Heavy parasite load found in ball python from Ed Clark

[FREAKIE_FROG]

Yes, I received them in November of 2006 so they were at least yearlings or very close to it. They were all around 300 grams when I received them (I don't have my records with me at work). The female with the confirmed parasites now weighs 430 grams. I weighed one of the others a few nights ago and she was 530 grams. None of these females grew as I expected but it slipped my mind that they were 05s--I thought they were 06s until I looked back through the e-mails of the transaction before posting here. When I realized that I was especially worried by their current weights, especially considering the fact that they all eat great. I feel terrible for not realizing earlier how slowly they have grown in the time I have had them, especially compared to my other snakes.

Here is the other thing I think people over look that was said some time back. These were sent to her in Nov 06 as 05's even if they were born in Dec 05 300 grams means either a hit and miss eater which she an Ed said they weren't or that they weren't getting all the nutrition that the required to grow. I mean thats only 30 grams a month average. Getting one 300 gram 05 in 06 ok slow starter or hit and miss eater, getting 3 smaller for their age 10 month old at the least 05's in 06 is a big freaking problem.

Anyone that deals with balls will say this same thing. 400-500 grams in a two year old ball that eats every week leans toward a long standing problem. One ball not growing no biggie some are slow 3 from the same breeder and one of the 3 with confirmed parasites is a problem. They should have reached that in their first year in Ed's care.

 

[monkeywrench133]

First let me ask you this Erin, would you respond to this thread if it was about you? I know I would if it were about me. I would not sit here all day going back and forth with the peanut gallery that is for sure, but I would most certainly respond.

But lets be honest here, if either you or me were contacted by Emily for the same circumstances this thread would have never been started. Simply because we would have handled the situation with Emily much different than the way Ed handled it.

You've got a very good point Sammy, if it was you or me, the issue would have never made it this far. I would be doing everything I could to pinpoint the source of the problem, for both Emily's sake and mine.

At this point in the situation though, especially since Emily hasn't had the rest of her animals tested, I don't see what good it would do Ed to respond. I honestly don't see it doing anything other than fueling the peanut gallery.

Yes, Ed should have done a better job of dealing with the situation in the beginning, no arguement. But that window of opprotunity is past, and until more test results are available, what's to say?

Even though this is speculative, I would think he would jump in and dispell any thoughts that this problem could have come from him.

This right here is the problem, how could Ed have proven a negative to everyone's satisfaction? How does he PROVE the parasites WEREN'T there?

I don't see how he could.

 

[kbmxc]

I dont' see how anyone can seriously think that a ball python that is supposedly captive bred/born could have contracted 3 different types of parasites from eating a rat that ate a bug. I'm no statistician but the odds must be pretty high for it to have caught more then a single kind from that method. On the other hand, it is very common for wild caught or animals housed with wild caughts, to contract multiple parasites.

K. Banks

 

[Wilomn]

I honestly don't see it doing anything other than fueling the peanut gallery.

You know, erin, I take affront, I am actually INSULTED by your referring to not only myself but, seemingly, EVERYONE else who posted on this thread by referring to the collective us as "the peanut gallery."

That's pretty rude and very uncalled for.

Were not YOU one of those who was all for stricter control and better manners?

Way to go setting the example there.

Oh and by the way, just because YOU don't see the good in something in no way means that there IS no good or that others do not themselves see that good.

Little arrogant today, are we?

 

[SPJ]

how could Ed have proven a negative to everyone's satisfaction? How does he PROVE the parasites WEREN'T there?

I don't see how he could.

He could have at least posted the results of the tests he says he does all the time on his animals. At least that would have been a start and then he could wait on the results of Emily's other snakes.

If it was me, I sure as hell would not just disappear. I would at least post the results I had that would show I had healthy animals at the time of the trade.

 

[shrap]

This right here is the problem, how could Ed have proven a negative to everyone's satisfaction? How does he PROVE the parasites WEREN'T there?

I don't see how he could.

Glad you brought that up, I responded to that earlier and decided not to post.

He didnt have to come on here and defend himself or prove anything. All he had to do was get on here and say, "I have decided to get my animals tested and work with Emily to find the origin of these parasites".

Thats it. That is all Ed had to say. Well, he had to actually wholeheartedly follow through with it too.

 

[shrap]

I am actually INSULTED by your referring to not only myself but, seemingly, EVERYONE else who posted on this thread by referring to the collective us as "the peanut gallery."

Hey, we are the peanut gallery. We worked hard to achieve peanut gallery status. Wear it with PRIDE!!

 

[Seamus Haley]

So what? Ed Clark needs to test all of his animals and stop sales until his colony is cleared. He needs to inform all of his customers going back at least a year (maybe more) that their animals may have been exposed to parasites. That's what a reputable breeder would do.

I really hate being put in a position where I'm forced, by what I believe to be logical and true, to defend Ed.

All animals sold by anyone to anyone may have been exposed to parasites. There are a small subsection of dealers who will blatantly sell untreated wild caught animals that have a high likelyhood of carrying and sharing various parasites and diseases. I'm pretty sure anyone who's been around long enough can name at least four or five- some of us are aware of more- who fall into that category. Most people who keep animals have some practices that are a potential transmission risk. Be it handling someone else's animals and then handling their own, or not keeping their private feeder colony in lab sterile conditions or not maintaining quaranteen that lasts eighteen months. I do not personally feel that it's worth villifying and condemning an individual when their practices and standards are not exceptionally noteworthy for their negative characteristics.

Ten months it took for these parasites to be noticeable. If... and it's a monumental IF the animal was sent with a parasite load, it certainly wasn't one that anyone had any reason to suspect was present at the time. Given the number of possible methods of transmission and duration of time, it's flat out absurd to even hazard a guess as to the source of the problem. It's a possibility that the parasites came from Ed and it's a possibility that they came from a beetle that wandered into the "closed" (Ha!) rodent colony, the only reason people are willing to blame Ed given the times involved is because they don't like him and are willing to overlook what is probable and likely in favor of what is possible but unlikely.

What I say "So what?" I mean specifically the act of selling an animal that has a hidden parasite load. Hidden being the key word there. Parasite loads are an inherent part of being a multicellular organism, some parasites are nastier, some have minimal deterimental effects, some can remain a non-issue for years, some kill your animals short term, some won't be an issue if the animal's immune system is healthy, some can overpower an animal regardless of the conditions it's being kept in. The animal appeared healthy when it was sold, when it arrived and for a LONG duration of time after the fact. There was nothing evil involved in it's sale.

Wes said-

So What if mr. clark lied to this lady and sent her imports instead of captive born and bred future holdbacks from his own breeders.

So what if she may not be the only one.

So what if he lied to her.

So what if he took advantage of her and got several hundred dollars worth of lizards for 45.00 dollars worth of ball pythons.

So what if he did not care at all about possibly introducing a detrimental pathogen to her other snakes.

So what.

You're basing the assumption that the animals were not represented properly on the assumption that Ed sold them with a parasite load. That's a big... big... assumption based on very scanty evidence to support it. It's not any more likely that Ed sold the animals with parasites than it is that they ended up in the animal after the point of sale. If they did come with the animals when shipped, it's no more likely that he misrepresented the animals than it would be that they were added to the animal when he fed them a random rodent.

You want him to have done something wrong because you don't like the guy. You're willing to jump to poorly evidenced conclusions and label Ed's actions as wrong on that basis. I'm not. Nothing that has been shown here has convinced me that Ed is at fault in this situation, nothing has proven that he lied nothing has proven that he misrepresented the animals. Not yet anyway and I don't see any possible way for this situation to play out and provide what would be required to prove anything. Ed's got a reputation and a history of being called on misdeeds, if he were a parasite factory, there'd be other people who would be vocalizing that.

I do fecals here, at home. Kinda casually, never when I see conditions that would warrant taking a sample to a vet but out of interest. I have clean, healthy fat happy animals. I've never yet done a fecal smear or float at home when I didn't find some evidence of *something* in at least one of the animals and we're talking a private collection where I breed the majority of my own feeders with under three hundred animals.

 

[monkeywrench133]

Glad you brought that up, I responded to that earlier and decided not to post.

He didnt have to come on here and defend himself or prove anything. All he had to do was get on here and say, "I have decided to get my animals tested and work with Emily to find the origin of these parasites".

Thats it. That is all Ed had to say. Well, he had to actually wholeheartedly follow through with it too.

If he'd have asked my advice, that's what I would have told him to do (he didn't for the record). But after he said that, and after he wholeheartedly followed through, then what? People would want to know where those parasites came from, how does he prove that his collection wasn't the source? Even with test results showing clean animals now? Its impossible for him to prove that the BPs he sent Emily were not infected when he shipped them. That's why I say he's in a no-win situation, no matter what he says, he can't prove he's not at fault.

 

[monkeywrench133]

You know, erin, I take affront, I am actually INSULTED by your referring to not only myself but, seemingly, EVERYONE else who posted on this thread by referring to the collective us as "the peanut gallery."

That's pretty rude and very uncalled for.

Were not YOU one of those who was all for stricter control and better manners?

Way to go setting the example there.

Oh and by the way, just because YOU don't see the good in something in no way means that there IS no good or that others do not themselves see that good.

Little arrogant today, are we?

........................................................................

Originally Posted by Wilomn
I'm just saying that if you're looking for fair here, you're looking in the wrong place.

Can't have it both ways Wes.

 

[Jbreddawg]

I really hate being put in a position where I'm forced, by what I believe to be logical and true, to defend Ed.

All animals sold by anyone to anyone may have been exposed to parasites. There are a small subsection of dealers who will blatantly sell untreated wild caught animals that have a high likelyhood of carrying and sharing various parasites and diseases. I'm pretty sure anyone who's been around long enough can name at least four or five- some of us are aware of more- who fall into that category. Most people who keep animals have some practices that are a potential transmission risk. Be it handling someone else's animals and then handling their own, or not keeping their private feeder colony in lab sterile conditions or not maintaining quaranteen that lasts eighteen months. I do not personally feel that it's worth villifying and condemning an individual when their practices and standards are not exceptionally noteworthy for their negative characteristics.

Ten months it took for these parasites to be noticeable. If... and it's a monumental IF the animal was sent with a parasite load, it certainly wasn't one that anyone had any reason to suspect was present at the time. Given the number of possible methods of transmission and duration of time, it's flat out absurd to even hazard a guess as to the source of the problem. It's a possibility that the parasites came from Ed and it's a possibility that they came from a beetle that wandered into the "closed" (Ha!) rodent colony, the only reason people are willing to blame Ed given the times involved is because they don't like him and are willing to overlook what is probable and likely in favor of what is possible but unlikely.

What I say "So what?" I mean specifically the act of selling an animal that has a hidden parasite load. Hidden being the key word there. Parasite loads are an inherent part of being a multicellular organism, some parasites are nastier, some have minimal deterimental effects, some can remain a non-issue for years, some kill your animals short term, some won't be an issue if the animal's immune system is healthy, some can overpower an animal regardless of the conditions it's being kept in. The animal appeared healthy when it was sold, when it arrived and for a LONG duration of time after the fact. There was nothing evil involved in it's sale.

Wes said-


You're basing the assumption that the animals were not represented properly on the assumption that Ed sold them with a parasite load. That's a big... big... assumption based on very scanty evidence to support it. It's not any more likely that Ed sold the animals with parasites than it is that they ended up in the animal after the point of sale. If they did come with the animals when shipped, it's no more likely that he misrepresented the animals than it would be that they were added to the animal when he fed them a random rodent.

You want him to have done something wrong because you don't like the guy. You're willing to jump to poorly evidenced conclusions and label Ed's actions as wrong on that basis. I'm not. Nothing that has been shown here has convinced me that Ed is at fault in this situation, nothing has proven that he lied nothing has proven that he misrepresented the animals. Not yet anyway and I don't see any possible way for this situation to play out and provide what would be required to prove anything. Ed's got a reputation and a history of being called on misdeeds, if he were a parasite factory, there'd be other people who would be vocalizing that.

I do fecals here, at home. Kinda casually, never when I see conditions that would warrant taking a sample to a vet but out of interest. I have clean, healthy fat happy animals. I've never yet done a fecal smear or float at home when I didn't find some evidence of *something* in at least one of the animals and we're talking a private collection where I breed the majority of my own feeders with under three hundred animals.

I don't think everyone is trying to dog on Ed for selling infected snakes or snakes not represented correctly "well some are"

I think it has become more of what a reputable breeder should do AFTER the sale. EVEN if it is 10 months down the road . Most of the animals my girlfriend and I have purchased , we have been told if we EVER have a problem please feel free to call !! That does not mean 5 years down the road I get a new snake, but it does mean I get a lifetime of help,advice, AND a great seller that I would buy from AGAIN !!

 

[Seamus Haley]

I don't think everyone is trying to dog on Ed for selling infected snakes or snakes not represented correctly "well some are"

I think it has become more of what a reputable breeder should do AFTER the sale. EVEN if it is 10 months down the road . Most of the animals my girlfriend and I have purchased , we have been told if we EVER have a problem please feel free to call !! That does not mean 5 years down the road I get a new snake, but it does mean I get a lifetime of help,advice, AND a great seller that I would buy from AGAIN !!

There then too- what did Ed not do that he should have?

Do people think he should refund the purchase price of the animals? Do they think he should pay for the vet visit and medical treatment? Do they think he should... give redundant information about parasite transmission that he may or may not even have the technical background to explain?

What help or advice could he have possibly given her that she wasn't already aware of through the process of diagnosing it? There are other BOI thread that deal with similar topics. Animals becoming sick or dying months and even years after a sale is made and the usual consensus in all of those has been that the buyer long since assumed the full responsibility for the well being and condition of the animal. Generally the whack-job buyer is looking for a refund or some kind of compensation and are told, with varying language, that they are out of their gourd. The only difference between those situations and this one is the Ed factor.

I asked this before and haven't seen it answered... Emily, when you decided to come here and create this thread, did anyone else influence that decision? Did someone else encourage you to post here or suggest that it was an appropriate place to air your grievance? If so, who?

 

[Jbreddawg]

I'm sure had he spoke to her , listened , maybe said , wow thanks for the info, let me go and check out my stock !! But he didn't, he blew her off and said not my snakes . Maybe a different response and this thread would have never been written.

We purchased a few snakes from a breeder around a year ago , after 5 months one of them still had not fed. We contacted the breeder to ask for some helpful tips. Instead of tips, he said he would give us a refund, another snake , or take her back, get her eating again and give her back when she was. We didnt ask for any of those things , just advice but those were his suggestions. we did end up trading her back for another snake . He was under no obligation to offer us ANY resolution but he did !! He also offered to swap back once he got her eating again if we wanted that option. Now thats a breeder with integrity !! And someone we will continue to do buseniss with.

 

[Jbreddawg]

Just to let it be known, I do not know either Ed nor Emily and am just responding with my opinion on the matter . What i do know is i have delt with many different reptiles for many many years . Sometimes you run across the nicest people in the world and sometimes you run across people who are " not so nice" theres probably nothing he could have done that she didn't aready know EXCEPT maybe treat her like she was a customer he would like to deal with again in the future . Like I said before , it's not always the issue but how the issue is handled . We will probably never know when and where the parasites came from . But in my opinion " and before this thread i have never even heard of Ed " He didn't handle the after sale to well . Just look, 51 pages already !!

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

I'm sure had he spoke to her , listened , maybe said , wow thanks for the info, let me go and check out my stock !! But he didn't, he blew her off and said not my snakes . Maybe a different response and this thread would have never been written.

We purchased a few snakes from a breeder around a year ago , after 5 months one of them still had not fed. We contacted the breeder to ask for some helpful tips. Instead of tips, he said he would give us a refund, another snake , or take her back, get her eating again and give her back when she was. We didnt ask for any of those things , just advice but those were his suggestions. we did end up trading her back for another snake . He was under no obligation to offer us ANY resolution but he did !! He also offered to swap back once he got her eating again if we wanted that option. Now thats a breeder with integrity !! And someone we will continue to do buseniss with.

Youre lucky to have a breeder that is willing to do that for you, but at the same time, not all breeders will go so far. So, as good a point you are trying to make, and as good of a breeder you have found, in reality more than likely it just wont... actually happen that way in most cases.

I am not pinpointing this on anyone, but, ed. i would like to see a post from you. Anything saying that you are interested in finding out what is going on. be it maybe they did come from you, or maybe they didnt.... i am honestly pretty open minded about this still. since there is not SOLID fact that they definitely came from you.... are you willing to , in some way, figure this out? if not for anyone else in this thread, but for you and the OP? I think some of us here who dont have any personal issues with you would really honestly appreciate it.
You dont have to... but im asking... because maybe.

 

[KelliH]

Ten months it took for these parasites to be noticeable. If... and it's a monumental IF the animal was sent with a parasite load, it certainly wasn't one that anyone had any reason to suspect was present at the time. Given the number of possible methods of transmission and duration of time, it's flat out absurd to even hazard a guess as to the source of the problem. It's a possibility that the parasites came from Ed and it's a possibility that they came from a beetle that wandered into the "closed" (Ha!) rodent colony, the only reason people are willing to blame Ed given the times involved is because they don't like him and are willing to overlook what is probable and likely in favor of what is possible but unlikely.

You are right, Seamus but it seems for reasons beyond my comprehension that we are in the minority with that opinion. I don't get it.

f someone purchased geckos from me, said they were happy with them upon receiving them, never said anything to the contrary for almost a whole year, then contacted me and tells me the animals have 3 different parasites, what would I do? I would counsel them on steps they can take to erradicate them, and I would do some fecals on random animals in my collection, to ease my own *slight* worries but that is it. Ten months is a long time, and I don't guarantee the health of my animals for that long, I don't know anyone in this business that does! I would be very upset and beyond pissed off if a customer came on the BOI after the above hypothetical scenerio took place and posted a "warning" about my animals having parasites. Ten months later no less! I have a strong feeling that most everyone posting here would be upset about that as well.

 

[Serafim]

Kelli I don't believe you are in the minority here. I too feel that 10 months is a long time to wait. But this whole thread could have been avoided if Ed Clark would have addressed the issue a bit diffrently. To date he has yet to address this at all.

 

[Cat_72]

It keeps getting brought up that perhaps the BOI was not the proper place for this to be posted.....but how many times have posts been made elsewhere, and the poster has been told that "If you are going to name names, it belongs on the BOI"? Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't sort of situation, apparently.

Emily asked for NOTHING from Ed, besides a little simple information about the origin of the snakes she bought from him, and perhaps a little advice, and he blew her off. If he had worked with her, given her some advice, even just "counseling them on steps to take to eradicate them" that Kelli mentioned...but no, he blew her off. Kelli also mentions that she would "do some random fecals in her collection", to ease her own concerns...albeit slight concerns...Ed just says he has done random fecals in the past and everything is clean, so he doesn't have any worries. Yep, he blew it off.

So, she made this post, simply to warn others who have purchased from him that it may be a good idea to test their animals from Ed. Again, not asking for any kind of refund or guarantee to be applied at this point....just to give others a "heads up", since Ed offered no answers to her. And some seem to think she's the "bad guy" here for making the post? Uh, ok.

 

[jsrocket]

So, she made this post, simply to warn others who have purchased from him that it may be a good idea to test their animals from Ed. Again, not asking for any kind of refund or guarantee to be applied at this point....just to give others a "heads up", since Ed offered no answers to her. And some seem to think she's the "bad guy" here for making the post? Uh, ok.

Cathy, I don't believe that logic applies. I am not a breeder, just a hobbyist with some reptiles. But I have been a businessman for a long time.

To drag someone's name into a public forum, it is only reasonable and smart to make pretty sure you know what you're talking about beforehand.

It doesn't seem that's the case here.

No matter how you slice it, this whole campaign smells a little fishy.

I'm not defending Ed's lack of response, because I also know that in some cases, it is better to take a loss, go the extra mile, than have bad publicity.

I'm not liking either party at this point.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

You know, erin, I take affront, I am actually INSULTED by your referring to not only myself but, seemingly, EVERYONE else who posted on this thread by referring to the collective us as "the peanut gallery."

That's pretty rude and very uncalled for.

Were not YOU one of those who was all for stricter control and better manners?

Way to go setting the example there.

Oh and by the way, just because YOU don't see the good in something in no way means that there IS no good or that others do not themselves see that good.

Little arrogant today, are we?

Wes, I am amazed that your keyboard did not spontaneously burst into flame as you typed those words.


The words "Pot" "Kettle" and "Black" just took on a whole new level of meaning.