do.
When it comes to CB animals, or at least purchased as CB, virtually no one has a fecal done right off the bat. If after a period of time conditions suggest a fecal is warranted, then it might be done, but rarely will you find a person that always has a fecal on every CB snake they purchase.

It's all too easy to say you should have had a fecal done in the first place once parasites have been discovered, but the fact is virtually no one does that at all. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[Wilomn]

in my opinion a heavy parasite load is far more serious than random pinworm eggs. random pinworms eggs can occur in well cared for cb animals but heavy parasite loads including coccidia normally do not unless those animals were kept in deplorable conditions and likely exposed to ch or wc animals.

i notified ed of the parasites and him to alert his customers of the possible parasites in their snakes. ed denied that the parasites came from his snakes. so i did what i said i was going to do and i posted here.

It seems to me that if mr. clark knows for certain that these parasites did not come from him that he must therefore also know EXACTLY which snakes he sold to Emily.

If he knows EXACTLY which snakes he sold to Emily then his prior statement about being unsure what snakes he traded her must be a lie, another lie.

mr. clark, would you care to explain how it is that you can know that the parasites did not come from any snake you had while at the same time being unable to recall exactly what snakes you sent to Emily?

It's been many hours since you last posted and someone as meticulous as you must surely have been able to locate all the pertinant documentation for this trade.

Please enlighten us.

 

[Stardust]

i notified ed of the parasites and him to alert his customers of the possible parasites in their snakes. ed denied that the parasites came from his snakes. so i did what i said i was going to do and i posted here.

That is what did it for me. Well that and the fact that now he is not sure what he sent her.
From Nov to Sept I would be a little iffy on writing on the BOI, probably wouldn't have if not for the exception of that quote.

She did contact Ed. Thus giving HIM a chance to do the right thing and make this right. HIM saying gee I better go check my records now and see who else may have gotten animals that at time, check my own animals to make sure. Then perhaps start contacting people so they can check their animals,
now THAT would have been a good response back to her IMO.

Instead she got an ego lined not my fault not my problem type of response. The BOI is the most widely seen here and can get to enough people who have bought from Ed to now have their animals checked and, again IMO, it tells a story as to Ed's business practices and thought processes so should be posted here.