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Heterozygous traits, how much would you pay for 100% reassurance?

How much would you pay for this service?

  • $75

    Votes: 10 13.0%

  • $100

    Votes: 23 29.9%

  • $125

    Votes: 5 6.5%

  • $150

    Votes: 23 29.9%

  • I'd rather take my chances.

    Votes: 16 20.8%
  • Total voters
    77
The BoidSmith said:
Lucille,

Regrettably I was asked not to disclose any more information at this point. But I can say one thing though, Marjee had an excellent idea...;)

Regards.
Click to expand...

I do hope that if this project involves lab testing, that whoever is in charge of the company will make sure that the testing is high quality and does not involve error rates that plague some of the companies doing tests in people.
Great idea. If they sell stock, let me know... :hehe:
 
Again, IF this idea works out it will be done with a company with an established name in the market and whose results are accepted in a court of law. But there's nothing we can do with 19 votes at this point. There's no doubt about it that there will be people who will not want this to happen as their days of selling animals of dubious lineage could very well be over. Then of course there's always those that will not want to pay for the service and go the "inexpensive" route. That one which has provided time and again to be the most costly one!

Regards
 
I see what you're saying now, at least I think I do. You're not asking about insurance at all, you're asking what we'd be willing to pay for genetic testing to determine if in fact a gene was present. You should have just said that in the first place.
I can see how that would be a useful service. I'd consider using it as a breeder myself. Say I breed my het whatevers and want to know which female 66% hets to hold back. No breeding trials and wasted time.

I can also see how it will seriously impact the herp market. At that point someone can actually buy one male het snake and have a straight path to produce the morph with no hold ups from dealing with 50% hets.
That's not even considering the double and triple recessives that we're just starting to look at. Everything would be put on the fast track, new morph production as well as the decline of prices.
 
"Insurance", or some kind of guarantee that can be purchased so that if hets don't prove out, there is some compensation or easily available recourse. In a perfect world maybe, but from a legal and business standpoint, impractical as heck and unfortunately fraught wth the same problems a buyer now faces. The big breeders with a proven track record don't need it, and who is going to underwrite the smaller, under-capitalized breeders? I'm with Clay and Cathy and Sammy on this one.
 
Chameleon Company said:
"Insurance", or some kind of guarantee that can be purchased so that if hets don't prove out, there is some compensation or easily available recourse.
Click to expand...

The way the conversation is going though, it is not insurance at all, it is better: it sounds like it's to be an idea to test the genetics of the animal so you KNOW when you are buying it, what you have. That's an astoundingly good idea. And it will change a lot in the herp world.
What an exciting idea, and to think we heard it first, right here on Fauna!!!
 
So what would I get for my 150 if the animal doesn’t produce? My original amount paid?
Click to expand...

You have a proof that will be admisible in court. What this will do is have the bad guys think not twice but three times before even attempting to scam. In fact, except for those that are unwilling to pay the price, for the rest the "possible" animals will disappear. They will be either normal or 100% hetero, and we are closer to this than one might think! Waiting years to make your name in the herp world would also be over. It won't matter if you breed 10 or 1,000 animals or if your name is Mr. Bigsnake. Keep on voting, we need a critical mass! There is now enough topic for discussion.

Regards.
 
To help a few of us thick-headed ones

(Me and anyone else who wants to make a claim), are we talking about identifying a genetic marker for a recessive trait, and then being able to test a purchased animal for that trait? If do-able (it is possible that the research necessary to identify that genetic marker could be cost-prohibitive), and affordable for the buyer, it would be a wonderful option. That would be more in line with the "reassurance" that Dan mentioned early on. The phrase "kind of insurance" was also used, and I think that is what led me and others to view it as impractical, if it was similar to insurance models we all are familiar with. Not to be the party-pooper here, but the value of all the ball morphs, and het-balls, will continue to trend downward, and so will all things that flow from that value. But if an genetic test "assurance" could be done affordably, it would be a wonderful option, and I agree with you Dan and Lucille wholeheartedly on that point. It might not get money back from a scammer, but would at least save time (and money) for the new buyer-breeder. I only wish chameleons were as easy as ball pythons.
 
The more I read the more confused I get about exactly what it is you are proposing Dan.

Are we talking genetic testing?

Are we talking compiling evidence AFTER the sale to use in court to sue someone who lied about a het?

My head hurts...
 
I can see where breeders could use this to sort possible hets.

As a buyer I would still rather just buy hets from trusted sources. Problem solved.

It is doing little good after I buy when I have to pay a lawyer, travel to another state, and go through a bunch of court proceedings and eat up my personal time. Especially if the seller is a fake name that I cant sue anyway. So I really dont see how this is "insurance" at all.
 
I'm kind of lost here as well. Insurance is one thing....genetic proof is something totally different. When you say "insurance", I'm thinking you mean a slip of paper that you pay for saying that the animal is guaranteed to be a het.....which I don't think would be any more helpful than most folks' currently used guarantee paperwork.

If you mean the assurance of a genetic test PROVING beyond a shadow of a doubt the animal carries a certain gene, that's a whole different ball game entirely.
 
Another thought here......you are asking us to put a dollar amount on what we would be willing to pay.....but I think it would really depend on what kind gene we were talking. I would be willing to pay a higher dollar amount to prove that an animal was het for a more expensive morph....it's hard to say an exact figure.
 
If you are talking about genetic testing, it is an interesting (but not new) idea. It is costly from what I have heard from others who have looked into it for geckos, and I see it only being beneficial to breeders in testing the possible hets to determine if they are gene carriers or not (hets or normals).

I only buy het animals from people I know and trust that produced the animals themselves, so if you are talking about some type of insurance, I wouldn't really need that.
 
The problem is you are asking what a service would be worth to us but you are being sufficiently vague that we have no idea what exactly the service is. Everybody's reply to the thread contains the term "if you're talking about"

WHat genetic testing would boil down to in the end iis buyers would come to expect the seller to have it done and that would open up the possibility of a seller having an actual het tested then selling normals with copies of the het's results.
I can see a real use for it within a breeders collection, like I said before, to expidite the breeding process by eliminating possible hets and telling the breeder which females to hold back etc.
This would, most certainly, speed the production rates in recessive morphs and result in even faster price decline however. The efforts of breeder males would not be wasted trying to determine the genetics of his 3 year old daughters.

From a buyers perspective, it basically after the fact information. Sure it's admissible evidence, but you still have to hire a lawyer, go to court, like Sammy said.
If the seller is providing the testing before the sale you still have to worry about fraud.
It would be a nice thing to have available, but it wouldn't make me comfortable enough to buy from someone I wouldn' tbuy from today. Buy from a breeder you trust to begin with and avoid the whole issue.

Unless adressed directly, I will refrain from posting further to this thread until something resembling details of what is being suggested are provided.
 
It is doing little good after I buy when I have to pay a lawyer, travel to another state, and go through a bunch of court proceedings and eat up my personal time. Especially if the seller is a fake name that I cant sue anyway. So I really dont see how this is "insurance" at all.
Click to expand...

My question is, do we have a better protection right now?

Regards.
 
The BoidSmith said:
My question is, do we have a better protection right now?

Regards.
Click to expand...

If you are talking about genetic testing, no.

If your talking about insurance, maybe yes. Many jurisdictions have consumer's statutes; the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Act allows for up to 3 times the damages as compensation, plus the losing side has to pay attorney's costs.

So under the consumer statute here in Texas, and more and more popular statutes elsewhere, you would get:
Attorney's fees paid by the scammer
Time value of several years wasted
Difference between the value of the fake het and a real het
and the second and third items can be tripled for you so we are talking about substantial money.

Of course there would have to be proof, but we are not talking about beyond a reasonable doubt, we are talking the more relaxed civil burden of preponderance.

I actually like this statute in Texas because it means I will be able to help even small purchasers who get scammed, and have the scammer pony up my fee. That's sweet.
 
Lucille,
I can't disagree with the provisions of the law, but think a certain dose of added detail is in order.
On just the headache side of things, Sammy pointed out some of the "costs" to the complainant bringing the suit.
In many cases, we would be talking a het valued at $1500 or less. Small claims would likely not hear the case, and would only be valid on assets in the state where the case was brought if it did. I say "not hear it", for as soon as the judge realized there were many instances of one word against another ( I bred this to it .... where's your proof that you bred that?) and genetic probabilities, he's not going to rule. So, to bring the suit to full court, with base damages of $1500-3000 or so, the complainant would have to commit $10-15Gs. If he defendent can't afford to fight it, then he can't pay up if you win. If he/she can afford to fight it, then the liability could go over $20-30K, as he may countersue. Surely, a few letters could be written for under $1000, but to get all the damages and fees, its only remedied in a full court. The burden of proof would still be quite high, even with a civil jury, as its still one word against another for the most part. And what is at stake? The complainant may be seeking a net award of under $5000, but have to put up 2-3 times that amount easily with no guaranteee of recovery. On top of it all, you are going after a "scammer", and you can't get the proverbial "blood out of a turnip". Bottom line, IMHO, it just ain't gonna happen.
 
The BoidSmith said:
My question is, do we have a better protection right now?

Regards.
Click to expand...

Dan, in my mind, yes. You buy from reputable people to begin with.


Lucille,

That is great what they are doing in Texas, but that still dont mean you can get blood from a turnip. If the person in question is broke or hiding their money then you still dont see a dime. Sadly that happens all the time in civil cases. You cant take from people what they dont have.
 
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