Heavy parasite load found in ball python from Ed Clark

[DThomas]

ENOUGH ALREADY!!! Jim if you are drinking with your pals, please continue to do so with out posting on this thread while under the influence or at least do not try and lie about posting in the wrong thread....step away from the key board and go have some "what you call fun" with your friends.

John, please don't encourage any more bad behavior by by baiting Jim. He is impaired at the moment and I for one would like to see this thread actually stay on topic.

I am in a mood boyz, I have given you fair warning. Continue in this matter of banter and warning points may be issued.

I suggest eveyone heed Laura's warning. I however, will not be handing out warning points, it will be 3 day bans if the juvenile baiting back and forth does not stop.

 

[lanceheads]

Very well said Dennis.

Randal Berry

 

[Serafim]

You are right about the baiting but I will state this. It has been ok For one person to do this for an entire thread without anyone stepping in. Go back and look over the thread and see if Jim hasn't called out many people when he was not "impaired". I will keep it on topic and apologize to all who I have offended....

 

[Wraith]

Does the fact that the snake has parasites prove it's CH? That's what you're linking my statement to, Cat. I was my understanding that Jay's info indicated that these parasites could be transmitted to snakes via contaminated prey items. Which lead me to believe that even CB animals are not safe from infestation & that you can't determine CB vs CH vs WC just from the infestation alone. If that is true, my remarks were about this being a case of a discovered infestation, giving the benefit of the doubt that the animals were correctly represented.

I have had clean snakes show positive fecals for tapeworms and pinworms from having been fed live mice. It's possible to ask the vet to try to look closer at the parasites under the microscope to confirm or deny if they are of a type found in rodents rather than in reptiles. I would also suggest if they are raising their own food and even with supposedly shot gun/pre treating the rodents, that they still run random fecals on their rodents too and see what pops up. I did that with my mouse source.. sure enough the type of parasite eggs found in the snake matched identically to the type from the mice.

It's quite possible the snakes were indeed clean when they were sold and then later infected from eating healthy looking but still contaminated rodents. It's going to be next to impossible to prove that the snakes were infected at the time of purchase since the owner of the snakes chose to wait over 10 months to decide to check the snakes. I do have to wonder if they had quarantine procedures and such in place --- WHY wait 10 months before doing any fecals? I would think someone concerned about the health of their collection would be doing fecals as soon as they got a sample from each animal and then test on a monthly basis throughout the quarantine process. I could see lashing out at Ed if the snakes had been tested within 3 months of purchase and found positive, but to wait 10 months... no. that's too much to be expected. Irregardless of the ethics of the seller, the fault lies on the owner of the snakes for waiting too long to check their snakes out - not the seller.

 

[hhmoore]

The origin of the animals (CB or CH) is an issue ONLY because it would indicate whether Ed correctly represented the snakes in question...assuming that Emily correctly recalled his wording. The issue of the parasites is a separate matter, since that particular grouping is not likely to be found in CH babies.
I don't find it hard to believe that Ed didn't remember the specific animals he sold Emily...he seems to sell a lot of them. He acquires CH babies, purchases CBB from other breeders, trades with a number of people, and breeds. He may/may not take in imports. Perhaps his record keeping is not that intensive, so he doesn't have origin/destination records for each snake that passes through his hands (if that was the case, he should have been up front about not remembering her particular animals, but not said anything about finding out). The parasite load cannot be considered conclusive evidence that they were not CBB.

While I think Ed should have followed through with Emily, I can certainly see why he isn't posting here...no matter what he posts now, he will be attacked and his "evidence" not accepted. The window of opportunity was small, and it closed a long time ago.

 

[GKO Reptiles]

Wow Bud Wow

Im actually just posting in regards to Mr. Mierke's little post about being the same people downing Mr. Stephenson. I am so sick of hearing you come in and out of these threads always bringing this up and backing Bruce. We have never downed anyone. We dont know Mr. Clark but I can tell you that this thread was started to tell other people to check their snakes from Ed Clark. She DID NOT want anything in return and if Ed Clark thought this thread was bashing him or soiling his name then maybe he should have come on here and posted about it. I mean I see him reading this everyday WHY NO POST. He might not be in the wrong he might be in the wrong but he will not post to back anything up so others can form their conclusions. And Bud how about you drop the deal we had with Bruce years ago. And you are right he didn't get anything from us but he tried. If we gave in becasue we were persay scared then would he be in the wrong????? It's like robbing a store you walk in with a gun and oh my there is no money are you still in the wrong from trying??????? GOD WHY IS THIS THREAD GOING THE WAY IT IS????? I'll tell you why because the cliques in the reptile business are always at war no matter what. Most have good points its just the way everyone goes about it. PLAIN and SIMPLE Ed needs to respond.

 

[David Scarboro]

He called me out...

You are right about the baiting but I will state this. It has been ok For one person to do this for an entire thread without anyone stepping in. Go back and look over the thread and see if Jim hasn't called out many people when he was not "impaired". I will keep it on topic and apologize to all who I have offended....

He called me out in post #149 of this thread. I chose only to clarify my previous post and let it go. Beating up an impaired individual is not much fun. Back to the matter at hand. Emily, there is no need to get stressed about this. You have presented your case well. I don't feel that you have been emotional, or out of line. It has been an interesting discussion. You could claim victory by default since Ed chose not to show, but I feel that you don't need to. It may be a hung jury, but the majority has spoken, and you have definitely carried the day.

 

[brucestephenson]

Thank God for the few that have chosen to defend Ed. Only two are Jedi. The others have chosen to defend all on their lonesome. It show that that the majority is often not right. That is why the U.S. has a bill of rights and the amendments to the constitution. To protect us from the dictatorship of the majority.

 

[mercedesherp]

With all respect to all parties, this is a site I have used for years to gain information and post complaints. I find it difficult now to navigate the many pages of useless information caused by "chat room" mentality postings.
Rich, please find a way to filter some of this as the static detracts from information gathering in an acceptable manner. I have always used fauna to help me in some way and have tried to be a respectfull member. Things are getting way out of hand here so far as actual information concerning any posted inquiry is concerned. RICH, don't let this site go down any further. You had the right idea, you have been slipping. Is this a chat room or an information posting station? Relevant info is to be posted, not inter posting bickering, etc. It becomes daunting to read so many pages and gain nothing but some else's opinion that has nothing to do with the original post
Trust me on this Rich, if you do not, some one else will. This is an information gathering site, correct?
I have trusted all fauna members for years and only posted when I needed help, advice or information. I was never disappointed with the member replies and stand by the membership. Something however, must be done to minimize personal opinion when it regards responses. The rhetoric is destroying the value of this site.
Since, I have opened my mouth on this thread, I will continue.
Anyone that properly quarantines their new animals, would not have to post anything. It does not matter, the who, what,where, it matters,the what I did when I took possesion. Obviously the quarantine procedures of the complaing person are poor and represent the mentality of a pet snake owner more so than a developing herpetoculturist. Ever buy a used car?
As far as Ed goes, I don't know him well enough to judge. I am not standing up for him, I am trying to convey the responsibility of animal ownership. A responsible owner would have carried out at least a couple fecal tests on any new animals in their standard quarantine procedures.
I really think someone should pen " Standard quarantine procedures and protocol 101"
Reptiles mag would be glad to hear from you.
Lady's and Gents, don't rag on me, just give it some thought.
RICH, WAKE UP !
Hank Gibson

 

[David Scarboro]

OK Bruce...

Thank God for the few that have chosen to defend Ed. Only two are Jedi. The others have chosen to defend all on their lonesome. It show that that the majority is often not right. That is why the U.S. has a bill of rights and the amendments to the constitution. To protect us from the dictatorship of the majority.

Why does Ed not show up? There are some important questions that he needs to answer. Please dont tell me that it is because he will be ganged up on. His name and reputation are on the line here, at least to some extent. If he is in the right, it should be easy to show up for the fight. It would be for me. Jedi's are supposed to be warriors, able to fight and win against incredible odds. How can you support someone who will run when the chips are down???

 

[BallPythonGal21]

Bruce, I think it's a good idea you stop posting for a while and maybe hang out with your Jedi "friends"... You're not helping Ed at all, you're making it worse IMO.



Monica Wilkoski

 

[frankykeno]

Okay just so the rest of us little nobodies can learn....hands up folks...who does multiple fecals on EVERY single snake that enters their collection?

There almost seems this underlying message from some of you, that those of us that have small collections, breed on a small scale are barely worth considering...gawd help the poor "pet snake owner"....they'd get no respect it seems (hello Rodney Dangerfield). Look most of us started out as simple pet snake owners, a lot of you likely sell off some of your snakes as beloved pets. How about we stop with the elitist crap. Some pet snakes are extremely well kept, some small collections are extremely well tended and some big breeders/importers/jobbers ought to be ashamed of the level of supposed care they give their snakes. It's not about numbers and who you are, it's about in the end the care you give, the knowledge you strive to gather so you can continue to grow and be better. It's about the snakes not the ego's!

So what if a customer comes back a year later with a query, a concern, a fear? Are some of you too "big" to answer? Is Ed so very busy and so very important that he couldn't have dealt with Emily on a herper to herper basis and likely this BOI thread would have never occurred? I'm a nobody in this business and likely never will be more than I am but I'm watching and I'm learning folks. So far the lesson of this thread for me personally is I'd rather never produce and sell a snake, than treat a customer in the manner I've watched Emily being treated by Ed. It won't matter how many pretty snakes I produce, if I can't be a honest, upfront person....nothing much else counts, at least in my "noobie" little brain.

 

[hhmoore]

Okay just so the rest of us little nobodies can learn....hands up folks...who does multiple fecals on EVERY single snake that enters their collection?

There almost seems this underlying message from some of you, that those of us that have small collections, breed on a small scale are barely worth considering...gawd help the poor "pet snake owner"....they'd get no respect it seems (hello Rodney Dangerfield). Look most of us started out as simple pet snake owners, a lot of you likely sell off some of your snakes as beloved pets. How about we stop with the elitist crap. Some pet snakes are extremely well kept, some small collections are extremely well tended and some big breeders/importers/jobbers ought to be ashamed of the level of supposed care they give their snakes. It's not about numbers and who you are, it's about in the end the care you give, the knowledge you strive to gather so you can continue to grow and be better. It's about the snakes not the ego's!

So what if a customer comes back a year later with a query, a concern, a fear? Are some of you too "big" to answer? Is Ed so very busy and so very important that he couldn't have dealt with Emily on a herper to herper basis and likely this BOI thread would have never occurred? I'm a nobody in this business and likely never will be more than I am but I'm watching and I'm learning folks. So far the lesson of this thread for me personally is I'd rather never produce and sell a snake, than treat a customer in the manner I've watched Emily being treated by Ed. It won't matter how many pretty snakes I produce, if I can't be a honest, upfront person....nothing much else counts, at least in my "noobie" little brain.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

The origin of the animals (CB or CH) is an issue ONLY because it would indicate whether Ed correctly represented the snakes in question...assuming that Emily correctly recalled his wording. The issue of the parasites is a separate matter, since that particular grouping is not likely to be found in CH babies.
I don't find it hard to believe that Ed didn't remember the specific animals he sold Emily...he seems to sell a lot of them. He acquires CH babies, purchases CBB from other breeders, trades with a number of people, and breeds. He may/may not take in imports. Perhaps his record keeping is not that intensive, so he doesn't have origin/destination records for each snake that passes through his hands (if that was the case, he should have been up front about not remembering her particular animals, but not said anything about finding out). The parasite load cannot be considered conclusive evidence that they were not CBB.

While I think Ed should have followed through with Emily, I can certainly see why he isn't posting here...no matter what he posts now, he will be attacked and his "evidence" not accepted. The window of opportunity was small, and it closed a long time ago.

The only point that I believe we know from Ed's emails is that he was suppose to send animals he produced. Other than Ed not posting and according to the Vet report the snakes have parasites, I couldn't state anything else as conclusive either. Just have my gut to go on if she received the animals she was suppose to. I'm uncomfortably stating that opinion with the amount of time that has passed since the purchase and with no conclusive evidence either way.

Readers I'm sure will draw opinions based on what is here. I'm sure it will swing both ways to no end.

From: Ed Clark Ball Pythons
To: Emily Cook
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: trade

Emily.put togeather a group of 1.5 older ones for 700.00 send to; ed clark
[address removed]
i will photo some nice females(2005's) and start sending you pics. for you to choose from. a fair trade would be me sending you 6 captive bred females.
I will pay shipping on my end. fedex
you pay to ship the geckos to me.
im really expecting some nice geckos for the 6 ball pythons.
if this trade goes well, I have plenty of mojaves and spiders.
if you want to check me out. fauna classifieds, boi. user name ED CLAR

From: Ed Clark Ball Pythons
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:01 PM
Subject: trade

Emily,hi. sure I would be interested in trading some bps for cresteds, not looking for tiny babies. have a couple of 06 male pastels, some 05 hold back females that i produced last year. I do alot of pastels,mojaves,spiders and end up with alot of normals.which is ok with me. looking for 1.5 right now.all different colors if possible.may do a larger trade after yhis one.the females that i have are in the 250-350 gram range.I still have more than I want to keep and can send you some pics.heres a couple that I grabbed out of the baby rack.what kind of value do you put on the 1.5 group?

 

[Dennis Hultman]

*Correction

I'm uncomfortably

I'm uncomfortable about stating

 

[Wilomn]

Emily, don't worry about what is said here about you. You did the right thing.

There are a LOT of teeny tiny voices, much akin to mosquitos, that simply need to be swatted or ignored.

pocketrocket is one, brucie "the crybaby" stephensen is another, bud "the smuggler supporter" mierky is yet another.

Whether the big names can back you 100% of have some doubts about how you wound up here, your being here is held by most as just.

I think you got screwed. And without even a thankyou ma'am.

mr. clark is a coward and a liar. So are his cheerleaders bud and brucie. Put them on ignore and you'll have a better time with this site. Heck, put pocket rocket rich on too, he RARELY has anything intelligent much less relevant to ad to any discussion.

You did right Emily.

 

[Mike P.]

What I find hard to believe is that Ed's still posting ads on here - Innocent until proven guilty ? Yes, however you need to defend yourself without your dream team forum buddies defending you Ed - They aint helping you at all - And with all the accusations "some Proven already", such as mite infested animals, and now parasites along with origins of the animals you are selling in regards to whether you produced these or are passing off other animals as such...

Pardon my morals, but until the truth comes out, I believe Mr. C should be restrained from conducting and/or engaging in said business on this forum until things are cleared up - As it seems now, there is more potential for this to get worse before it gets any better...

I believe a temporary ban on his classifieds account is in order, less classified ads that do not involve the sales of animals...

 

[kbmxc]

Emily, Don't let the likes of that star wars weirdo or that Roy Orbison clone get you down. I appreciate that you stepped into the fire in order to warn others about possible infections/infestations from someone that buys and sells a large number of animals that he misrepresents as being bred/hatched by him. I'm sure many others appreciate it as well.

 

[kbmxc]

Oops....K. Banks.

 

[romad119]

What I find hard to believe is that Ed's still posting ads on here - Innocent until proven guilty ? Yes, however you need to defend yourself without your dream team forum buddies defending you Ed - They aint helping you at all - And with all the accusations "some Proven already", such as mite infested animals, and now parasites along with origins of the animals you are selling in regards to whether you produced these or are passing off other animals as such...

Pardon my morals, but until the truth comes out, I believe Mr. C should be restrained from conducting and/or engaging in said business on this forum until things are cleared up - As it seems now, there is more potential for this to get worse before it gets any better...

I believe a temporary ban on his classifieds account is in order, less classified ads that do not involve the sales of animals...

You'd have to ban others as well, etc. Now explain to those who paid for that ability why they can't anymore. Big can of worms.