Heavy parasite load found in ball python from Ed Clark

[cookreptiles]

Possibly assuming Ed knew they had parasites. I believe Emily was trying to make the point that since they had parasites they could not be captive born as Ed described, which has been shown to be not necessarily the case.

I am not trying to make the point that these snakes might not be cbb. I don't know for sure what they are--I am wondering and asking Ed to answer this question. Some records, hatch dates, etc. would be much appreciated.

 

[cookreptiles]

Emily - the Panacur should deal with the strongyles, and the Albon is appropriate for coccidia. The tapeworms are the only thing not really strongly addressed at this point, and, as has already been stated, they may not show up on fecals anyway. Are you saying that your vet prescribed fenbendazole for tapeworms? That's news to me, but I don't have DVM after my name, either.
Sorry you have to go through this hassle...but it happens

The tapeworms did show up on the fecal--my vet actually showed me each parasite on the slide. The only two things he prescribed are Panacur and Albon so I assume that the Panacur was prescribed for both the strongyloides and the tapeworms.

 

[rabernet]

Possibly assuming Ed knew they had parasites. I believe Emily was trying to make the point that since they had parasites they could not be captive born as Ed described, which has been shown to be not necessarily the case.

Well, it certainly does make you go hmmmm doesn't it? I know I would wonder why an animal I believed to come from someone as a CBB baby was carrying three internal parasites when others in my collection that had been randomly tested were negative.

Honestly, we've discussed modes of transmission of these parasites - would any of you honestly expect to see the presence of all three parasites in an essentially closed colony (until she added two animals from Daytona, who are in quarantine) as a result of feeding your own closed colony of rats?

All three parasites? What are the odds? Or are the odds far greater that they arrived with these parasites that the vet said had to have been present a minimum of six months but more likely a year or more? We'll know more tomorrow after she gets the other two tested.

Wouldn't you go hmmmm? if the only three snakes in your colony that tested positive for these parasites came from the same source? Or if it came from her rats, were her odds so incredibly good that they only infected the animals she got from Ed?

It makes me go hmmmm? when Ed has to "check" to see what he really sent her. But she's not asking him for compensation. She wanted him to know so that he could warn his other customers. When he posted later that it didn't come from him (on the screen shot Judy provided) - it was pretty clear, he had no intention of notifying his customers that there was the "possibility" that he sent out animals with parasites and they should get their animals checked.

And still, Ed has not gotten back to Emily regarding these snakes, either privately or here on this thread.

 

[kmurphy]

I am not trying to make the point that these snakes might not be cbb. I don't know for sure what they are--I am wondering and asking Ed to answer this question. Some records, hatch dates, etc. would be much appreciated.

It wouldn't take too long the generate a fairly impressive history. You can never really be sure so you have to be able to trust the person you purchased from. I assume now that you don't trust Ed. I wouldn't either. It wouldn't take too long to generate a fairly impressive history. So IMO it wouldn't be of much value.

 

[kmurphy]

Well, it certainly does make you go hmmmm doesn't it?

I don't disagree with you Robin but for a BOI thread after such a long time the evidence should be inconclusive IMO. Is it fair to make a post the hurts someone's reputation and business because it looks like that's what happened. To be honest prior to this thread I didn't know how tapeworms were transmitted to reptiles(especially in a closed collection) and in the beginning I wasn't giving Ed the benefit of the doubt. However, it appears there is more to it and Hmmmm just isn't good enough.

 

[cookreptiles]

It wouldn't take too long the generate a fairly impressive history. You can never really be sure so you have to be able to trust the person you purchased from. I assume now that you don't trust Ed. I wouldn't either. It wouldn't take too long to generate a fairly impressive history. So IMO it wouldn't be of much value.

At the time of the trade I trusted Ed, thus the position I am in now. Of course I'm feeling rather sketchy about him at this point, having found parasites in one of the snakes he sent me, suspecting their presence in the others he sent, and him disappearing and not answering the question of whether these snakes are cbb or not. Sure he could generate a false history, but he won't even answer a simple question--how long does it take to check your records?

 

[Gecko_Den]

I don't disagree with you Robin but for a BOI thread after such a long time the evidence should be inconclusive IMO.

Kevin, is it safe to assume that you meant to say "the evidence should be conclusive"?

 

[kmurphy]

Kevin, is it safe to assume that you meant to say "the evidence should be conclusive"?

Thanks Sam, I guess I should stop posting for a while. Two mistakes in two threads is two too many.

 

[brucestephenson]

What a sad farce this is. This is quite obviously an assassination attempt upon Ed. None of you has presented any evidence that an intellectual person would convict Ed for these being parasites from his snakes. The accuser has admitted that a snake that she has not even proved to be Ed's might be the one that had a fece that contained parasites almost one year after a trade. You have not even proven a chain of evidence custody with the fece to even begin to mount a reasonable case against Ed. And you would have to provide alot further kinds of evidence to proceed after that. What a travesty of justice this is. Ed has absolutely no obligation to come on this thread to feed the hyenas and jackals that want to prey upon him to feed their sociopathic boredom and internet addiction. Take Captain Kirk's advice and get a life.

 

[SPJ]

What a sad farce this is. This is quite obviously an assassination attempt upon Ed. None of you has presented any evidence that an intellectual person would convict Ed for these being parasites from his snakes. The accuser has admitted that a snake that she has not even proved to be Ed's might be the one that had a fece that contained parasites almost one year after a trade. You have not even proven a chain of evidence custody with the fece to even begin to mount a reasonable case against Ed. And you would have to provide alot further kinds of evidence to proceed after that. What a travesty of justice this is. Ed has absolutely no obligation to come on this thread to feed the hyenas and jackals that want to prey upon him to feed their sociopathic boredom and internet addiction. Take Captain Kirk's advice and get a life.

4, 7 and 8.

Nuff said.

 

[NorthernRegius.com]

I don't see the post as an attempt to Hurt Ed... but the poster did not expect to discover that Ed may not be the source of the infestation either. According to the Op's vet: The infestation has been present 6 months or more this still means the snakes could have gotten infected whist in her possesion.

She has appeared to be so careful & until Jay and others posted more on the nature of parasite infestation cycles- I would have seen her precautions as iron-clad. But we have learned the meds she pretreats her rats with are not effective against the parasites.

Both parties need to test their collections & post the results. For Ed it should be simple to do so since he tests regularly & the OP has already promised to post her results when they come in.

I'm glad the this thread is in the BOI becuase I read it & the meat of the info here has taught me much to help protect my collection. I had thought that keeping cages clean, pre-treating all new arrivals for mites while in quarentine & having a fecal done was enough. Now I know better. Looks like anyone who feeds live takes a chance on internal parasites. Looks like since I have a few pesky live feeders, I should do periodic tests.

I hope that those reading this thread look beyond names and into the opportunity to improve procedures. V/R- Deb

 

[cookreptiles]

She has appeared to be so careful & until Jay and others posted more on the nature of parasite infestation cycles- I would have seen her precautions as iron-clad. But we have learned the meds she pretreats her rats with are not effective against the parasites.

Even so, the rest of my collection is unaffected by the rats they eat. Only the girls that came from Ed eat great but don't grow (a sign of tapeworms). I just can't wrap my head around how my feeders could cause 3 different types of parasite in one snake (and possibly the others that came with her) but not in any of the snakes in my collection that didn't come from Ed.

 

[hhmoore]

one rat consumed an insect that was harboring the parasites?
not all that hard to wrap your head around (nor am I saying that the parasites might not have infected the snake before it came to you)

 

[KelliH]

Is it fair to make a post the hurts someone's reputation and business because it looks like that's what happened.

No, it is not.

 

[Dr Owens]

Even so, the rest of my collection is unaffected by the rats they eat. Only the girls that came from Ed eat great but don't grow (a sign of tapeworms).

That's why you should get them all tested as soon as possible (I believe you said that you were going to do this). If all of them test positive, then it definitely leads merit to the notion that the animals were infected when they arrived in your collection.

I just can't wrap my head around how my feeders could cause 3 different types of parasite in one snake (and possibly the others that came with her) but not in any of the snakes in my collection that didn't come from Ed.

No one has said that your feeders caused 3 different types of parasitic infection in the one snake that has been tested. It was merely stated that parasitic infections can be caused by feeder animals. No accusations were made in that matter.

 

[Wilomn]

Did someone say FAIR?

Did someone on the BOI say FAIR?

Since when has FAIR EVER been a criteria for a BOI thread?

It looks like the parasites came from mr. clark.

No one has said that they conclusively did.

mr. clark said he had random fecal checks by a vet but he won't post the results. I wonder if there is something he doesn't want us to see?

Emily has posted the results from the one she has had tested so far and has said she will post results from the snakes that will be tested tomorrow. I believe she will.

mr. clark, who traded these snakes as captive born and bred future holdback breeders suddenly became unsure just which snakes they were when Emily informed him that at least one of the snakes she recieved from him had THREE different parasitic infections.

mr. clark told Emily that he would check his records and get back to her. Then the coward hid and has not shown his face in public again. Spineless if you ask me.

Some of you folks keep harping on Emily like she's the bringer of doom. She's done better than 90% of the people I talk to insofar as her sanitation, breeding her own feeders, quarentine proceedures and handling of her snakes.

Why don't you lighten up on her and wait for the results which she will post when she has them.

And let's all be serious. IF three of three have these parasites, even if two of three have them, those two or three having come from mr. clark, and none of the rest of her snakes test positive, do any of you REALLY think that mr. clark was not the origin of those parasites?

The odds of him not being the source are about the same as my never getting points again.

Let's wait and see what the vet says.

mr. clark, have you found your vet records or snake records yet?

 

[NorthernRegius.com]

Emily,
I believe you have the best interests of the animals at heart so when the results of the tests of your animals are in, post your results... it will leave less to conjecture.

Unfortunately without ruling out all other possiblities... whether the parasites happened at your place or Eds is a coin toss. It is possible that this may not even be answered 100%, but chances are better if you make the first move since you are the OP.

Sadly, Ed doesn't seem ready to post his tests, but that shouldn't stop you from posting yours. After seeing that the status of an animal- WC or CBB doesn't necessarily mean diddly when it comes to parasites... the stigma of the accusation shouldn't be that this is a business ender for ANYONE... only a headsup to fix an issue, and tend to the snakes, right?

After seeing the facts behind how parasites are transmitted:

1- Test all animals no matter if WC, CB or CBB
2- Random retests should be done if any live feeders in even a closed collection

With that being the case, then there really is nothing negative about this thread towards anyone & just an eyeopener to all to be vigilant in the keeping of our snakes, right? This could have happened to anybody.

 

[Seamus Haley]

It looks like the parasites came from mr. clark.

Not... really Wes.

Parasite transmission is open ended enough to leave nothing except doubts about the origin of anything found. The idea of a closed colony is absurd with anything less than lab quality conditions which... I'm going to go ahead and say aren't the case with anyone's home.

I do not trust her vet any further than he or she can be thrown. The medications chosen are a bit strange and for a vet to make a statement about the amount of time a large parasite load has been present is negligent at absolute best. Given that varying environmental conditions and the metabolism of the animal that's hosting the loads all play such an enormous part in the rate of reproduction and growth... I don't trust her vet if her vet actually made the six month statement.

I don't like Ed. I don't like the way he advertises things, I don't like it when a jobber claims to be a hardcore breeder, I don't like his lack of understanding about many aspects of reptile health and care, I don't like the company he chooses to keep. I'm also petty enough to say that I would like to see bad things happen to people I dislike. Ed going out of business would be the high point of my week. But I won't condemn anyone without some kind of factual support to back it up. I won't hyperbolize the few avaliable facts so that they fit an accusation of wrongdoing, I won't ignore what I know to be true about parasites and I won't take thirdhand information (Anyone know that "telephone" game kids play? Where one whispers something to the person next to them and mis-hearing things or some wiseass always leaves it as purple monkey dishwasher?) from a vet who's treatment course has me questioning their expertise, ability and credentials.

There's just nothing here to nail him on.

 

[Wilomn]

Emily,
I believe you have the best interests of the animals at heart so when the results of the tests of your animals are in, post your results... it will leave less to conjecture.

Unfortunately without ruling out all other possiblities... whether the parasites happened at your place or Eds is a coin toss. It is possible that this may not even be answered 100%, but chances are better if you make the first move since you are the OP.

Sadly, Ed doesn't seem ready to post his tests, but that shouldn't stop you from posting yours. After seeing that the status of an animal- WC or CBB doesn't necessarily mean diddly when it comes to parasites... the stigma of the accusation shouldn't be that this is a business ender for ANYONE... only a headsup to fix an issue, and tend to the snakes, right?

After seeing the facts behind how parasites are transmitted:

1- Test all animals no matter if WC, CB or CBB
2- Random retests should be done if any live feeders in even a closed collection

With that being the case, then there really is nothing negative about this thread towards anyone & just an eyeopener to all to be vigilant in the keeping of our snakes, right? This could have happened to anybody.

I disagree.

Ball pythons from the wild are KNOWN for coming in with huge parasite loads.

Captive bred and born ball pythons are known for the exact opposite.

It is entirely possible to find CBB ball pythons with parasites. All you have to do is ALSO import or sell imports. Who does that? mr. clark does.

In all the years I sold ball pythons, in all the hundreds and thousands of babies I sold, I don't think I ever treated a snake I produced myself for parasites. I spent hours and hours medicating imported babies.

Until mr. clark can prove that he did NOT sell infected babies, which will be tough since he can't seem to recall if he lied or told the truth about the snakes Emily has, we have only the results of Emily's testing to go on.

IF her snakes, that came from mr. clark, test positive and the snakes the did NOT come from mr. clark test negative, it's more than just likely they came from him that way, infected and misrepresented.

We'll know tomorrow.

 

[kmurphy]

Since when has FAIR EVER been a criteria for a BOI thread?

If it isn't a fair inquiry Wes, what good is it?