Heavy parasite load found in ball python from Ed Clark

[Serafim]

Yes I would be interested to hear of the snakes progress as well..

 

[cookreptiles]

So far so good. The first female is finished with her treatment and the second two are about half way through theirs. They have a few days of Albon left and one more Panacur treatment. Once they are finished I will get their fecals retested to make sure that they are all clean. I know that coccidia can sometimes be hard to get rid of so I'm really hoping one treatment for each snake will do it.

The first female is back on her regular feeding schedule and the second two are just a few days away from their next meal. My vet said I could feed them as usual while on the Albon, but since they have to have it every day for a week and administering it is somewhat stressful and requires a tight grip on the snake's body I decided not to feed while they are on it in order to avoid the possibility of regurgitation.

 

[rabernet]

I see that Ed has paid his fine and is now able to post again.

Ed, care to answer the questions posed of you here, especially why you chose to post about Emily in the mod forum rather than here in front of your peers?

 

[SPJ]

I see that Ed has paid his fine and is now able to post again.

Ed, care to answer the questions posed of you here, especially why you chose to post about Emily in the mod forum rather than here in front of your peers?

He's too busy bumping up his BP ads to post in this thread.

 

[Wilomn]

I see that Ed has paid his fine and is now able to post again.

Ed, care to answer the questions posed of you here, especially why you chose to post about Emily in the mod forum rather than here in front of your peers?

I'd be willing to bet that Monsieur Jellyfish, ol spineless mr. clark, will avoid it.

But that's just me.

 

[Serafim]

I was kind of surprised to see the thread come to a screeching halt. I am glad it has started up once again so it stays fresh on ones mind.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Emily, I apologize for possibly rehashing what you've probably already covered, but I really don't want to wade through 18 pages to look for it. I was following this thread but had a lapse for quite awhile and it gives me a headache to read countless posts of pointless bickering, insults, and immature remarks that don't relate to your actual topic.

I see above that all 3 snakes from Ed were apparently positive for parasites since they are being treated by you. Did you test the rest of your collection to determine that only these 3 have them and not any of the others?

 

[JudyC]

I see above that all 3 snakes from Ed were apparently positive for parasites since they are being treated by you. Did you test the rest of your collection to determine that only these 3 have them and not any of the others?

The rest of Emily's collection showed negative for any internal parasites. Of the three she got from clark, two tested definitely positive, and the third was inconclusive because they could not get a fecal sample from it. At that point, the vet and Emily agreed that it was not wise to continue holding off treatment on a snake that was showing the same signs of parasitic infection as the other two it came with.

 

[DThomas]

Emily, I apologize for possibly rehashing what you've probably already covered, but I really don't want to wade through 18 pages to look for it. I was following this thread but had a lapse for quite awhile and it gives me a headache to read countless posts of pointless bickering, insults, and immature remarks that don't relate to your actual topic.

I see above that all 3 snakes from Ed were apparently positive for parasites since they are being treated by you. Did you test the rest of your collection to determine that only these 3 have them and not any of the others?

2 of the 3 snakes from Ed tested positive. She had not been able to test the 3rd yet due to no sample. She and her vet decided it would be wise to treat the 3rd anyways. She has had the rest of her collection tested and they were all negative. Only the snakes she received from Ed have tested positive.

 

[Seamus Haley]

The rest of Emily's collection showed negative for any internal parasites.

Eh... maybe. She tested nine other ball pythons that didn't come from Ed. I may have missed it but I don't recall hearing of an exact number of other animals. Eleven balls were tested, she owns at least twelve and the one loose ball is accounted for pretty well.

Does she own more than twelve ball pythons? Does she own any other reptiles or amphibians? Has she really taken the thorough approach and tested droppings from every rodent bin in her feeder colony?

 

[hhmoore]

True - 2 of the snakes received from Ed tested positive...but the second only for coccidia (no strongyles or tapes)

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Thanks to both of you for updating me. If I were in Emily's situation with those results, I too would be thinking strongly that the animals had been sold to me already carrying the parasites -- regardless of time elapsed. If they had come from another source (prey, new snakes added to the collection), it would be far too coincidental that JUST the snakes from Ed would have the parasites and not any of the others. Not to mention how heavily infested these animals were prior to treatment -- that kind of infestation needs time to generate. Because of that, I would think throughout that time to grow and multiply, other snakes would have developed them as well if they were coming from a shared source like home-grown rats. Yes, a lot of time has passed since the animals were originally recieved, so there is no way to 100% prove that Ed sent them already carrying parasites...but current evidence and common sense deductions would lead to that idea.

Emily only posted this to make others aware that they should have their animals tested and/or treated -- not to hurt Ed or ask for any kind of compensation, but to give others the chance to save their animals and make sure they're in perfect health. I see nothing wrong with this, and had I still owned the animal I bought from Ed last year, I would have been grateful for the warning and gotten her tested.

 

[Seamus Haley]

If they had come from another source (prey, new snakes added to the collection), it would be far too coincidental that JUST the snakes from Ed would have the parasites and not any of the others. Not to mention how heavily infested these animals were prior to treatment -- that kind of infestation needs time to generate. Because of that, I would think throughout that time to grow and multiply, other snakes would have developed them as well if they were coming from a shared source like home-grown rats.

Parasite transmission is obviously going to be more readily facilitated by animals that are in contact with one another. Given that she quaranteened the balls from Ed and the parasites with the particularly complicated transmission methods and life cycles were only found in one animal out of the two tested from Ed, where the much more easily transmitted parasite was found in two of the three... it still can be explained as a single animal becoming a host and passing it to those others it had contact with... and, as has been expolained if you take the time to read the posts about parasite life cycle, that could have potentially come from a random insect wandering into the "closed" (Ha! Ha ha ha!) rodent colony. The balls from Ed had the greatest contact with the balls from Ed, the fact that more than one is showing the nastiest and most easily passed around parasite is unsurprising and does NOT automatically lead to a conclusion about the source.

Parasite growth rates are dependant on many factors. The immune response and general condition of the host animal, the amount of nutrients being thrown their way, the environmental conditions play a big part in both their reproductive rate and the general well being of the host animal. A parasite load can remain at low levels and present no signifigant impact on the health of the host for years if the conditions are not ideal for it's growth. It can also explode into deadly serious health issues in a very short time frame when conditions are ideal for that to happen. Emily's husbandry methods and the detailed health of the animals are all big unknowns and as such, it leaves it pretty close to impossible to determine the duration of time that the parasites had been present simply by looking at the clinical effects.

I'm not defending Ed, my thoughts and feelings about him and his business practices have been made clear. I am just explaining that drawing firm conclusions about this situation is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

I am just explaining that drawing firm conclusions about this situation is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

That actually made me laugh out loud because I envisioned it...sounds like something my daughter would try when I'm not looking.

To me, it seems highly improbable that two insects carrying parasites wandered into a rat cage, were eaten by two rats, and those 2 rats were subsequently both fed to 2 of Ed's snakes.

I'm not nailing Ed to the cross here saying it is absolutely without a doubt his fault -- I'm just saying that if I were in Emily's position and had the facts that she has, I would think the same thing and that it was leading back to Ed. One big reason being that he can't even remember whether he sent her CH or CBB animals and hasn't offered to produce scans of his veterinary lab work from the "random negative fecals" he has gotten from his collection.

 

[hhmoore]

no 2 insects or 2 rats involved Jen...only 1 snake was shown to have tapeworms and strongyles. Coccidia (for which the 2 tested were positive) is easily passed through cross contamination.

 

[Seamus Haley]

no 2 insects or 2 rats involved Jen...only 1 snake was shown to have tapeworms and strongyles. Coccidia (for which the 2 tested were positive) is easily passed through cross contamination.

Yeah, could have very easily been one insect.

... or one outside rodent. I get that she maintains her own feeder colony but I do not know of anyone who has ever really struck the perfect balance of rodents produced to rodents required. There's always either a surplus being frozen or the oddball outside rodent needing to be bought if everything is going to eat that week. Often both, as conficting as that may seem to be.

 

[Wilomn]

I'll take the other side of the coin again Seamus.

I'll say that since she's tested all of her other snakes, the nine that did not come from mr. clark, and all were clean, that she DID get parasite ridden snakes from mr. clark.

I find it as unlikely that she got them from her rats as ....... well as a million to one shot coming through three times in a row.

Also, and this is BIG, he can't "remember" if he gave her the promised captive born and bred future holdback breeders from his own collection or wild caught imports. I, personally, am positive that he DOES remember giving her wild caught imports AS captive born and bred future holdback breeders from his own collection.

mr. clark ripped off Emily. She sent him 700.00 worth of captive born and bred crested geckos for, generously, 45.00 worth of imported ball pythons.

Hope it was worth it mr. clark.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I shrugged at the computer monitor Wes.

The only difference of opinion I think most the non-insane star wars LARPers are having comes down to how much of their impressions about a person they are willing to utilize in drawing a conclusion. Character is certainly important and certainly defines how people respond to and interact with one another, it also is a good basis for determining what is likely or unlikely when trying to determine what a person may or may not have done. You place a great deal of importance and emphasis on your impression of people's character- and you are not wrong for doing so. A few people who have participated and come down on the fence rather than on either side just want more definitive proof before either drawing a conclusion to begin with or confirming what they *believe* to be likely.

Ed obviously lacks character and has shown a tendency towards dishonesty or at least an inclination to use ambiguous wording to give people the impression of things which are untruths, so that he has the out later of claiming that he hasn't told an outright lie. He's shown this many times over. That said, I'm one of those people who draws a pretty clear distinction between proof and evidence and suspicions. I believe Ed is dishonest and would like proof of that, 100%, no possible argument, damning proof. But I haven't seen it yet.

So... out of curiosity, for those who know what I mean by this... does Ed remind anyone else of Gubitz?

 

[Seamus Haley]

non-insane star wars LARPers

That ended up worded a bit strangely, I meant people who are not insane star wars LARPers.

Not that these Star Wars LARPers weren't insane... as the few who have shown up here can't seem to figure out when it is appropriate to break character.

 

[Wilomn]

I see your point, truly I do Seamus and ordinarily, I'd be right there with you.

But, on occasion, I do go with my gut. I am this time. My gut, which is quite expansive, combined with the evidence that we do have, makes me comfortable with MY, just mine, conclusions about mr. clark.

It's entirely possible that I'm wrong.

And that may have been a pig that just flew by.

I don't say you're wrong though, just that I'm right.

I know YOU'LL get it Seamus, I hope it's not too obscure for others.

We are splitting hairs here and mostly just for fun.