!HELP! Frog STILL Not Eating !HELP!

[Night10gail]

I've tried everything I can think of and everything the breeder suggested, so I'm turning to the amphibian community to see if anyone has any other ideas that may've been over looked. First I'm going to list/go over some introductory info and then list what I've tried.

ANIMAL
Frog: Vietnamese Mossy Frog (Theloderma corticale)
Sex: Male
Age: Unknown, but he's an adult
Acquired: December 6, 2014 (a little over 1 month ago)
Breeder: Rainforest Junkies
Native Habitat: Caves and rocky shores of Vietnam

SETUP
Cage: 5.5gal glass aquarium
Substrate: None; cage is filled with 3'' of still water
Decor: floating foam egg crate lid, sm. plastic plant, foam climbing rung,
floating lg. clear food dish, and vine (newly added).
Temperature: room temp of 72F
Humidity: the cage is full of water so I haven't been tracking this as it's easily
at least 50%
Note: This is a quarantine setup and is only temporary. I quarantine every
new arrival. For people not very familiar with quarantining: the cage
is meant to be undersized for the animal, the setup is meant to be
simple, and the decor is meant to be disposable. This is designed to
provide easy monitoring of the animal, make clean up easy for
maintaining sanitary conditions, allow examination of debris free
excrement, and allow animals to more easily find their food by keeping
it closer to them.

WHAT I'VE TRIED
* I started out with the cage having a large water bowl (about 50% of the cage) and a paper towel substrate with a foam egg crate lid propped up in the corner to create a 3 sided hide. I had a foam shelf for him to climb on with a sm. plant and foam piece over hanging the water dish. Food was offered in a small clear glass dish. Upon talking to the frog's breeder about him not eating I switched to the more aquatic setup described above. This setup mimics the setup the breeder had raised him in, only the breeder used cork bark floating slabs not floating foam pieces. The breeder confirmed my temperature,humidity, and prey size as being correct. The breeder said his setups are kept basic, focus around water not land, and no heating or lighting is used.
* I've tried offering all kinds of different food items (mealworms, earthworm pieces, red worms, wax worms (haven't had any herp turn them down), aquatic amphibian pellet food, a live guppy, and crickets as the main offering of course). The only thing I can think of that I haven't tried is some sort of flying food and I am waiting on a wax worm to pupate as we speak. Note: the breeder only ever feeds his frogs crickets from a clear dish floated on the water.
*After the first 2 weeks of not eating I started keeping the cage covered with a towel to give a better sense of security and keep the cage darker. The cage is in a fairly quite, low traffic area of the apartment and while he can see filtered natural sunlight for a natural day-night cycle, the cage stays in shadow even without the towel.
*I've tried a few methods of food presentation. Mainly I've offered it out of a dish, which is how the breeder feeds his frogs. I've seen my frog sitting next to the dish of crickets but paying no attention to the crickets as if he either didn't see them or wasn't interested in eating. I have tried tong feeding, a bare feeding tub (twice and only during cage maintenance that required removing him from the cage to begin with), and I've left feeders running freely around the cage for a short time.
* Note: the frog has not be bothered, handled, photographed, moved around, etc except during cage maintenance.

OTHER & QUESTIONS
*At current I'm experimenting with different vitamin supplements on the prey items, starting with Zoo Med's Repti Cal only because it was used by the breeder. The breeder used various brands and types of supplements, which were not offered in consistent combination, frequency, or amount. I.e. the frog is use to a variety of supplements offered alone or together and he's also not use to a certain schedule. Up until now I have not coated offered prey with any supplements as picky eaters can be turned off by the smell, color, look, etc of supplements (usually only certain ones).
* I just added a reptile vine to offer a change in textures in case he's having a problem gripping onto anything to be able to climb into the food bowl in order to eat his food. It also provides a more stable place to perch outside of the water since it's anchored not floating.
* I am keeping food available to him 24/7 in his floating dish. I have been keeping food in his cage all the time since the first week I got him so he can eat when he's hungry and feels safe enough to do so. Gives him plenty of time to notice the food.
* The frog looks over all healthy and besides not eating doesn't show any other signs of possible illness. He's not very active, but I don't know how active this species is suppose to be. Plus, being nocturnal with the cage always covered he could be being very active once everyone is fast asleep for all I know. I do know the species survives in the wild using it's moss camouflage, which involves remaining completely still.
*Since I got him until current his nuptial pads are still very swollen and visible. Not sure if they always remain like that or not, but I could've sworn I read somewhere that nuptial pads aren't as large or visible outside of mating season. I'm wondering if perhaps he's not interested in food because he's got his mind on finding a female to mate with. However, I have not heard him croak at all despite my male Red-Legged Running Frog (Kassina Maculata) often calling briefly each night from the cage next to his. In case you're wondering I own no female frogs at all so there's not even one near by that he could be sensing. I don't know if the breeder took him from an active breeding group of frogs, or if he was a retired breeder (recently or long term retired) taken from an all male tank. He may've just been an excess male that's never even been put with a female.
* Could too small a cage cause eating problems? I've quarantined every new pet I've gotten using a cage half the size of the recommended minimum for the animal's species and size without every having encountered an eating problem this sever. Usually covering the cage and/or trying what and how food is offered does the trick along with minimizing stress. My frog does act as if he feels too exposed, but I've mimicked the breeder's bare bones setup only using different materials. Not sure what else I could add that's disposable or easily sanitized during the quarantine period (in case he does develop sings of disease).
* Could my frog possibly be blind or deaf? How could I tell and do if so?
* My frog is shedding a LOT, what could cause that? About once a week practically I find a complete shed from one of his feet floating in his water. I know in snakes shedding this frequently is a sign of a skin damage or disease but I see no open wounds, fungus, sores, discoloration, swelling, or signs of mites. Is it possible he's shedding frequently just in order to eat his shed as a source of nutrients in order to survive in an environment where he perceives there is absolutely no food? I know many animal have such strange survival mechanisms.
* The frog has lost weight since I got him, but he's not emaciated. He's a streamline, trimmed frog but not too skinny for a frog yet. I'm wondering if there's something I've been doing wrong or didn't do that I should've done? I want to rule out keeper's error before I stress the frog out with a winter vet trip and was wond

 

[rcarichter]

A couple things come to mind. First, these guys are not fans of still water. Filtered and slow-moving is really important. Second, cage size could definitely be problem. Try putting him in a 10 gallon. In a small tank, he's going to focus on hiding, not eating. Lastly, I would let a few crickets loose in the cage and leave them. Give him a chance to wait for prey to come to him. Put a few floaty things in the water, because most crickets have a death wish, but allowing him to ambush is a better way to go.

 

[Night10gail]

I was worried about the still water, but the breeder said he never kept the water moving in any way, so since I was trying to replicate his setup I didn't bother putting in a filter. I have extra fish bubblers and air stones, would just that to move the water be okay? The breeder dumped all the water twice a month and put in fresh to clean his tubs, but I'm using the bare bottom vacuum/scoop out dirt method. I tried letting crickets and worms loose in the cage and he still didn't eat, actually he was running away from the crickets because they were bothering him. You'd think he'd feel more secure in a smaller cage because there'd be less empty space to cover. That's actually why a smaller cage is suggested for quarantining, it's easier to keep more dense cover in it and is easier for animals to find food because they have less space to travel to find it. I do have a clear Rubbermaid that's the equivalent of a 10gal that I can try. What do you suggest I add to give him more cover so he doesn't feel so exposed? The breeder's setup was a 66qt bare bottom tub filled with several inches of water, a cork bark slab floating on top, a clay pot underwater, and a floating food dish. That's it. No filter, no artificial lights, no heaters, no aerators, no plants. I've mimic this setup based on his suggestion to make the frog feel more comfortable so he'll eat.

 

[rcarichter]

Sounds like you're doing what rainforest told you. I would try the larger tank before worrying about filtering, as long as you're sure your water is safe. When people use floating food dishes for these guys, they're often the size of a shoebox. Since you have other frogs, I'm sure you know not to use distilled water, right? The breeder I know feeds only once every 4-5 days, so they don't eat much anyway. So, maybe pop him into the larger tank, give him plenty of plants to blend with, and see what happens. Just an aside, I had an adult pacman that stopped eating for almost a year (I still offered food weekly). When he snapped out of it, he took 2 adult mice.

 

[Night10gail]

I forget why you're not suppose to use distilled water but I know not to use it. You're only suppose to use bottled water filtered by reverse osmosis. I age (let tap water sit out in an open container for 24-48+ hours) all my water to naturally remove the chlorine through evaporation. Think this removes other things as well, but I'm not sure. However I do know it leaves good minerals such as calcium in the water. Water aging is a method that's widely used and suggested for everything that lives in or drinks water. I've aged all my water like this for all my reptiles (been doing this for my Crested Gecko for the 2 years I've had her). Same way I've prepared all my water for my other frog, who is doing great. I know you can get tap water conditioner too to remove the chlorine, heavy metals, and make tap water safe. A repeatable pet store said the Stress Coat brand tap water conditioner sold for fish is the same thing as the actual ZooMed Repti-Safe tap water conditioner. What do you think? Think it'd be okay to use the Stress Coat I have to make my frog's water safe as keeping the large volume of aged water I need for him is difficult sometimes? Stress Coat I'm pretty sure is all natural herbal extracts (like aloe) and enzymes though the bottle doesn't actually give a list of ingredients like ReptiSafe does. I know Stress Coat is designed to be healthy for a fish's scale slime coat so I'd think it'd be good for amphibians' slime coat too.

I forgot the breeder said he had a clay pot in the water of his tubs so I grabbed an old mug we hate from the cabinet, rinsed it well and added that to the tank as an underwater cave. Also, taking your suggestion, I popped an air bubbler in the tank before I ran out to work. I couldn't find my air stones though so it's just bubbles right out of the tubing. Saurian Enterprises noted that while they have never used moving water to breed/keep their mossy frogs, they did note that other people have found it a requirement. Guess what, I came home from work and he was climbing on the glass and I just heard him jump. That's the most activity I've caught out of him ever! =) Maybe adding a current did the trick and he'll start eating now. Since he's acting happier I'm going to leave him in the 5.5gal for a week or two and see how it goes as not to cause him stress now that he's showing improvement. If he still doesn't eat on his own after a weeks or so I'll move him to the 10gal Rubbermaid I have as you suggested. I'll go pick up another plastic plant in the meantime for the 10gal tub.

 

[Night10gail]

Oh, and rcarichter (Noelle Richter) I wanted to say thank you for all your friendly advice. I was so worried about posting about my problem and as my first post to boot. I didn't want anyone to think of me as someone ill prepared who bought a cool looking animal on a whim. I'm a very responsible pet owner. I did do days worth of research between all the care sheets, Youtube videos, and various forum discussions I could dig up on this uncommonly seen species, not to mention all the research I did on various frogs I liked so I could choose which one(s) were best for me (and I'll tell you there's no shortage of reptiles I love to own but find their requirements too difficult or too expensive to meet at least currently). I make Youtube info videos myself and always preach research as well as quarantine. However, I always find no matter how much research I do I still have questions after I've gotten the animal. Mostly it's fine tuning sort of things and there is always room to learn more after all. Keeping any animal, interacting with it, observing it is a learning experience in and of it's self.

When I got my woma python I was freaked out because I kept finding hard white balls in his tank and he wasn't pooping. I thought he had kidney stones or was compacted. One look at a good, info/detail heavy ball python care sheet told me what I was experiencing was normal but the woma care sheets never mentioned that their urate is a paste that dries rock solid in 5min and that their digestive tract is so good at exacting nutrients that they only typically poop once a month. You'd think at least the later would be a good fun fact to include in a woma python care sheet. Why would I think to look at care sheets for ball pythons when I'm interested in buying a different species of python? I'm a colubridae person so pythons and boas are a whole new experience for me.

I was also worried that the only help I'd get would be several "Take him to the vet" replies, which doesn't help me immediately correct anything that is of my error that could be causing the issue in the first place and it doesn't give me something to do while trying to get into the vet's office. A busy vet may not catch a small keepers error like the experienced herp community can, because like I said you learn as much by raising an animal as you can from reading about it, and what's the chances the vet has personally kept pet frogs and personally experienced my issue? Anyway thank you so much for your constructive, friendly mannered replies.

 

[rcarichter]

No problem Megan. Glad he's doing better! I hope none of us ever stop learning from one another.

Noelle

 

[Night10gail]

Noelle and everyone my mossy frog, Barbosa has been much more active since adding a bubbler to his tank to add a current to his water. However, he's still not eating voluntarily. I've seen him sitting next to the dish of crickets and on the rim but the crickets that go missing from the bowl are found crawling around his cage. Not sure if he spooks them out of the dish when he goes for them or they're using him as a ladder to get out. Anyway I just had to force feed him again today (2nd time ever so I've been really spacing it out). Per Noelle's suggestion that he may be feeling cramped, I just moved him into a clear 9.3gal snap lid plastic storage container I had on hand and kept the bubbler. I filled it almost halfway with water and up-sized the food dish. The dish and tub are clear but semi-cloudy so hopefully the tub will make him feel less exposed. The new food dish is plastic rather than glass, so it does float around more easily but is quiet when it bumps against the walls. The container bottom is wider so the prey can move around more naturally rather than spending most of their time trying to climb the slippy walls and my frog can sit on the bowl bottom with plenty of room left for the insects to crawl around him, then he can ambush them. I moved the floating egg crate lid, the small plastic plant to hold it in place, his hiding mug, and the vine he's come to love into he new setup. I have also added one of ExoTerra's small plastic suction cup plants in the one corner with it hanging down into the water. After this new roomier setup with more cover and a larger food dish I don't know what else to try to get him to eat. As soon as my wax moth emerges from it's pupa form I'll pop that in his cage to try flying food. I put beetles in his food bowl today when I setup his new cage as apparently anything shorter than a party sized plastic barrel of cheese balls is short enough for my crickets to hop out of (still have 2 loose in my room).

 

[dhct301]

Get one of those tetra whisper internal power filters. There like 10 dollars and they create nice waterfall effect. I use them in my box turtle water areas. They work amazing. The water will stay clear . Debris will sink to bottom but I clean filter once a week just rinse off and replace new cartridge ever few months. I clean the water area 1 time a month. I use a 11 inch paint tray and fill the bottom with large stones.

 

[Night10gail]

I finally confirmed my frog eating his first voluntary meal! He's had a round of crickets go missing before that and he had a poop but this time I actually got to see him hunting the cricket with his wiggling fingers lure. So larger cage + flooded cage floor+ current + less ventilation + loose crickets in the cage has gotten him to start eating and croaking. To quote Jurassic Park, I guess he "doesn't want to be fed he wants to hunt." Hopefully he won't go back into a food strike rut and will gain all his weight back. Gonna attempt to feed him some waxies or red wrigglers next month to beef him back up.

 

[AKFROG]

How is your moss frog doing?