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Heavy parasite load found in ball python from Ed Clark

Oh... and here's a question I would like to see answered.

Emily, when you decided to create this thread, did you come to that decision completely on your own without being influenced by the opinion of anyone else... or did you happen to conversationally mention your situation to someone else who then encouraged you to post here?
 
Seamus Haley said:
There's just nothing here to nail him on.
Click to expand...

Yet.

Once we have tests from Emily's other snakes then it will be much clearer whether or not it is likely mr. clark traded her parasites along with the snakes.
 
kmurphy said:
If it isn't a fair inquiry Wes, what good is it?
Click to expand...
You have to decide that for yourself.

I'm just saying that if you're looking for fair here, you're looking in the wrong place.
 
Cat_72 said:
Actually....his customary tactic at this point is more often to completely avoid the questions asked....pretend none of it exists.
Click to expand...

Let me ask an open question:

Why should Ed respond to this? Really, what would he gain?

Is it possible for him to prove that the snakes he sent Emily DIDN'T have parasites when he sent them? No. You can't prove a negative. Especially after they've been out of his care for 10 months.

Should he post test results from his vet showing that his collection is parasite free? Why go to the trouble? If he did post the results there is a vocal, and "zealous" (to borrow Seamus's term) faction that would still not believe him.

That faction's responce to Ed's vet reports would be.

1) they're fake
2) The Vet is an incompetent hack who Ed paid off.
3A) The results aren't for ALL of Ed's animals, so they don't prove anything
3B) The results aren't for the animals Ed had at the time of shipping, so they don't mean anything.
4) The results aren't from the time period when Ed shipped Emily the snakes, so he may have cured all his animals of parasites, and THEN had these tests done, so they don't prove anything.
5) or the highly rational response "I don't care what the tests show, I still think Ed sent her infected snakes just because he's Ed"

Ed is in a No Win situation here. If he says nothing, certain people will have a hey-day with that fact and brand Ed a liar. If he says anything, certain people will still choose to call him a liar, and he went to all the trouble to get the vet reports and post them.

Additionally, Ed's vet may not want the reports posted on this forum out of the genuine fear that certain people will begin calling and harassing him just because he's Ed's vet. We have seen that happen before with people in the Bearded Dragon forum.

So, really, what does Ed stand to gain by responding?
 
Wilomn said:
Yet.

Once we have tests from Emily's other snakes then it will be much clearer whether or not it is likely mr. clark traded her parasites along with the snakes.
Click to expand...

Still circumstantial.

And even if the parasites were present... I've gotta ask... So what?

If parasites were present in such small amounts that they weren't suspected or detected until ten months after they were sold, what wrongdoing is there? The animals under Ed's care weren't; losing weight, refusing meals, behaving strangely, producing abnormal feces or showing any signs or symptoms that they had a parasite load. Given that the more substantial a parasite load is, the easier it becomes to detect and the more minescule, the more difficult... and a ten month period before it became evident that a parasite load was present... what did he do wrong in this instance?
 
Let me ask an open question:

Why should Ed respond to this? Really, what would he gain?

Is it possible for him to prove that the snakes he sent Emily DIDN'T have parasites when he sent them? No. You can't prove a negative. Especially after they've been out of his care for 10 months.

Should he post test results from his vet showing that his collection is parasite free? Why go to the trouble? If he did post the results there is a vocal, and "zealous" (to borrow Seamus's term) faction that would still not believe him.

That faction's responce to Ed's vet reports would be.

1) they're fake
2) The Vet is an incompetent hack who Ed paid off.
3A) The results aren't for ALL of Ed's animals, so they don't prove anything
3B) The results aren't for the animals Ed had at the time of shipping, so they don't mean anything.
4) The results aren't from the time period when Ed shipped Emily the snakes, so he may have cured all his animals of parasites, and THEN had these tests done, so they don't prove anything.
5) or the highly rational response "I don't care what the tests show, I still think Ed sent her infected snakes just because he's Ed"

Ed is in a No Win situation here. If he says nothing, certain people will have a hey-day with that fact and brand Ed a liar. If he says anything, certain people will still choose to call him a liar, and he went to all the trouble to get the vet reports and post them.

Additionally, Ed's vet may not want the reports posted on this forum out of the genuine fear that certain people will begin calling and harassing him just because he's Ed's vet. We have seen that happen before with people in the Bearded Dragon forum.

So, really, what does Ed stand to gain by responding?
Click to expand...

If Ed does choose to respond, which is doubtful, he's not responding to the people that have already judged him one way or the other. He's responding to those that haven't.

He advertises here, he should stand behind his product here.
 
Emily, to really "wrap your head around this" you have to think about the nature, life cycle, and transmission of these parasites. You stated that your vet said the animals would have had to have acquired these parasites 6-12 months ago in order for the quantities to reach their current level. From an outsider's perspective, it is quite conceivable that this happened while they were with you, since you have had them most of that time. However, it is also quite conceivable that they acquired the little buggers before they came to you. Maybe it happened resultant to cross contamination from imports, via any number of methods :shrug01: . It doesn't really matter how they got them... or if they had them for a year, or just a day before Ed shipped them, does it (excepting, of course, that since you were sold CBB, you should not have received anything but CBB - so if they were imports, that would be an issue)? The bottom line is at least one of your snakes has these parasites. It happens, and more commonly than people think.
I understand that you are upset & concerned about the appearance of parasites within your collection, but I think that things have been sensationalized a bit more than was necessary. Maybe its because I have been doing this for a long time, and have dealt with plenty of fresh imports, but I don't see it as being worth all this fuss. Yes, you were told that they were as clean as you will find...and maybe, just maybe, they were when he said it...or shortly before.
These were yearlings when you bought them, correct? What were their weights at the time of purchase? Was their any indication, even in retrospect, that they were not growing as expected?
Don't get me wrong - I suspect that, at the very least, the BP in question was likely harboring some, if not all, of those parasites when it was shipped to you. Maybe they all were. Unless Ed had fecals done on them just as he was packing them up for you, there is no way he can realistically claim it isn't possible. Then again...you can't realistically claim that it/they absolutely couldn't have acquired them in your care, either.
Good luck with the snakes - the Albon treatment gets old before it gets finished, lol..especially if you have to treat more than one animal.
 
Seamus Haley said:
Still circumstantial.

And even if the parasites were present... I've gotta ask... So what?
Click to expand...
So what? Ed Clark needs to test all of his animals and stop sales until his colony is cleared. He needs to inform all of his customers going back at least a year (maybe more) that their animals may have been exposed to parasites. That's what a reputable breeder would do.
 
I might be wrong on this but is it possible that when Ed had these animals and tested them the parasites were too small to notice..? Or maybe he didn't check for parasites at all?
Once again, I might be wrong.


Monica Wilkoski
 
Seamus Haley said:
Still circumstantial.

And even if the parasites were present... I've gotta ask... So what?

If parasites were present in such small amounts that they weren't suspected or detected until ten months after they were sold, what wrongdoing is there? The animals under Ed's care weren't; losing weight, refusing meals, behaving strangely, producing abnormal feces or showing any signs or symptoms that they had a parasite load. Given that the more substantial a parasite load is, the easier it becomes to detect and the more minescule, the more difficult... and a ten month period before it became evident that a parasite load was present... what did he do wrong in this instance?
Click to expand...
The "So What" factor.

So What if mr. clark lied to this lady and sent her imports instead of captive born and bred future holdbacks from his own breeders.

So what if she may not be the only one.

So what if he lied to her.

So what if he took advantage of her and got several hundred dollars worth of lizards for 45.00 dollars worth of ball pythons.

So what if he did not care at all about possibly introducing a detrimental pathogen to her other snakes.

So what.

IF mr. clark did not have a history and reputation as crappy as he does, I would certainly have made FAR fewer posts in this thread.

I've said it before and I stand by it now. He's a bad guy.

It's complete and utter nonsense that he can't recall which snakes he sent her. He knows. I think that knowledge is why he's chickened out on coming back here.

If he posts that they WERE imports, then parasites aside, he's opened up another whole can of worms completely about his honesty and business ethics.

I think that's why he won't come here and post.

But, so what, it's just me. No big deal, I've never been right before so no reason I should be now.
 
BallPythonGal21 said:
I might be wrong on this but is it possible that when Ed had these animals and tested them the parasites were too small to notice..? Or maybe he didn't check for parasites at all?
Once again, I might be wrong.


Monica Wilkoski
Click to expand...

We may never know the whole story, if both people co-operate we may rule out some things... with the length of time & nature of the issue I begin to doubt a clear cut answer is available.

The only thing I see to the good is the reminder to test all new animals & to back that up with periodic retests. If us readers get a useful piece of info then it makes the thread of use...

If anyone here is hoping to know the 100% certain answer as to the source of the infestation, I wouldn't hold my breath if I was them. :shrug01:
 
monkeywrench133 said:
So, really, what does Ed stand to gain by responding?
Click to expand...

First let me ask you this Erin, would you respond to this thread if it was about you? I know I would if it were about me. I would not sit here all day going back and forth with the peanut gallery that is for sure, but I would most certainly respond.

But lets be honest here, if either you or me were contacted by Emily for the same circumstances this thread would have never been started. Simply because we would have handled the situation with Emily much different than the way Ed handled it.

Which brings me to my last point. Ed ALWAYS refuses to respond when his actions are out of line or when his business/husbandry practices are in question. This is not an isolated case by a long shot. He dont even offer an apology when he is out of line. We all say stuff sometimes when our emotions have gotten the best of us that we regret an hour later, but we also come back and apologize for it. Not Ed. Not ever. About anything. No matter how trivial or truly wrong he is. He seems to think he owes his peers nothing. Not even a little common courtesy.
 
Seamus Haley said:
what did he do wrong in this instance?
Click to expand...

I dont think Emily is saying Ed did anything wrong. Emily simply informed Ed of her well founded suspicions in the hopes of trying to limit the spread of this as much as possible if it did come from Ed.

It was Ed's refusal to even begin to think any of it came from him, and then his lack of communication that brought this thread here. Not to place blame on Ed, but to inform people who may have bought from Ed since Ed had no desire or intentions of working with her on this in any way. I know if she would have contacted me I would have been thankful and more than happy to help Emily investigate the origins of the parasites, even if that meant the trail led back to me.

Regardless of whether bringing this to the BOI was right or wrong, I believe Emily's intentions here were honorable.
 
I would HIGHLY encourage any and all people who have purchased from Ed to have a simple fecal done and post the results. While the results of Emily's tests will help clarify where the parasites came from (albeit most certainly not conclusive), the results of other buyers will.

If for no other reason then to make sure that your animals are healthy. It would be most prudent.

Griz
 
Emily obviously cares about her animals . If I were Ed "thank god I'm not " I would have apprieated the call and the concern , and follow up . Thats what ANY good breeder would have done. Nobody has to try to hurt Ed's business , he's doing fine all by himself. His silence speaks volumes !

ever hear the saying
A satisfied customer tells two people, a dissatisfied customer tells a hundred !!

I believe Emily as to the possibility of the snakes being loaded with parasites. Is there a possibility of the parasites coming from her own feeder rats ? Of course . We will probably never know . At this point, it really doesnt matter , it's really more about good business practices . She's not looking for anything back, just sharing info with him. And he shuts the door in her face . Not a very good way to handle a customer. the longer he stays silent , the worse it looks.
 
I just don't understand why Ed is choosing to remain silent.
Even though this is speculative, I would think he would jump in and dispell any thoughts that this problem could have come from him. :shrug01:
 
hhmoore said:
These were yearlings when you bought them, correct? What were their weights at the time of purchase? Was their any indication, even in retrospect, that they were not growing as expected?
Click to expand...
Yes, I received them in November of 2006 so they were at least yearlings or very close to it. They were all around 300 grams when I received them (I don't have my records with me at work). The female with the confirmed parasites now weighs 430 grams. I weighed one of the others a few nights ago and she was 530 grams. None of these females grew as I expected but it slipped my mind that they were 05s--I thought they were 06s until I looked back through the e-mails of the transaction before posting here. When I realized that I was especially worried by their current weights, especially considering the fact that they all eat great. I feel terrible for not realizing earlier how slowly they have grown in the time I have had them, especially compared to my other snakes.
hhmoore said:
Good luck with the snakes - the Albon treatment gets old before it gets finished, lol..especially if you have to treat more than one animal.
Click to expand...
Thanks, the Albon is a sticky mess--just a few more days to go on the first female, but possibly a week more for the others if they test positive for coccidia tomorrow. I just hope one dose takes care of it for all of them and I don't have to retreat.
 
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