So, in layman's terms you are stating that it's not inheritable, right?
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Het for IMG?
- Thread starter Cat_72
- Start date
So, in layman's terms you are stating that it's not inheritable, right?
hgrub
New member
DJSlurp1200 said:
This thing just happened to my '05 female spider last Sunday. I freaked out of course lol I bought her more than a year ago as a normal female Spider. And last Sunday she decided to shange her look. I'll post picture of her before and after. So I guess she'll turn "dirty" once her color finally comes back.
before
after one shedding
And here's her latest pic. She locked with my male pastel again.
Cat_72
Back from exile :)
The pics aren't loading very well for me, but from what I can see, that's really beautiful! If only they would stay that incredible white color...
It will be interesting to see what she produces for you!
It will be interesting to see what she produces for you!
SPJ
Well-known member
hhmoore said:Looks like I was right last summer, Steve...we're going to be holding onto a bunch of BPs. I think I might recruit Alicia
That's what I was afraid of. Oh well. More critters. LOL.
Mooing Tricycle
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hhmoore said:Looks like I was right last summer, Steve...we're going to be holding onto a bunch of BPs. I think I might recruit Alicia
im IN on that one!! Not one dang problem about it! lol
bcherps
New member
To HHmoore: Yes that is one of the types of IMG's we have seen. We see many babies that we think have the trait, then end up doing that instead of the bleach and black. These that slowly grey in the scales in my experience have never gotten really dark.
To the boidsmith:
Ontogenic means age onset-this trait takes at least 16-18 months and 500-600 grams before it starts to show in all of the examples we have now.
Why do some turn a little dirty like what hhmoore has pics of, or why do some turn 95% black, why do some bleach first, and some just do a slow burn. The reason for these are unknown. But it is 100% genetic, but it not currently produced with calculatable inheritance. Bill Albright was the first other person I ran into that had held onto anything for 2 gens after the initial discovery. When we chatted with each other we both discovered that our animals went throught the same steps at the same time. This cannot simply be coincidental.
I know of over 100 of these animals, in almost a dozen peoples collections I have seen them in normals brought in from Noah's farm, Patrice's farm, in cbb normals, the spider that was just shown, a couple of pastels, and a yellowbelly. I know of someone holding back about 75 babies from img X img, and img x normal from 06 hatch. A few have changed, and several look like they might. We are still collecting data and it is screwy.
I believe that this will be somewhere along the lines of granite, where some lines prove, other lines don't, and to be safe the propective buyer is going to have to buy a small adult that has bleached, or is toasting up.
Conditional alleles explain why some lines would prove and some wouldn't. They function in many ways but a super simplified example is here:
A conditional allele is an allele that codes for a certian protien/process/mechanism. Beside it sits another set of dna that codes for something else that may or not be a related mechanism. When they are passed from the parent to the offspring together everything works right, but if the chromosome happens to split the dna chain between them, they loose thier funtion.
Or, you could have a situation where a set of dna that covers a certain genotype that leads to a visable phenotype is 750 base pairs long in its chain. DNA splits and gets one copy form mom and one copy from dad to make a single whole offspring. Say it splits this particular dna chain in half but moms side isn;t exactly alike it may or may not change the function of that dna chain. Many times a point mutation (one single base pair mutation) leads to nothing. However if you change a bunch of the base pairs it can alter how that mechansim/protien that was given rise to by that dna chain is produced/ or funtions. It may totally wipe it out.
Actual bench top lab work will need to be done to figure this out, but cost, lack of interest from the science field, and the fact that I would need to put down a bunch of animals/eggs to get samples throughout life limit how much will acutally be done.
Gotta run for now, but let me know if you have any quesitons
To the boidsmith:
Ontogenic means age onset-this trait takes at least 16-18 months and 500-600 grams before it starts to show in all of the examples we have now.
Why do some turn a little dirty like what hhmoore has pics of, or why do some turn 95% black, why do some bleach first, and some just do a slow burn. The reason for these are unknown. But it is 100% genetic, but it not currently produced with calculatable inheritance. Bill Albright was the first other person I ran into that had held onto anything for 2 gens after the initial discovery. When we chatted with each other we both discovered that our animals went throught the same steps at the same time. This cannot simply be coincidental.
I know of over 100 of these animals, in almost a dozen peoples collections I have seen them in normals brought in from Noah's farm, Patrice's farm, in cbb normals, the spider that was just shown, a couple of pastels, and a yellowbelly. I know of someone holding back about 75 babies from img X img, and img x normal from 06 hatch. A few have changed, and several look like they might. We are still collecting data and it is screwy.
I believe that this will be somewhere along the lines of granite, where some lines prove, other lines don't, and to be safe the propective buyer is going to have to buy a small adult that has bleached, or is toasting up.
Conditional alleles explain why some lines would prove and some wouldn't. They function in many ways but a super simplified example is here:
A conditional allele is an allele that codes for a certian protien/process/mechanism. Beside it sits another set of dna that codes for something else that may or not be a related mechanism. When they are passed from the parent to the offspring together everything works right, but if the chromosome happens to split the dna chain between them, they loose thier funtion.
Or, you could have a situation where a set of dna that covers a certain genotype that leads to a visable phenotype is 750 base pairs long in its chain. DNA splits and gets one copy form mom and one copy from dad to make a single whole offspring. Say it splits this particular dna chain in half but moms side isn;t exactly alike it may or may not change the function of that dna chain. Many times a point mutation (one single base pair mutation) leads to nothing. However if you change a bunch of the base pairs it can alter how that mechansim/protien that was given rise to by that dna chain is produced/ or funtions. It may totally wipe it out.
Actual bench top lab work will need to be done to figure this out, but cost, lack of interest from the science field, and the fact that I would need to put down a bunch of animals/eggs to get samples throughout life limit how much will acutally be done.
Gotta run for now, but let me know if you have any quesitons
Mooing Tricycle
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really dang interesting.
Genetics certainly are very complex... this stuff youre saying now, just makes it even crazier but... its fun! Thanks for the Info!
Genetics certainly are very complex... this stuff youre saying now, just makes it even crazier
but... its fun! Thanks for the Info!
Ben,
Ontogenic is the development of an embryo in-uteri or during incubation "in-ova", as affected by external parameters. Temperature related color changes are examples of ontogenic changes that have nothing to do with inherited traits. When you state a trait is ontogenic it means it changes the phenotype (extrenal appearance) of the animal but it has nothing to do with the genotype (inheritance). That's why I understood from what you said that ir was a non-transmissible trait.
Best regards,
bcherps
New member
Hey,
Epigenetics is the changes to embryos in utero/ova that are governed by external factors not neccessarily underlying genotypes. i.e sex determination by egg temps in crocadilians and turtles, yellowing in leopard geckos by egg temp, etc etc. I work with lots of chemical induced epigenetic factors in utero in the lab I work for.
Ontogenic is age onset and age doesn't have to be only embryonic. A great example on ontogenic genes/phenotypes that are not embronically onset is: baldness. Look at male pattern baldness in people. It is a well known sex linked characteristic. It is genetic, and is inherited from your grandfather through your mother.
If you get the gene to go bald, you will go bald, but not when your 12, or 20, but normally in your middle thirties or later. However, in our life, since we can micromanage every aspect. We have the ability to add chemicals/compounds to our diet to help fight it, but the genotype is still there, and the phenotype is still there after we remove the excess compounds.
You are correct in that genotypes and phenotypes don't always line up, and artifical looks can be manufactured but in the case of IMG's to many people doing too many different things have popped them out, and now that it has been down in the p-1, f-1, and f-2 generations by two different people it is hard to if not impossible to say it is not genetic.
Thanks
ben
Epigenetics is the changes to embryos in utero/ova that are governed by external factors not neccessarily underlying genotypes. i.e sex determination by egg temps in crocadilians and turtles, yellowing in leopard geckos by egg temp, etc etc. I work with lots of chemical induced epigenetic factors in utero in the lab I work for.
Ontogenic is age onset and age doesn't have to be only embryonic. A great example on ontogenic genes/phenotypes that are not embronically onset is: baldness. Look at male pattern baldness in people. It is a well known sex linked characteristic. It is genetic, and is inherited from your grandfather through your mother.
If you get the gene to go bald, you will go bald, but not when your 12, or 20, but normally in your middle thirties or later. However, in our life, since we can micromanage every aspect. We have the ability to add chemicals/compounds to our diet to help fight it, but the genotype is still there, and the phenotype is still there after we remove the excess compounds.
You are correct in that genotypes and phenotypes don't always line up, and artifical looks can be manufactured but in the case of IMG's to many people doing too many different things have popped them out, and now that it has been down in the p-1, f-1, and f-2 generations by two different people it is hard to if not impossible to say it is not genetic.
Thanks
ben
Mooing Tricycle
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If this helps
Ontogenic
http://www.drseward.com/definition.htm
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ontogeny
Ontogenic
http://www.drseward.com/definition.htm
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ontogeny
kmurphy
New member
bcherps
New member
One thing as we are getting slightly away from the title. In my experience I have not seen/or been able to tell "het" IMG's. And since this is definately not a simple recessive I don't know that, that type of labeling would be fair or ethical at this time.
Again I would have confidence in buying bleached animals, slightly less in unbleached but greying animals, and probably would skip buying small and normal looking animals. I would definately at this time skip buying 600 gram plus and older animals that still appear normal from an IMG parent(s).
Thanks for the backup/definitions
Thanks
ben
Again I would have confidence in buying bleached animals, slightly less in unbleached but greying animals, and probably would skip buying small and normal looking animals. I would definately at this time skip buying 600 gram plus and older animals that still appear normal from an IMG parent(s).
Thanks for the backup/definitions
Thanks
ben
Cat_72
Back from exile :)
I don't think it has gone off topic at all, the genetics of the IMG was "technically" what I was inquiring about.
Thank you for all of the great information, it has turned out to be a truly informative thread!
Thank you for all of the great information, it has turned out to be a truly informative thread!
Cat_72
Back from exile :)
One more question for you, Ben...do you know of the IMG being purposely bred into any other morphs, other than the spider/pastel pairing pictured earlier?
I would think that would just complicate the task of figuring out the gene further, but wondered if it had been done at all.
I would think that would just complicate the task of figuring out the gene further, but wondered if it had been done at all.
bcherps
New member
Hey all,
From what I have known two guys did breed the IMG's to morphs but when they saw non-blackened animals they claimed IMG wasn't inheritable and got rid of the offspring with the rest of thier for sale stock. When a few holdback animals (for the other mutation) turned once the animal was larger they decided to play around with the mutation and have now made other examples.
However, these are with cheaper morphs. With the depreciation we are seeing with new morphs, it would be a gamble to hold back certain animals and then take the hit on the ones that didn't change.
Thanks
ben
From what I have known two guys did breed the IMG's to morphs but when they saw non-blackened animals they claimed IMG wasn't inheritable and got rid of the offspring with the rest of thier for sale stock. When a few holdback animals (for the other mutation) turned once the animal was larger they decided to play around with the mutation and have now made other examples.
However, these are with cheaper morphs. With the depreciation we are seeing with new morphs, it would be a gamble to hold back certain animals and then take the hit on the ones that didn't change.
Thanks
ben