Help in Identification

[Jeff Woods]

this guy just hatched a few weeks ago from a baldy breeding. He has never had the dark cloration of the other babies but his orange is really heavy.

Any help woulp be appreciated

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

Jeff, it may turn out to be a tang baldy, but at only a couple weeks old only time will tell really. Maybe others that have had bably hatchlings can tell you more from how theirs cahnged with time.

 

[Blazin]

Nice looking orange. Looks like you had some temp fluctuations as well. Those eyelid deformities are pretty pronounce.

 

[Jeff Woods]

It was strange, his hatchmates looked fine.....

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

Chad, I never even looked at the eyes, but they do look very bad.

Jeff, what temp did you incubate at and did you have bad fluc's in temps, the 2nd leo also looks like there is a little something at the top of the eyelid not being formed right.

 

[Jeff Woods]

room temp went 83-85 no big fluctuations. The second pic is actually just color, his eyes are round and fine.

 

[Jeff Woods]

I will say though, these guys hatched out very early

 

[Blazin]

Actually the second pic does look like it also has some slight irregularities. There can be considerable temp fluct in a room inside a house. I'd consider getting a hovabator or make your own. Looks like those animals have some nice bloodlines running in them.

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

its not the eye's its the eyelids and it could be the pic on the second one but it looks like there is a crease on one eyelid at the center that shouldn't be there and the other looks very "narrow"

How long did it take them to hatch?

And Id really really go with Chad's suggestions and get an incubator and a thermostat, it will save you from having incubator deformities and be so worth it long term. You can even build a decent incubator fairly inexpensively, let us know if you need any help with that, there are a lot of people where who have built them.

 

[Jeff Woods]

Thanks for the help guys. I have a couple Hovas that I htach chicks with. I just didn't think I needed them.

I have a digitherm that records peaks and lows. The temps varied between 83.4 and 86.4 for the duration, but never more than two degrees per day.

If I remember they hatched @ 26 days.

 

[nydrgnldy]

Well I have my very firts egg incubating at 84 and its up to day 46 so I would say yours hatched out very very early.
Robin

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

26 days is fast, at 90 I had 2 males hatch at 31 and 33 and I thought that was too fast but they are both thriving and getting fat.

Id hook up one of the hova's for sure but with room temps changing even 2 degress you still need a thermostat because the wafer the hova bator has will still allow temps to go up and down with room temps.

 

[progeckos]

I agree with the eyelids that they don’t look good. Leopard eggs can’t have any temp fluctuations, even a few degrees because deformities pop up. I’d take the suggestions from the other posts for fixing it.

As far as the color it’s really hard to tell right now. Once they are about 5 months old you’ll know the adult coloration. Right now though it might turn into a hypo tang.

 

[Herpcam]

26 days is fast, at 90 I had 2 males hatch at 31 and 33 and I thought that was too fast but they are both thriving and getting fat.

Id hook up one of the hova's for sure but with room temps changing even 2 degress you still need a thermostat because the wafer the hova bator has will still allow temps to go up and down with room temps.

{Disclaimer: My Opinion, not an attack at anyone}You know what, I'm going to have to disagree on a couple things about this thread and common (mis)perceptions lately on the forum. First off, all hovabators aren't bad. I've had both a Hova (I use now) and a Little Giant (same difference), and never had many huge spikes or dips, and this has been on two continents, including three different States here in the US. We're not really the type to keep our house at a constant temperature either. I'm not saying it never fluctuated, but I never had a serious problem with deformities. I can count the number of deformities we've had on one hand, and still have some fingers left over. Maybe its different if you let your house get super hot or super cold or let the eggs sit in the sun or something.

I really think there's something else going on in the community that's causing these problems. People aren't removing bad genes from the gene pool, and people are getting greedy (mixed with some ignorance, I'm sure) and not outcrossing their stock. We've got too many specialty morphs readily available and too many people trying to make a quick buck to continue to have diversity in the gene pool. I wrote this the other day - stay away from people who are advertising 100% XYZ line geckos. Go for some genetic diversity. Get your male from one reputable breeder and female(s) from another, or at least trust the person you're getting them from that they're providing you an unrelated pair. It sucks because you have to pay shipping twice, but it will save some heartache (for all of us) in the long run.

Two degrees is no big deal with leopard gecko eggs. We're not dealing with Chondros here. These little guys lay their eggs in a hole in the ground. Do you think they have proportional thermostats hooked up in the wild in Afghanistan and Pakistan? It's natural for temperatures to fluctuate a little bit, and not detrimental to the animals. Now, the 'Tremper' incubation method is not what I mean by fluctuate a little bit, that's extreme, and may not really be happening in nature. Besides, a super bright orange leopard gecko probably wouldn't survive long in the wild. Before I incubated eggs in the hovabator, I used a desk lamp angled over the egg container, and they all hatched (the ones that were fertile), and none were deformed. I've hatched fattail geckos sitting on top of a water heater in a closet under the stairs...again no deformities (just one bad attitude, but that's not from my incubation method, he was just possessed), and I doubt it stayed at a constant temp for the ~55 or so days it took.

Something is wrong with 26 days, too. Either the temps were incorrect (check your thermometer), or maybe a couple weeks were misplaced somewhere. I try to mark all my egg containers and incubating at 82-84F, I'm pretty consistent everywhere we've lived at around 52 days. (my most recent hatched at 53). I'd believe it if they had serious structural deformities, but these guys are pretty well developed. I can't believe they got that far along at those temps.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

In an email, I asked my Veterinarian about some of the similar problems I have been experiencing this season. He is strictly a herp vet, has worked with Dr. Frederic L. Frye as a consultant, is on the board of the A.R.A.V., and is a consulting vet for the Oakland Zoo's exotics department... as well as a herp nutritionist. Keeping in mind that I do NOT inbreed, here is what he had to say:

-----

Hello Dr. Harkewicz,

As a vet and reptile nutritionist, perhaps you can help me. This season has been plagued with birth defects in my hatchlings, and I am at a complete loss trying to understand why. I have had to euthanize 5 offspring for severe deformities, have had another 6 with non-fatal defects, and have lost another 20 or so eggs that went to term but did not hatch. The deformities seem to be either eye/eyelid defects with some having no eyelids at all, or a limb that did not develop completely. There is no pattern to it... completely random, and cannot be isolated to any single parent(s) or incubator.

The only thing I have done differently this year is increase the ratio of feeding mealworms over crickets, and added Vionate to my dry feeder gut-load in addition to my supplement regime of Miner-All w/VitD and weekly Rep-Cal Herptivite dusted crickets.

Is it possible that I am over supplementing my breeders? What kind of symptoms and/or effects would I expect to see if they were suffering from hypervitaminosis A or D?

Warmest regards,
Marcia McGuiness
www.goldengategeckos.com
925-755-3113

----

Hi Marcia,
The defects you mention are usually secondary to incubation changes or fluctuations, or are due to genetic defects (i.e. inbreeding). I doubt the food had any play in causing these mutations, nor the supplementation.

Ken Harkewicz, DMV

 

[Herpcam]

Hi Marcia,
The defects you mention are usually secondary to incubation changes or fluctuations, or are due to genetic defects (i.e. inbreeding). I doubt the food had any play in causing these mutations, nor the supplementation.

Ken Harkewicz, DMV

Hey Marcia, Thanks for posting this. With that answer from Dr. Harkewicz, what do you think it is? How are you incubating? Are your temps and methods that different from years past, or do you think it could be something with the strength (or weakness) of the gene pool?

What would Dr. Harkewicz classify as a change or fluctuation that would be serious enough to cause these deformities?

 

[Jeff Woods]

This is my frst year in really breeding geckos, needless to say , I have a variety of stock. I have 3 sisters and the rest are from different people. I have owned for 5 years now. I also raste painted mantellas, leucomelas, pygmy mice, and chickens, sooo I think my record keeping and understanding of gestation and incubation are pretty tight.

I date every container at aetup and check for eggs at least every other if not every day. I have a friend that owns a shop and breeds quite a few a year. I folowed his instructions on moisture and temp. to a T.


Thanks again to all who have replied

 

[Herpcam]

This is my frst year in really breeding geckos, needless to say , I have a variety of stock. I have 3 sisters and the rest are from different people. I have owned for 5 years now. I also raste painted mantellas, leucomelas, pygmy mice, and chickens, sooo I think my record keeping and understanding of gestation and incubation are pretty tight.

I date every container at aetup and check for eggs at least every other if not every day. I have a friend that owns a shop and breeds quite a few a year. I folowed his instructions on moisture and temp. to a T.


Thanks again to all who have replied

That's great you got your leos from different people. I have bought from the same people in the past, but I won't recommend it any more, unless I make sure they're reputable and you can trust them and ask for unrelated pairs.

Looks like your dates are good. Have you double checked your temps? Seems like they'd be a little warmer than what you posted, but I guess anything is possible. I guess I shouldn't think that nature would act the same way every time.

As for the eyelids, it seems to be a pretty widespread thing the past year...what about the feeders? I wonder if there is a connection anywhere with them? I think a few of the name brand feeder 'breeders' get their insects from the same sources. I mean, I think even if you got yours from ABC Worms, and I got mine from XYZ Worms, they're actually all grown out here in beautiful Compton, CA by Rainbow Mealworms...or another large producer. If one of these companies started screwing around with hormones or chemicals in their mealies or crickets, it could affect quite a few herps, ya know?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

With that answer from Dr. Harkewicz, what do you think it is?

I wish I knew...

How are you incubating? Are your temps and methods that different from years past, or do you think it could be something with the strength (or weakness) of the gene pool?

My incubation temps and methods are the same as they have always been, so it makes me wonder about a 'shallow' gene pool.

What would Dr. Harkewicz classify as a change or fluctuation that would be serious enough to cause these deformities?

According to Dr. Harkewicz, gradual temperature fluctuations within the 'safe' range (78*- 92*) are normal in the wild; i.e. night drops. It is the severe spikes and drops that are the culprit.

I was also told that eyelid defects are the most common congenital defects for Eublepharids, for the simple fact that they have eyelids.

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

Thanks for the info Marcia, that is great information!

Rob, I don't have any problems with my 2 hova bators either but some too and a thermostat will help when temps are going up and down too much too fast.