Heika Sample ... Seller Beware

[Chameleon Company]

Folks,
It is my hope to get a thread going again back in Chameleon Forums about growth, after the hot air all vents here, as the fart gas belngs here and not there.
Matt raised it as more of an issue again, perhaps not as I would have.
But in regard to many innuendos, Heika's accusations, etc. Can someone first point me to a panther chameleon facility like mine, in a climate like mine, with the sun angles I have, that maybe they invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in as well, and where there's six years of experience in running greenhouse chameleon facilities under someone's belt ? Let's compare "apples to apples" if wondering "how they do it compared to my results" can only be answered as if its some great mystery (or they cheat). To all who have been a part of this rumor, and all the negative posts that have been on the trail leading to this thread, if you can't fathom that results indoors are always going to be handicapped when compared to what I have (look at my website www.chameleoncompany.com older pics sorry, or the interview with many pictures in Chris's E-Zine an issue or two back), then you are being deliberately ignorant so as to cast aspersions. We want to share some of the knowledge, and some will remain proprietary, but we need to have a thread that won't be hijacked by Heika again.

 

[alfon76]

I wanted to wait until the intensity died down so that my post was not brushed aside by whoever felt it necessary to do so. I am glad all the emails and pertinent information has been posted as it helps in what I am going to say.
As Veterinarians, we are a curious group in the literal sense of the word. We are always looking for information and how to do things better. We use every venue at our disposal to find the truth and reach an accurate diagnosis that helps us learn and treat our patients better. All I wanted was to find out what exactly was happening in this case. There was no way to take blame on the "MBD" claim as Heika wanted us to because:
1- She had the animals for 5+ months before the problems happened. This is long enough time for the blame to be on the primary caretaker (Heika) and not a dormant problem that waited until now.
2- She felt they were good enough to breed, and did so. Or I should say she did breed one, which is the one we know of here. We have no idea how the second one that died was diagnosed with MBD.
3- A diagnosis of MBD can't be reached by an X-ray only, and even less when the patient is gravid.
4- Heika made up her mind that her animal’s MBD was caused by our "growth enhancers", and since we don't use any products like that, we can't lend any validity to that claim.
My main interest and concern was on the tentative and rather quick diagnosis of filarial worms as the cause of death of her female. I never asked Heika to turn the full case over to me but rather to cooperate. As you all saw by now, there was no information leaving her vault. If indeed there were hundreds of worms feasting on her chameleon, I am sure 10 or 20 of these worms could have been spared for me to conduct my individual tests. Something worth noting here is that filarial worms are mainly blood parasites and they do not feast on organs like these were said to be doing. Not only would I have had a battery of colleagues look at the case with me, but I was going to have any and all tests also conducted by an independent Pathology Lab; the results would have been sent to Heika. If they turned out to be filarials, we would be shocked and definitely interested to find out any possible way this could have happened and more importantly, every possible way to prevent it. Heika refuses to see that and just lets her ego drive her. Her sole purpose now is to look like a victim and make us look as bad a possible as a company that knowingly sold her chameleons with a six-month “expiration date”.
It doesn't please me to see how ugly all this turned, but at least I know we exhausted all options before getting here.

Oh, and Chris, you and I MOST DEFINITELY have had our differences in the past but I, unlike you, have allowed myself to let all that go and keep on with my life. You appear to be a very bright person, so learn to let go of whatever "beef" you might have with me, as it will definitely make you a better person and allow you to see things clearly, instead of asking "unbiased" questions on any controversial thread my name is in. Don’t be lying in wait to take failed jabs at me, call me up or email me and we just might be able to get your animosity out of the way. You are smart enough to realize that while defending a friend in this case, you are not defending the truth.

Thanks to all for reading,
Ivan

 

[Chris Anderson]

Sorry for the delayed reply, been busy of late. I appreciate your patience in awaiting a response.

Matt – Your verbal diarrhea is always a joy to read. I don’t know where any of us would be without your tantalizing input on the shortcomings of an Ivy League education or the evil that is selling an animal for more then I paid for it. Thanks for the reply, buddy.

Everyone keeps pointing out that Jim went well and beyond his TOS in offering replacement animals and as I stated in the beginning of my initial post, his record for doing so is admirable but in this case, has absolutely nothing to do with the issue. The buyer wasn’t seeking replacement or threatening to go public on the forums as the picture painted in this thread would like everyone to believe. Any possible allegations (for arguments sake) were made in private conversation with Jim in the hopes of obtaining information to help the condition of her animals. I simply disagree completely with anyone who says she wanted anything other then assistance out of this problem and as a result, really has nothing to do with his TOS or his willingness to exceed them which I do not deny he tried to do.

Suncoast – Yes, we do interpret that differently. By increasing nutrient absorption in the form of lipid, carbohydrate and protein derivatives beyond what would normally be absorbed, “better” growth is achieved. Since prozyme does not impact the absorption rates of calcium, in a diet with balanced levels of minerals for normal absorption rates, the addition of prozyme would result in a need to proportionately increase the absorption of calcium and other minerals, whether naturally or not. Having a diet balanced in calcium for normal absorption rates is not crappy husbandry and artificially changing the absorption potential of nutrients does not necessarily indicate that changing the absorption rates of minerals to a proportionate level is even possible simply by increasing the mineral intake in the diet. At any rate, arguing the benefit or dangers of prozyme use in otherwise healthy animals is irrelevant to the BOI since Jim and Co. have made clear that they do not use it. I simply am stating that I don’t think its safety was solidified in the communications throughout the issue for the purpose of your initial statement.

Jim – Unfortunately, neither of us know how Heika stated her private communications to other individuals about the issues she was having. It is completely possible that the problems were discussed completely in a manner that does not fit liable definitions. It would have been possible for her to do so and still indicate the initial source of the animals. Unfortunately we can only make blind assumptions about this and in accordance to the rules of the BOI, I’m not going to get into that since neither of us have proof to draw on either way to the best of my knowledge. The only thing we can prove is that prior to Mr. Jillson’s outburst, she never posted such allegations or a connection to your company on a public forum as you have indicated in your previous posts.

Regarding the definition of LLC and shareholder, I’m pleased for you that you have legal definitions to hide behind. My comment was coming as a third party, potential customer that Jillson’s actions in company issues don’t make me want to do business with you or your company and I’m sure I’m not the only one who reacts like that. As has been pointed out, the chameleon community is small and having a lose cannon that is associated with your company involving themselves in company issues such as has been seen is a liability that one way or another you have to deal with, even if that is simply accepting potential lost business as a result. Legal definitions are great but they don’t necessarily mean your policy shouldn’t extend beyond them to prevent such negative implications on the company from the public eye. That’s just my 2 cents though, take it as you will.

You absolutely have every right to attempt to dispel the myth about your company and growth enhancing agent use but to me it seems like you decided it was Heika’s responsibility to provide you the evidence to do so and when she didn’t want to, you decided to paint an image of her to the public that exceeds its truth and what was deserving. You can disagree but in my opinion you painted your company out to have a bullying mentality that, based on my communications with other individuals, breeders and potential customers in the relatively small chameleon community since this situation began, rather then help dispel any myth and place your company in good light has turned many people away from wishing to purchase from you or associate with you. I’m sure it won’t kill your company but I’m not alone by any means in saying that I believe you went far beyond what was appropriate under the circumstances.

Ivan – If I were trying to get into it with you, felt like I had a beef with you I wanted to escalate or was just waiting around to attack something you had any type of involvement or association with, surly you’d agree that I would have posted something more directed at you then a question about theoretical metabolic impacts of a product used in otherwise healthy animals? I’m not sure why you feel that my involvement in this is personal in any way if you have gotten past our past differences as you say but it isn’t, nor is it with Jim or Matt. I simply disagree with how this was handled and having heard rumors of prozyme in the past, had questions about its potential impact I wished to discuss when the topic came up on chamforums (you’ll note I did not do so in an accusatory manner). I may see this differently then the three of you and those who have been swayed by Jim’s initial post having not seen the conversation on chameleonforums first, but it isn’t personal.

Since there really isn't anywhere else for this thread to go productively it seems, I won't be posting again on it. People will make their own opinions on the topic and I simply see it differently having followed the initial public threads on chameleonforums and then having seen this here.

Regards,

Chris

 

[reagorfu]

chris, what is your beef man? where do you see that jim was a bully? i think that you are trying to forget the fact that there is no proof what so ever of anything that this woman is claiming. no vet bill, no pictures, no body of the dead cham, none of the worms. why would you not be a little upset if someone says that there is something wrong with your animals and wont give you any proof at all. and could you tell me where to look for jim and ivan being rude? i saw nothing but them being very helpful. maybe i just missed a page or something, i really did think th i read the whole thing though.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Chris,
I have things to do, and welcome others to offer observations while I do them. Your logic still contains fundamentally flawed assumptions. I will be replying later tonight, but let me leave you with a hint of where I will be going. People's words or stated intent did not then explain their actions otherwise; and, the issue is not a black and white between "private", as in its "just between you and me", and "public" in that I won't post it in forum. Again I remind you that the malicious and lie-based "rumor" made it round without appearing in forum, and sure as heck wasn't private .... BTW, the battles between you and Matt far supercede the time at which he purchased 1/70th of my LLC, and before I even knew Matt. It is likely that many of those who represent the other 69/70th's of the LLC do not care for any of the pettiness that has gone on between you two regardless Do you think I approve of the stupidity ? Do you think I am not loaded with communications stating my disapproval ? You want to connect dots a certain way here Chris, and might I remind you that you did so a certain way three years ago, based on another bad assumption, and had to retract the connections then. If connecting dots is worthy here, be careful what you wish for!

One "fact" I do want to correct now. You state this:

The only thing we can prove is that prior to Mr. Jillson’s outburst, she never posted such allegations or a connection to your company on a public forum as you have indicated in your previous posts.

This very thread contains factual evidence posted by Heika that states otherwise. Kind of changes things, don't it. And its just the tip of the iceberg.


But in the meantime, here's a two questions for you. Since you "heard" the rumor some time back, did you pass it on to anyone else ? Did you provide information to anyone else who then used it so as to foment the rumor, regardless of whether or not your intent was for them to use it in such a way ?

I'll be back later.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Chris,

Lucky you, as a storm has driven me inside, and I have time to better address one of several flawed statements you made which reflect falsely on the actions of others:

Chris, from his last post:
Everyone keeps pointing out that Jim went well and beyond his TOS in offering replacement animals and as I stated in the beginning of my initial post, his record for doing so is admirable but in this case, has absolutely nothing to do with the issue. The buyer wasn’t seeking replacement or threatening to go public on the forums as the picture painted in this thread would like everyone to believe.

Chris, like it or not, I now had the beast of the rumor to deal with. You are correct that her emails did not "threaten" anything, and neither did her phone conversations. Its not about those. Its simply about what she did. Heika made allegations about the condition of her animals, very inappropriately laying the blame at our doorstep, and then refusing any and all documentation which she claimed to have. With that as a backdrop, the "non threatening" Heika posted this about the rumor in a thread. It was a thread I started designed to educate people about the issues at hand regarding digestive aids, and the falsehoods of the rumor. The thread was not about Heika, or her animals, and she had not been mentioned. This is all voluntary Heika:

Heika, 7-22-07 "It seems to me that at the core of every rumor, there is a kernel of truth. Perhaps some of your 16 inch long 5 month old panther chameleons led to this speculation

...... maybe that is crappy husbandry that could lead Prozyme to cause MBD " .

As you know, I do not have "16 inch long 5-month olds, etc.", and could care less about "kernals of truth" buried under loads of BS.. That's fomenting the rumor in public forum, as were several other of her posts on July 22nd.

Hmmmmm, now we have these words of yours Chris:

The only thing we can prove is that prior to Mr. Jillson’s outburst, she never posted such allegations or a connection to your company on a public forum as you have indicated in your previous posts.

Matt Jillson's "outburst" was on the 23rd of July, by which time Heika had made several posts, all based in lies, all fomenting the rumor in public forum. How would you like that crow served Chris ?

You said: I won't be posting again

OK. I have some other exceedingly questionable statements by you to illuminate, and I'll get to them later. You posted here voluntarily, made some incorrect statements, and rendered opinions which you cannot substantiate (kind of like fomenting a rumor, huh ?). I have the two easy questions put to you outstanding. Your silence may be deafening then. My guess would be that with the other areas of the chameleon world where you have established credibility, and your desire to see it and you cast in the best possible and constructive light, you will see the wisdom of coming here and having us all deal with the facts, not the innuendo's, not the "speaking for others", not by fomenting malicious and false rumors, etc. Just as men and women with the ability to deal with all as adults.

 

[LauraB]

re: female Ambilobe out of Anubis Jr.
Saturday, June 16, 2007 2:24 PM
...All of the other chameleons that I purchased from you (actually, all of the other chameleons period) have grown and thrived...

Yet, less than a month later: July 10 email to Jim:

I can’t imagine that you don’t know about this issue, and I want to know how you are treating your affected animals. I need to know. I also need to know if your animals are showing genetic problems. Are you seeing poor hatch rates out of treated animals? Are the offspring strong? Please be forthcoming, I need to know everything about this stuff, because I need to make decisions based upon what you have to say.

July 16 email to Jim and Ivan:

I have placed NO blame on your door step, nor have I asked for anything of ChamCo beyond information.

The email to Jim on 7-10 clearly places "blame". How could her accusatory questions be taken any other way? She already has decided there's an "issue" and is incredulous that he doesn't know about it. She doesn't ask if he might have affected animals, she wants to know how he's treating them; she's already assumed he has affected animals. She goes on to ask if he's seeing poor hatch rates out of treated animals; again, assuming he's treating animals she's already decided are affected! It's very clear from the beginning when she brought up the ProZyme & the MBD and this email that she had already decided where the blame lay.
============
Heika, Chameleon Forums,7-22-07:

"It seems to me that at the core of every rumor, there is a kernel of truth. Perhaps some of your 16 inch long 5 month old panther chameleons led to this speculation
...... maybe that is crappy husbandry that could lead Prozyme to cause MBD

I don't know how that post could be taken any other way but antagonizing, accusatory and again, a clever means of adding fuel to the fire and furthering the rumor. Of course, she did later recant, saying, "I must confess, I did exagerate about the 16" chameleon" (7-26 post here). What else has she exagerated? 100+ filiarial (first they were, now they're not) worms in a jar, maybe?
============
This from the other chameleon forum:

07-14-2007 04:59 AM
I am asking for assistance on a public forum because the wellbeing of my animals is my primary concern and I know that the knowledge I seek is here amongst our members, whether they will publicly admit to it or not. If someone does not feel comfortable posting a reply on the forum and has information that can assist my vet (who primarily treats mammals) and I in treating this, please feel free to email me privately at ----------.

Interesting, the vet she so vehemently defends treats primarily mammals.

From: Heika [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 5:46 AM
To: 'ivan alfonso'; '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: Pardalis problems you are having.

...My vet is a good vet. He cares immensely, has great skills, and I have entrusted the care of my animals to him for over 15 years.

Jim and Ivan had become increasingly arrogant, up to and including insulting my long time friend and vet.

And yet another post from that OTHER cham forum:

07-28-2006, 12:11 AM
Where are you in Oregon, Marina? I am in Klamath Falls, and it has been difficult (impossible) to find a good exotics vet.

This doesn't sound like someone with a great deal of confidence in the vet (and friend) she's taken her animals to for 14 years! Perhaps Jim was right to question credentials behind a blanket MBD diagnosis (and filarial worms, which of course, they are not)
============

Heika Sample, The Chameleon Forums, 7-23-07
I have had some problems with "bone density", as one fine owner of your company seems to prefer calling it. Amazingly, although all of my panther and veiled chameleons are housed in identical fashion, the problems have been limited to.. well.. 6 animals. All 6 were purchased from the same company. You can guess which that might be.

Again, not very subtle, Heika. And a rather underhanded means of naming the "company" without actually naming the "company". You're smart enough to know that others in the chameleon community are smart enough to figure it out without you actually incriminating yourself. I know I did.
============

http://www.reptilerooms.com/forumtopic-54189.html
July 18, 2007 Reptile Rooms Forum post
I have been told by a major breeder of chameleons that MBD susceptibility is more pronounced in some genetic lines. Or, more specifically, some genetic lines are more prone to problems with bone density than others in captive conditions.

Heika

That is true, unfortunately...and unfortunately, this might be the case for Heika's chams. Jim told her in an email on July 10, "Whatever I shipped was in the full belief that the animals were fine and fit, and I have to go on the assumption that they appeared the same to you when you received them, for I have heard nothing otherwise. We retain no animals from 2 of every 3 clutches we produce. I have nothing from the winter Nosy Be's here."

Yet, she persisted with the derogatory remarks and emails. Yet,it still looks like she wanted to dredge up mysterious ailments caused by a growth-enhancing substance that Jim and Ivan have already said repeatedly they do not use and/or 100+ filiarial worms (first they were, now they're not) that now she either cannot and even if she can, will not substantiate with documentation, despite first saying she would.
============
Now on a different note, this 2005 post I dredged up. This certainly doesn't sound like a breeder who is unwilling to share information or expertise even at the cost of admitting his own mistakes.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73917&page=1&pp=5

12-10-2005, 06:27 PM #9
Chameleon Company
Registered User


Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,331
Name : Jim Flaherty

Re: how to prevent MBD in hatchlings

Shari,
A good topic. Good advice so far, although there's room for more info. First off, and unfortunately, your offspring may be genetically predisposed to MBD. They can recover from this with the proper diet, but may suffer through a couple months of visual symptoms, and perhaps always bear some of the bow-legging scars, etc. As for "crickets being too small to dust", there is no such thing, although you may need a finer powder. Try Citrical powder. So far, results with calcium citrate are better than with some of the commercial calcium dusts. You can also buy calcium citrate on-line. Its pricier than calcium carbonate products, but also finer ground. I think Ronnie at Cricketfood can hook you up with all. Also, using chicken mash, especially that designed for "chicks" is a giant no-no. Medicated is to put it mildly, as many contain growth hormones (not on label) that go right through your crickets and into your chameleons. And they work, except that the downside of having some chameleons reach adult size in four months (no joke), they will have enormous bone problems. I did this to about 200 chameleons once, and I know. Switch to the gutloads recommended. Also, you can feed larger crickets than what is pictured, fully up to a length equal to the distance across the top of the head of the chameleons, or roughly twice the size of the crickets pictured. Insect feeders that you cannot gutload are of little value, especially fruit flies. If ever you get into raising mealworms, they and crickets are plenty. Good luck!

At no time did I did read any emails or message board postings by Jim or Ivan that I would have perceived as arrogant, rude, condescending or demeaning. Heika's general demeanor throughout, however, struck me as exactly how she so over-dramatically described them as being and at times nearly bordered on childish!

~ Laura Bolt,

 

[Chameleon Company]

Geez Laura, the stuff I miss by not keeping up with all the forums ! Heika, you got some more 'splaining to do. I will have more to say in the coming days, and wish a few would wise up first and be pro-active in fixing their mistakes before I attempt a remedy. There are some questions on the table for you Chris. All you or I should expect from each other is the truth, is it not ?

Good post and research Laura. Where do you find this stuff ? Can you send me the links ? Might be nice for me to go there and link back to this thread if I think things are being misrepresented.

 

[alfon76]

Chris, as I already stated, you are not dumb so you know exactly what you are doing. Even playing innocent you sound guilty and I am glad to read I am not the only person who thinks that. You said that it was a moot point to discuss the ProZyme statements because we don’t use the product, yet you keep trying to explain your point as to why you are right. Let me try one last time to explain this to you.

Every chameleon keeper and breeder attempts to reach the proper or adequate nutritional balance for their animals. We aim to provide the right calcium, vitamins and every other nutrient we can to grow them healthy. In doing so we are providing the most balanced nutrition we can in hopes that our chameleons will get 100% of that nutrition. The reality is that they don’t absorb everything we give them and thus we have to keep at it in hopes that some gets absorbed in the proper quantities. Along comes a product like Pro-Zyme and provides a way for the body to absorb more than what is currently being done, and this is supposed to be a bad thing according to you? This product is supposed to be the direct cause of excessive growth and calcium deficiencies? Could it be that an animal exposed to poor husbandry and then exposed to Pro-Zyme simply develops the problems sooner rather than later due to that poor husbandry? Food and water aid growth, Pro-Zyme aids absorption. I think you are very mistaken in your quest to prove a lie to be true.
Here is a copied statement from the ProZyme site:

PROZYME® IS A UNIQUE, SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN, ALL NATURAL ENZYMATIC FOOD SUPPLEMENT. It provides the necessary digestive enzymes that were destroyed for the sake of economy and shelf life. The addition of PROZYME® allows greater absorption of the important nutrients found in your pet’s food.
PROZYME® is a combination of four highly concentrated and purified natural plant-derived enzymes (lipases, amylases, proteases, and cellulases). All ingredients are of human grade quality. PROZYME® is not a drug and will not interfere with any medication or therapy. In fact, PROZYME® will enhance any therapy that your pet is presently receiving and should be used as part of therapy preventive care regimen. PROZYME® is beneficial for all pets whether your pet is a dog, cat, bird, horse, rabbit, ferret, ostrich, or exotic pet.
Enzymes are really the key to good nutrition. Even if you fed your pets huge amounts of vitamins, minerals, carbohydrates, fats and protein, without the enzymes to break them down, most would pass right through the digestive system and not get absorbed. Why waste these valuable nutrients? Just add PROZYME® and get more nutrition from the same amount of food. PROZYME® adds the dietary enzymes so your pets can extract the nutrients that are so essential to their health.
PROZYME® is not going to turn junk food into something nutritious. It only increases the absorption of nutrients that are already in the food. But, PROZYME® does help extract many of those nutrients your pets couldn’t absorb before. Thus, PROZYME® increases the nutritional value of whatever you feed your pets, and your pet stays healthier, livelier, and happier.
The statement says it all by itself, but I guess it would be biased because it is their product, right? As a matter of fact I went as far as to call them up and ask for detailed information regarding your “concern”. I have not heard back from them but hope that I do, so I can provide you with the data you need. I am starting to think that you, Chris, have more to do with this lie/rumor than I thought. After all, you do communicate regularly with Heika, you both belong to the same tight chameleon groups (that you loosely call the chameleon community), and you both admitted that you have heard about this lie/rumor before. It seems apparent to me that your quest to prove your point is to lend relevance to Heika’s claim that we caused a 6-month latent MBD. You might want this to be true because maybe you help spread it? You are both part of the problem and not the solution.

I want to thank you Chris for making it easy for me to see why it is that we never see eye to eye.

 

[AF Exotics]

I am curious and would like to know is this discussion in any way trying to associate or attribute these problems to the feeder gutload produced by Cricketfood.com.This is a product I use exclusively for my feeder roaches and have had great results.Forgive me in advance if my question is off base,but the gutload of the feeder insect is a direct part of the diet,as we are all aware of and I am trying to understand if there is some association stronger than the slight inferences I see, to said feeder gutload.Thanks,Marcus Quesada.

 

[alfon76]

Marcus, unless Heika and/or Chris decide to switch the lie/rumor to the gutload by Cricketfood.com, it is not about it. It was mentioned in this discussion because the lie/rumor started with us supposedly using a pro-biotic that directly influenced growth rate in our chameleons. Jim mentioned that the only pro-biotic we have used is the one in the formulation from CricketFood's gutload when we mix their product with Jim's own gutload. So you shouldn't worry about a thing as Ronnie's gutload will have no ill effects on your roaches or any other animals that consume it.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Good question Marcus, and the answer is "No". The target of all of this is not to undermine that gutload, although those seeking to spread the accusations and malice could care less who they soiled had they been able to make any of this stick. As mentioned many eons ago, it is a widely used commercial gutload, with a wide base of acceptance and endorsement in the broader community, not to be confused with Chris's community, and every keeper Heika talks to. Ronnie's stuff is field tested more than any other premium gutload available. It is safe and a quality product. The rumor was never about facts, or caution, or the truth. It was fomented by those with a different agenda. They aren't exactly stepping up to the plate of late, are they ?

 

[AF Exotics]

Thanks for clearing that up Ivan,as I have had nothing but good results,and unless someone brought hard facts about Ronnie's products having any harmful effects,I will be using them .

 

[AF Exotics]

..............and a thank you to Jim also.I saw some mention of the gutload and I wanted to be sure.I have nothing but high praise for what Ronnie Buck produces and have used his gutloads for the past 6 years I believe,2 years of use before I ever came out and put a positive testimonial on his site.Great stuff and not to forget,hopefully someone comes out with some real hard facts to either prove their insinuations,or publicly apologize concerning the heart of this thread.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Thanks to you as well Marcus.

Not holding my breath on it though. There are several unsavory and unfortunate things about the events illustrated here. Likely the greatest tragedy are the animals in Heika's care, one or more of which had real problems if things are as she has said. I have no reason to doubt that Heika wanted what was best for her animals. While she searched for information, and maybe even a remedy, she was spoon fed by others to serve an agenda that detracted from where her focus should have been. They had an agenda, and she was the dupe. She’s a big girl, with hundreds if not thousands of posts in various chameleon forums, and the responsibility for the choices she ultimately made lies with her. But in less than two weeks of contacting me about her problem, and being fed the BS by others, she was reduced to saying this about chameleons now their sixth month of care with her: "I am not sure even now if the responsibility lies with me..." I sincerely hope she seeks help for her chameleons with an objective eye, while also facing the grim reality that failure is something we all encounter with these critters. It sucks. Its expensive. Its heartbreaking. And its reality.

So what is truly going on? From this thread, either as an original statement, or posted email, we have :

Heika, 7-14-07 email: I have heard rumors of it from every major chameleon keeper that I speak to regularly.

Chris 7-30-07, post #43: As has been pointed out, the chameleon community is small .......you painted your company out to have a bullying mentality that, based on my communications with other individuals, breeders and potential customers in the relatively small chameleon community since this situation began ....

Every keeper ? Kind of like "Me and my invisible friends", although they aren't truly invisible, just nowhere now to be found when the lights are turned on. They are not posting here on behalf of either of you. With this thread so lop-sided one way, and yet your alleged input from others unnamed so lopsided in the other way, things appear a bit truth challenged somewhere …… but wasn’t the original rumor ? So why should anything be any different now ? In any of the threads that have dealt with this, why has not one entity stepped up?

The chameleon community is not relatively small Chris. The overwhelming number of folks who work with them, sell them, advertise on the internet, do shows, and even participate in forum discussions are good people who would never soil themselves as some have chosen to do of late. What you have here is a few vendors, all close as a group, who don’t have enough faith in their own product and service to compete above-board. Add a couple of forum rats who earned the title, and a couple of hangers-on. You now have Chris’s small “community” and Heika’s “every major chameleon keeper that I speak to regularly”. Heika was in regular communication with one or more of these vendors throughout this ordeal, and lucky her, she gets thrown under the bus when she flubs her lines, as Laura so effectively pointed out.

I had another breeder/keeper ask me the other day what's up with all the baseless and petty attacks on my business of late, all fomented by the same small group, which this rumor was just one more example of. While the rumor may go back a few months, as I truly do not know, the more-public portions of the sniping started with an ad by a chameleon vendor out west a few weeks back, which claimed one of my bloodlines was invalid. In his email explanation to me when I asked him to explain his error, he said he knew better than I the difference between a Tamatave and an Ambilobe, two locales of panther chameleons. This position also blindly ignored that the animal in question was a consensus Ambilobe by all others, that has produced many clutches of offspring that have colored up Ambilobe. The thread about it was eventually removed as the regular suspects hijacked it, the same toes on our one-legged example, one poster in a self-confessed inebriated state. Then there was this thread, found at this link, that was actually a re-do (by me) of a thread started by another of the "small community" of toe jam, the original thread being removed, for it became absurd quickly as well. I wanted to set the record straight to those who had read the first thread, which had been removed before I posted in it. My resurrection of the issue in the new thread explains the chronological sequence regarding that episode of sniping :
http://www.chameleonforums.com/bonaparte-aka-hannibal-4856/#post33976
While some names are mentioned in other threads, my object here is not to name them all over again, expand the list, start a witch hunt, or point fingers. I also cannot insulate those who have posted from their own words. My intent is to show that this "small community", that Chris and Heika lean on for implied support, and which has fomented the false information, is not an objective cross-section of the broader community worthy of any respect curried from such. Rather, it’s a blemish on it.

There are "loose cannons" as you put it Chris, in every community. There are "loose lips" too, and I have a sheath of communications forwarded me by others that give me the answers to many of the questions I have already asked in this thread. As I have asked before, why did no one in your "small community" ever come to me with the allegation which was the rumor ? Why did they take the time to feed Heika all the BS she could swallow instead ?

To those out there who were fed the rumor by someone else, I would hope only that you take a look again at who told it to you, and answer to yourself why they did it. If the answer is an honorable one to any of you, then I guess you will be continuing to put your trust in such places.

To those who reflect the better aspirations of this hobby and business, my heartfelt thanks for letting me earn a living doing now what I did as kid many moons ago.

 

[Keith Northrop]

Man that's one complicated thread.....

Is there a pre-requist Like Hieka 101?
At fisrt I thought it was some kind of conspiricy.....Trade Secret espionage.......Understood only by Vets, Doctors or Scientists.....that all went to the Worms?......a word for Heika.....HaHaHa....."Ross Perot" said
surround yourself with people of higer intellect......It rubs off....
I just wanted to post on Jim's thread. Later

 

[Jim O]

I (and likely others as well) are still waiting to see a shred of documentation of any of Heika's claims. So far all we have seen are accusations and nothing more.

I agree with Jim F that Heika is a customer to be avoided based on what she has publicly implied without even a morsel of evidence.

Now Chris, some questions have been addressed to you, specifically

Since you "heard" the rumor some time back, did you pass it on to anyone else ? Did you provide information to anyone else who then used it so as to foment the rumor, regardless of whether or not your intent was for them to use it in such a way ?

How about some honest answers? And while you're at it, how about the source(s) of the rumor. Name them, in the interest of full disclosure, and so Jim F can face his accuser(s) directly, instead of via their patsies, you and Heika.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Come to the stage Heika,

Thanks Jim O and others. I was not surprised that Heika and Chris and others did not post here again. Considering that they were being asked to be accountable for their words and actions, which were not based in facts or experience, and my belief at this point that some of Heika's accounts of things were fabricated at this point, the BOI was not a safe playground for them.

I now have reports from a customer that Heika sought them out, as they were considering a purchase and asked for input in a forum. Heika emailed that they call her. When they did, she continued the same slander, the rumor about growth hormone, and all her other false allegations as outlined earlier in the thread, so as to defame me and my business. I would advise to all who read here, who may have also seen any of Heika's thousands of posts in other forums, that she is both inexperienced and irresponsible regarding the advice she gives.

I have often praised Chris Andersen in the past for his work maintaining the Chameleon E-Zine, and provided them an interview with many pictures last Fall. In that context, I am still exceedingly disappointed with his shallow positions here, characterized by a weakness of knowledge in his statements and logic, and his lack of temerity to defend his statements once made. My impressions are that Chris had to import the silliness of past feuds with others to resurrect the stupidity all over again. To that end, job well done Chris.

Heika, if you are sure enough to say it to someone you don't know over the phone, c'mon on down here, put it in writing, and let it get some scrutiny in the light-of-day. Defend your right of free speech to slander others. Or do you still prefer the whispers and rumors ? I still wish you success with your chameleons.

 

[LauraB]

Chameleon Forums post/response by Heika, 07-23-2007 01:27 PM:
Originally Posted by Chameleon Company (Post 33558)
"You seem to have an axe to grind, shovel to purchase, etc. etc. Rather than continue things in this vein here, which I believe a few find tedious and unbecoming, might I suggest taking your concerns to the BOI and chop or dig away? I believe it has a reputation more well suited for such exchanges. Otherwise, I would ask Brad to give things a look and snip the snipes as he did before. My hope was to illuminate certain things here. Mission accomplished. Of course, if certain things would rather wallow here, then in the mud they will be !"
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Her response to above:
"Oh, I am sorry, I thought that we were all about open exchange and clearing the air. No, I won't go to the BOI.. I don't like to play in other people's playgrounds. If you have an issue that you feel needs to be addressed there, I would certainly love to respond. There may even be an army that would like to chime in.. there usually is over on the BOI. Yes, you are very good at illuminating certain things on this lovely forum.. as we have seen in the past. Since you seem keen on dropping it, I will.. I feel much more illuminated than before you posted this thread, do you feel better about things, Jim"
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You are correct, Jim, she doesn't like playing in other people's playgrounds as she stated above. She obviously prefers playing in the shadows, knowing full well she cannot substantiate one word of her baseless claims, so now has to resort to new cowardly tactics to "recruit" allies. Unfortunately for her, as she continues to display dishonorable behavior in an attempt to discredit you, she's ultimately destroying any iota of credibility she may have thought she still had.
Why didn't she just publicly post her opinion in response to the inquiry on the other forum instead of privately emailing and asking the inquiring party to call her? Because she's sneaky, obviously two-faced and clearly WANTS to continue discrediting a successful breeder and spreading baseless rumors to further her own agenda, to wit:

Heika's email to Jim of July 10, posted here on 7-25, post #10:
"I don’t want to go public with this.. no BOI, no nothing. I don’t want my breeding stock or my husbandry to be viewed as substandard. My success as a new breeder depends upon a good reputation, and I don’t want that smear on my name."

Another email from Heika to Jim, July 11:

"While I am glad to hear that others also had problems with the nosy be clutch, I believe the responsibility falls back to me to reassess my husbandry practices. Something is working well with my other chameleons that isn't working well with the ones I purchased from you. Perhaps the transition from your greenhouse to artificial lighting is the cause. I am coming up with a new supplementation schedule for the remaining four females to see if I can knock this out...."

"Please, Jim, I want my name left out of any discussion or controversy surrounding this. I agree that it needs to be addressed. I think this rumor is affecting your business and reputation more than you realize."
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Still, she persists, lowering herself even further by secretly trying to disuade a potential customer with lies and rumors.
I think Heika's future(?) business and reputation has already been tarnished, by none other than herself. Breeders/sellers beware! This could be you next!

~ Laura Bollt

 

[Chameleon Company]

Not to be lost in the shuffle ...

And which I believe is fundamentally more at fault than even Heika here, is that she was fed this rumor, and then had it nurtured, by others in the business. Whether they either had their own pusillanimous axe to grind, as Chris' long-standing feud with others, or felt it was a competitive tool for them to use, I have more than enough feedback from others regarding those specifically who fomented it. These are entities that advertise regularly on Kingsnake, and yet not one has the culliones to post here and defend their actions, or retract their contributions to this stupidity. They tarnish the entire community, many of whom are very decent and hardworking hobbyist/breeders who try to succeed by improving their own lot, and not by spreading falsehoods about others. A few are already aware of my contempt, and current feeling that they are not much above whale dung for their involvement here. They could call me when they needed info about chameleon husbandry etc, some even asking to purchase a quantity of animals, while simultaneously whispering along the rumor, some feeding Heika the BS directly, with never the integrity to call me about it. The silence from that quarter is currently deafening. So long as Heika chooses to be the vindictive "I am not responsible" mouthpiece stood up by others, the issue will remain active, and more will be pulled to the spotlight. If that's what it takes, its OK by me.