Heavy parasite load found in ball python from Ed Clark

[Griz]

Ed's unwillingness to provide even one shred of proof or documentation, or to even respond privately or publically with a simple yes or no to any of the questions presented speaks volumes to me, even moreso than any proof that he or I could ever provide, and I can only hope that others might see things in the same light and take heed.

Emily, even the one's who have problems seeing past the surface of the original complaint agree with you over the fact that Ed's behavior is not the behavior of a good breeder/seller. That fact simply cannot be argued.

Everyone is going to have their own opinions of protocol and what should have happened vs what did happen. However, opinions aside, it's painfully obvious to all that Ed is simply not someone that we should support or do business with given his behavior, which was not limited to this one transaction.

Griz

 

[ravensgait]

Oh just so you know and as far as I know that post that was moved from the Mod forum was the only recent post he made on the subject and the entire post was put in this thread. He shut up and went away right after posting that as a number of us(I think every Mod who saw it) let him know our thoughts on his back stabbing and his male ness was called into question amongst other things.

I don't think anyone here doubts where you got these animals from... Randy

 

[JudyC]

I hate to say it but I think you would have gotten father with Ed if you had kept this between the two of you and only brought it public after exhausting that effort.

I personally have tried to deal with Ed about issues in private. It does NOT work. He is just as evasive and slick in private as he is in public. Maybe even more so because he doesn't have public peer pressure goading him on. (Not that even that seems to be having much affect in this case.) AND...in addition to being his usual evasive, slimy self in private....He will then attempt to take the matter public by twisting what was said in private to make himself into some sort of victim...and then claim PRIVACY issues to keep from proving his point.

I think notifying him of the issue and giving him a chance to respond was plenty generous, in this case.

 

[cookreptiles]

I would imagine that the thought that they might be WC or just CB animals popped into your head when you found out they had Parasites. That thought would cross most peoples minds in the situation.

Honestly when I very first received the snakes I thought to myself that they looked like CH "fancies". You know that look--chosen for blushing, clear bellies, nice patterns, etc. At the time I dismissed it because Ed was held in high regard and besides, who is going to listen if you say the supposed CBB snakes you just got look like fancies? That would be a ridiculous claim to make against someone.

Upon discovering the parasites my vet asked me if the snakes were imports or sold to me by someone who housed large amounts of snakes together for wholesale purposes. It's a very valid question.

I hate to say it but I think you would have gotten father with Ed if you had kept this between the two of you and only brought it public after exhausting that effort. Where most people would respond to a BOI thread about them, Ed has in the past clamed up when people post anything at all negitive about him here. Hope the snakes do well for you..Randy

I don't think I would have gotten anywhere at all privately. I haven't followed Ed's past on the BOI and I don't know how he tends to respond to threads about him here, but I do know that he tends not to respond to private attempts at communication. However, my getting somewhere with him is not really the goal--the goal is to warn others about possible parasites in snakes that came from Ed and of my bad experience with him. That's not something that can be achieved via private communication.

 

[ravensgait]

Judy then you bring it to the BOI and then you post the emails he sent. He can claim privacy all he wants, still wont help him.. In this case the OP got one post from Ed and that was that. We've shown him and others that do wrong, that if you screwed someone just don't respond on the BOI. Sure you'll look bad but this part of an old saying comes to mind "opening your mouth and confirming it".. Your never more guilty than when your caught red handed or confess to your crime. Ed didn't fess up and yeah many of us wonder at his guilt but I guarantee you that some will see this and still do business with him. though hopefully some will also go the other way.

Some folks can be baited into spilling their guts here, others well they take a different approach.. Randy

 

[Wilomn]

Judy then you bring it to the BOI and then you post the emails he sent. He can claim privacy all he wants, still wont help him.. In this case the OP got one post from Ed and that was that. We've shown him and others that do wrong, that if you screwed someone just don't respond on the BOI. Sure you'll look bad but this part of an old saying comes to mind "opening your mouth and confirming it".. Your never more guilty than when your caught red handed or confess to your crime. Ed didn't fess up and yeah many of us wonder at his guilt but I guarantee you that some will see this and still do business with him. though hopefully some will also go the other way.

Some folks can be baited into spilling their guts here, others well they take a different approach.. Randy

mr. clark knew he was guilty. He knew he would be shredded.

Instead of doing the right thing and admitting he made a mistake, he decided to run, run, run away and hope it would all blow over.

He took the cowardly way out. Now, he has to look at the same coward he's been seeing in the mirror daily for a loooooooooooooong time but, along with that stunning visage of spinelessness is the knowledge that EVERYONE knows what a coward and theif and liar he is.

That's got to suck bigtime for a guy like mr. clark.

I wonder now if he actually bred all those frogs he's been selling or if he's just buying tads and selling them as they leg out.

 

[critical bill]

If you act like a scumbag, associate with scumbags, sell to scumbags, buy from scumbags, trade positive karma with scumbags, well....chances are you're a major scumbag.

Ed earned that label site wide for all those things and long before a ball python he may have traded off ever pooped a load of worms.

For all the things he's clearly guilty of above, I'm not sure if I really care if he could be innocent in this instance. There is enough in the history to say any smart person should wisely steer clear of him.

From blatantly misrepresenting animals, selling mite infested animals, crashing competitions classifieds.....

Benefit of doubt goes to Emily. Sorry it happened to you darling.

 

[reptile21]

Hey everyone this is a new guy.

Came here last night to look up Ed Clark and what people thought of him and I am glad I did. It most likely saved me from getting screwed.

First thing is : THANK YOU EMILY!! For bringing this to peoples attention and exposing a dishonest person.

Second: People want to debate if this is about parasites or waiting 10 months, it is neither. It is about a person who would not comment in this forum which he is or was part of and badmouthing Emily in other forums. THAT'S IT FOLKS. He does not live by his own advice and there seems to be quite a few people that say this guy is not on the up and up. That is good enough for me not to part with my money and buy a snake from him.

Third: Good call Wes. I sat and read the whole post beginning to end and you seem to have it dead on. Good job.

Once again I thank you Emily for hitting someone back when they hit you. He screwed you and you did something about it. Sorry for your stress thru this whole bag of worms.

TJ Georgitso

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

People want to debate if this is about parasites or waiting 10 months, it is neither. It is about a person who would not comment in this forum which he is or was part of and badmouthing Emily in other forums. THAT'S IT FOLKS.

Thank you for enlightening me! I thought this thread was about "Heavy Parasite Load Found in Ball Python from Ed Clark", like th title says.

Please don't get me wrong. I am certainly not a fan of Ed Clark's, especially after reading this thread! I am heartsick for Emily and what she is having to deal with, and she deserves to have answers from the breeder she got the snake(s) from.

There are other questions that remain unanswered:

1. Can Emily PROVE that the parasites originated from when the snakes were in Mr. Clark's possession?

2. Can Mr. Clark PROVE they didn't?

3. What would everyone's opinion on this situation be if the seller was someone other than Ed Clark? (Like any one of you, or me, for that matter... ???)

 

[Wilomn]

It makes NO difference to my opinion that mr. clark is the scumbag in the sites.

Even if it were Sammy, were he known to import, that right there, that alone, would have me over the fence on the side of the snakes coming WITH parasites.

The fact that mr. clark couldn't even remember which snakes he sent, cbb holdback breeders from his own "clean as you can get" stock or imports, was just icing on the cake.

I can't prove either way where they came from but, from over 20 years experience with ball pythons, imports as well as captive hatched and captive bred, my money is STILL on them having come FROM mr. clark with parasites. The load was most likely very low, but the fact that they were SUPPOSED to be CBB, which would 99% rule OUT having parasites, and that they had them, that seals the deal for me.

The plain and simple fact is, it COULD have happened. Take that COULD have and stack it on the FACTS that mr. clark is a liar, the mr. clark imports, that mr. clark has sent out mite ridden snakes and then said it was no big deal, that he stood to make a 650% MINIMUM profit off this deal and I come to the conclusion that he lied and sent Emily imports instead of CBB holdback from his own breeders, YEARLINGS mind you, and thought he made a great deal for himself.

He did, he sold his reputation.

Pretty cheap too.

 

[Dr Owens]

There are other questions that remain unanswered:

1. Can Emily PROVE that the parasites originated from when the snakes were in Mr. Clark's possession?

No.

2. Can Mr. Clark PROVE they didn't?

No.

3. What would everyone's opinion on this situation be if the seller was someone other than Ed Clark? (Like any one of you, or me, for that matter... ???)

It would all depend on how they handled the situation.

If someone called me, and said that they found parasites in a snake that I sold them (10 months after the fact), then I would:

1. Help them identify any potential areas of their husbandry which could have allowed this problem to arise.
2. Review my own husbandry practices for any potential problem areas.
3. I would do some random fecals (focusing on animals that could have been "around" the animals in question).
4. If I found a problem in my collection, then I would thank the person for the heads up, and then after helping them solve the problem on their end, I would try to do something nice for them as an expression of my gratitude. After that, I would go about identifying other people whom I might have sold to that could have been affected by the problem.
5. If I failed to find a problem in my collection, then I would explain that to the individual, and once again, I would try to help them find where things might have gone wrong on their end, and help them find solutions to the problem.
6. Most of all, I would provide whatever info/expertise that I could in order to try to help the person rectify the situation that had arisen (i.e. I would help them solve the problem).
7. Do I need to say it again??? I would help them solve the problem.

What I would NOT do:

1. Have to go back and check to see if I had sent them animals other than what I had guaranteed them that I would send.
2. Ignore them.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Do I need to say it again??? I would help them solve the problem.

Jay, I understand completely! That is exactly what I would have done as well. So would Wes. So would Sammy. So would most of us!

The fact that Ed Clark didn't is a given when we consider his track record lately. No denying that, and I am not defending him. I am trying to objectively defend the entire situation from a dealer's perspective.

So, let me re-phrase my last question:

If YOU had sold someone a snake, and nearly a year later that customer called you and told you it had parasites making accusations those parasites came from YOU, would you take responsibility as the source of the parasites? Some sellers may even be so pissed off over it that they might just blow-off the buyer.

If someone got a snake from any of you, and then after nearly a year found it had parasites and posted a thread about it here on the BOI, I can guarantee the wolf-pack would be circling the person that posted the thread!

Like Seamus said, "If one looks strictly at this incident and Emily's posts and removes the Ed part of the equation, it's not the kind of situation which many dealers would want to find themselves in."

 

[shrap]

If YOU had sold someone a snake, and nearly a year later that customer called you and told you it had parasites making accusations those parasites came from YOU, would you take responsibility as the source of the parasites?

If the snakes have been in quarantine the entire time as Emily has stated, combined with the other info provided by her vet I would seriously look into it. Because if it did come from me I want to know.

I would do a couple of spot fecals, some records checks and contact other people I sold to in that time frame to see if they have had any issues with their snakes. That is exactly what I would do. Not just say it is impossible that they came from me and not ever contact the person again. I have a responsibility to myself, my critters and my other customers to completely investigate the situation for the well being of the animals involved and to hopefully prevent the spread.

Some sellers may even be so pissed off over it that they might just blow-off the buyer.

If someone got a snake from any of you, and then after nearly a year found it had parasites and posted a thread about it here on the BOI, I can guarantee the wolf-pack would be circling the person that posted the thread!

Blowing the buyer off is what got the thread brought here in the first place. Which is the part I cant comprehend. I would never blow the person off. I dont think any of us would have blown off the buyer so the thread never would have made it here in the first place. We would have worked with her and her vet to find out all we could. Simply because it is the right thing to do.

 

[frankykeno]

Sorry Marcia but I don't get the whole point of your query. The fact is this does involve Ed and Emily and how Ed responded to Emily and the situation at hand. To say "well what about if it wasn't Ed" changes the whole dynamic, likely would have changed how things were dealt with (as Jay outlined) and therefore would have resulted in either no BOI thread in the first place or a significantly different thread.

I thought here at the BOI we were supposed to deal with facts or at least as many facts as can be gathered with the evidence provided not "what if's".

As far as the whole "wolf pack circling". Are you aware this is what kept many people from coming out about Chris Johnson. The worry that because his reputation at the time was sterling on the BOI, that they would be attacked and called liars for daring to express a concern. Same thing with Matt Graybeal and his service issues, no one wanted to speak up for fear of your "wolf packs" here at the BOI. I don't think it's a great thing to promote that sort of mindset.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

So, because a few of us are NOT afraid to speak out against the Clarks, Johnson's, Heynan's, Gubitz's, Lawson's and Graybeals of our industry, that makes us a wolf pack.


I can live with that.

 

[rabernet]

Same thing with Matt Graybeal and his service issues, no one wanted to speak up for fear of your "wolf packs" here at the BOI. I don't think it's a great thing to promote that sort of mindset.

I can speak from personal experience on this one - I'd watch someone lodge a complaint about Matt and get ganged up by Matt and his supporters and it was very frustrating, because I had had similar experiences as those bringing their concerns to the BOI. It took me over a year to work up the nerve to make the post that I did in Matt's long thread that ultimately became his demise. I spent 2 hours composing, re-drafting and backing up my experiences with e-mails from home and work. And even then, I was worried about how my post would be received.

Many times before that, those close to me who knew of my experiences with him would say "there's another Graybeal post, do you want to share your experience?" and I'd say - "let me watch this one awhile and see how this person is treated first".

Everyone who is criticizing Emily concedes that Ed is shady, that his behavior comes as no surprise (e.g. ignoring this thread save for one post), yet still think despite Ed's history of not taking ownership of his own mistakes, that Emily was wrong for bringing it here.

We're not talking about what any of YOU would have done, and how Emily would have been received if the thread were started about HONORABLE sellers, we're talking about a known history of Ed not responding when asked the tough questions, of having questionable practices and ethics. We're talking about Ed, not hypotheticals.

 

[Griz]

If YOU had sold someone a snake, and nearly a year later that customer called you and told you it had parasites making accusations those parasites came from YOU, would you take responsibility as the source of the parasites? Some sellers may even be so pissed off over it that they might just blow-off the buyer.

If someone got a snake from any of you, and then after nearly a year found it had parasites and posted a thread about it here on the BOI, I can guarantee the wolf-pack would be circling the person that posted the thread!

Like Seamus said, "If one looks strictly at this incident and Emily's posts and removes the Ed part of the equation, it's not the kind of situation which many dealers would want to find themselves in."

Marcia, I don't know if it's the time of day that you wrote the above or what but your not seeing the forest for the tree's. What you described is EXACTLY why we are stating this is no longer about parasites. The manner in which Ed handled this has become much more the focus then the origination of the parasites in question.

You're correct in that many of us would have been skeptical of the OP had this been about someone else. But then again, integrity has it's privileges. It's no different then if the thread would have been about Sal, or Boca or TSE. Who the thread is about will most certainly determine the manner in which most people approach the subject. Nobody is immune to that. It's the very reason why many of us try to stay above board in everything that we do.

When you start adding 2+2 together, it's not difficult to understand why the benefit of the doubt is no longer given to Ed. He's been here before and was proven to have lied and falsified the evidence. Is it no wonder that buyers and sellers as a whole no longer trust him? Is it no wonder that many people here believe the parasites came from him? Is it no wonder why Ed's business will very soon diminish from what it once was?

Karma's a fickle lady and she's struck Ed with a vengeance. And, might I say, it was rightfully deserved given the manner in which Ed has treated people.

Griz

 

[kmurphy]

For me this thread has become only about how Ed has handled himself with the OP. I won't deal with a seller that thinks so little of his customers. Even if he doesn't have the gonads to come here and post he should have dealt with Emily on a personal level.

 

[Wilomn]

Ahhhh The Wolf Pack. Such an interesting dynamic involved in being a part of it and another wholely different dynamic watching it feed, hoping you won't ever be a meal.

I'd be scared of some of us too were it not for one thing.

No matter how much most of we pack members back fellow pack members, when it is shown conclusively that one of us has gone bad, we do, finally, acknowledge that fall.

It's also been a learning curve for us, especially since virtual butt-sniffing doesn't give you all the same clues as to guilt or innocense as does an actual eyeball to eyeball whose head goes over whose neck meet up. Wolves can be fooled by that sheeps clothing too. But not forever.

I would hope that were it I accused of such as mr. clark that my reputation would be taken into consideration and that then the FACTS would be examined and a decision would be made on the FACTS, not how well liked I am/was.

That mistake has been made with matt and tse and while the sting of matt is still lingering, he was treated appropriately in the end. The next target will not have the same benefit of the doubt from the older members of the pack.

IF you have proof of wrongdoing you should be forthcoming with it. Guys like Sammy and Griz will look at the facts and then at the players and then decide what actions are warranted.

More so now than in the past.

Don't be shy, we need everyone to participate.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Marcia, I don't know if it's the time of day that you wrote the above or what but your not seeing the forest for the tree's. What you described is EXACTLY why we are stating this is no longer about parasites. The manner in which Ed handled this has become much more the focus then the origination of the parasites in question.

Got it. Thank you all for letting me see the error in my logic. It's so much brighter now that I am out of the forest!