Heterozygous traits, how much would you pay for 100% reassurance?

[Lucille]

Lucille,

That is great what they are doing in Texas, but that still dont mean you can get blood from a turnip. If the person in question is broke or hiding their money then you still dont see a dime. Sadly that happens all the time in civil cases. You cant take from people what they dont have.

Sammy

Do me a favor and put this conversation somewhere, where you won't forget it. I will never forget Fauna, and the people here, and what they have done for me.
Someday, I'll take a picture of my study, and you'll see the hides of Texas scammers nailed to the wall by the new Texas Hammer.....
I promise you, the turnip will bleed.......

 

[The BoidSmith]

The problem is you are asking what a service would be worth to us but you are being sufficiently vague that we have no idea what exactly the service is.

Clay,

You are right, and I shouldn't have opened my mouth in the first place. But when you are asked "do you think there's a need for something like this", and at the same time "please don't disclose details", you are put between a rock and a hard place. So far I had "other" expectations as far as the type of replies. These are more than likely from what you are very well pointing out, not enough information. Forgive me for a while, OK?

Regards

 

[shrap]

Someday, I'll take a picture of my study, and you'll see the hides of Texas scammers nailed to the wall by the new Texas Hammer.....

Is it legal to do that down there?

 

[Lucille]

Is it legal to do that down there?

Shhhhh, no honey but we're just tryin' to scare 'em. Same with the tarrin' and featherin'

But it IS legal to charge $30,000 for a case and send the bill to them after I win a DTPA case, and have a judgment so their future earnings are mine.......
mmmmm, turnip blood......

 

[Chameleon Company]

But it IS legal to charge $30,000 for a case and send the bill to them after I win a DTPA case, and have a judgment so their future earnings are mine.......

But you will have fronted and risked the $30K, and be waiting to recover via garnishment from a scammer. If and when it happens, it will be fun to read about here. But until then, I would recommend a "Plan B" to all buyers of hets.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Jim

Yes, "plan B" as in Lee Marvin's "Ballinger"; yes, I'm that old...

 

[Chameleon Company]

Well, you only got me by a year, and I loved Lee Marvin, but I can't recall his "Plan B". I doubt it was nice?

 

[chondrogal]

I would probably not pay for any sort of insurance program. I would do as others suggest, know my breeder and buy only from reputable sources.

As a breeder of high end morphs involving possible hets, I like the idea very much about having genetic testing available. In my species, perhaps others, it would be difficult to issue a certificate with a picture verification as the babys change completely in appearance as they grow up. Some of them continue to change for many years.

As a holder of several possible hets though, I would gladly pay a lab fee to determine which of my snakes were hets... and for that matter, sexing would be a very nice thing to determine in babies too. Mis-sexing can happen to anyone accidentally.

 

[The BoidSmith]

As a holder of several possible hets though, I would gladly pay a lab fee to determine which of my snakes were hets... and for that matter, sexing would be a very nice thing to determine in babies too. Mis-sexing can happen to anyone accidentally.

Cathy,

This is exactly what we are trying to do here. But unless we find an interest in the industry that justifies the involvement of a serious company it's not going to happen.

Regards.

 

[Chameleon Company]

This does not give the appearance of being a near-term solution, but maybe in time. Seems cost-prohibitive in the foreseeable future, but I would thoroughly enjoy being wrong there.

Straying a bit off-topic, I did some reading. Lee Marvin as "Ballinger". TV show which ran from '57-60 (you were about six, and I five, when it ended). Chicago detective, and Paul Newman was his captain boss (imagine a TV show with those two before their tremendous movie careers). 100 episodes filmed. Not likely to happen, but I would find tremendous comfort in sending a Lee Marvin-type after some scammer who was selling normals as hets ! Of course, we do have Lucille with her skinning and tanning aspirations in Texas !

 

[Cat_72]

Well, I don't know exactly what you're saying would be done, but I know in dogs, it's quite simple to get a DNA test to prove paternity, costs about $35 to get it done. If you're talking testing for the actual gene that makes the animal het for whatever trait...now that could take some doing.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Cathy and Others,
Since the issue of paternity has been raised as a possible avenue to explore, and you mention that it only costs $35 to do it in dogs, I have to assume that that form of paternal proof is not based on DNA identificaton. My belief is that a DNA analysis cannot be had for less than $600, but I am not very knowledgable there. And that would be just for a comparative DNA analysis, such as establishing kinship, not the identification of a specific gene or two, if we had any idea what we were looking for. If anyone has a little more solid info on some of the costs for different procedures and tests at this point in time, whether for dogs, humans, reptiles, etc, please share it if you have a moment. Thanks in advance.

 

[Cat_72]

Cathy and Others,
Since the issue of paternity has been raised as a possible avenue to explore, and you mention that it only costs $35 to do it in dogs, I have to assume that that form of paternal proof is not based on DNA identificaton. My belief is that a DNA analysis cannot be had for less than $600, but I am not very knowledgable there. And that would be just for a comparative DNA analysis, such as establishing kinship, not the identification of a specific gene or two, if we had any idea what we were looking for. If anyone has a little more solid info on some of the costs for different procedures and tests at this point in time, whether for dogs, humans, reptiles, etc, please share it if you have a moment. Thanks in advance.

Well, you take a swab from the inside of the male dogs' mouth, send it in, and the AKC has a "profile" made, and they charge you $35 (or right in that ballpark) to do it, and they call it DNA testing. Maybe I'm just dumb as a box of rocks, but that's what made me assume it was based on DNA identification.

 

[Cat_72]

Is this "solid" enough info?

http://www.akc.org/dna/index.cfm

DNA and the AKC
Making the Science Work for You

The AKC offers a comprehensive set of voluntary and mandatory programs to ensure the integrity of the AKC registry: voluntary DNA Profiling; the Frequently Used Sires requirement; the Fresh-Extended/Frozen Semen requirement; the Multiple-Sired Litter Registration Policy; and the Kennel Inspections/Compliance Audit Program. The AKC has built the world's largest database of canine DNA profiles for parentage verification and genetic identity purposes.

The Science Behind AKC DNA Profiles

AKC DNA Profiles are generated using the same technology used by law enforcement agencies throughout the world. How does this work? In humans and dogs alike, each gene is present as two copies (displayed as letters). Offspring receive one copy of each gene from each parent in a random process.

This technology does not use actual genes, but other DNA sequences that are also inherited one copy from each parent. For this reason, your dog's AKC DNA Profile does not provide any information about the conformation of the dog or the presence/absence of genetic diseases. Furthermore, AKC DNA Profiles cannot determine the breed of a dog.

Voluntary DNA Profile

This voluntary program has resulted from significant input from the fancy. The DNA Profile Program is for owners and breeders electing to add value to their breeding programs by eliminating concerns or questions about identification and parentage.

A dog owner may contact AKC for a DNA Test Kit which includes a swab that the owner uses to collect loose cells from inside the dog's cheek. An AKC DNA Profile containing the dog's registration information, genotype, and a unique DNA Profile number is issued for each dog sampled. This DNA Profile number will appear on subsequently issued Registration Certificates and Pedigrees.

DNA Requirements

AKC DNA Profiling is required for: Frequently Used Sires (dogs having the greatest impact on the AKC Stud Book); imported breeding stock; dogs whose semen is collected for fresh-extended or frozen use; and for the sires, dam and puppies for Multiple-Sired Litter Registration.

Kennel Inspections/Compliance Audit Program

AKC Representatives take DNA samples at randomly selected kennels to verify identification and parentage of litters. AKC litter registration and privileges will be withdrawn when the parentage of the litters is determined to be incorrect. The dogs sampled through the Compliance Audit Program are not considered AKC DNA Profiled, and DNA Profiles are not issued.

The AKC DNA Database and Parentage Verification

Comparison of the DNA profiles of a dam, sire, and pup(s) will determine, with greater than 99% confidence, whether the pups are from the tested dam and sire. The AKC DNA database examines the parentage of all AKC DNA Profiled registered dogs and litters whelped on or after January 1, 2000. When problems are discovered, the DNA staff works with breeders to determine correct parentage at the breeder's expense.

AKC Parentage Evaluation Service

For a fee, an AKC DNA Analyst will issue a Parentage Evaluation of a litter in the form of an easy to read table listing each dog's genotype and a written report.

Parentage Evaluation can be used to ensure accuracy when breeding has been done offsite, for cases of artificial insemination, or to add to extra measure of confidence to your pedigrees.

AKC Parentage Profile

For AKC registered dogs born on/after January 1, 2000, dog owners may purchase a handsome profile displaying the registration information and genotypes for the dog and its AKC registered sire and dam. All three dogs must be AKC DNA Profiled to purchase this profile.

 

[Lucille]

Wow Cathy, great piece of research. I had no idea the AKC did all that, and I can see where it would come in handy.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Cathy,
Thanks for hunting up the info. I guess it all comes down to degree of accuracy. While that test claims a 99% degree of accuracy, and would be acceptable to probably 99% of all, my confusion probably stems from the testing that takes it out to about a 99.9999% degree of accuracy, which is more than most would ever have need of except in certain legal situations where much more was at stake. Thanks !

 

[The BoidSmith]

Bingo Cathy!

Regards

 

[Cat_72]

 

[Serpwidgets]

I think that genetic testing would be handy, as long as it can determine the actual genotype at specific loci. The biggest value in that would be eliminating possible hets, which especially would greatly accelerate the production of new genetic combinations. Establishing paternity, etc, would not be very useful IMO.

This would still need to be done by the purchaser, since (as I think was mentioned) there's no way to guarantee that the seller didn't just send in a bunch of samples from one individual and say "these are from all these different animals."

The biggest hurdle would be the up-front expense of the original effort to map out the loci in question. And each time a new gene is discovered, this expense would need to be paid out by the business providing that service, in order to map out the new locus, or determine if it's an allele at a previously known locus. You would also likely need samples from a decent number of specimens of already-known genotypes in order to find those loci, too, so testing for a new gene might not be possible until there are already several of them in existence (and two generations have been produced) and the price has already dropped quite a bit.

As for cost, it really depends... I don't work with the high priced stuff, only cornsnakes. But I think I might be willing to pay $50-100 to determine the actual genotypes of certain cornsnakes.

 

[Cat_72]

If you, as a purchaser, can prove for $50 that the baby het you have purchased is indeed sired by a particular father, how would that not be helpful? It could mean the difference between a $25 normal snake and a $1000 het.

I think it would be particularly helpful for folks like me just getting a start in the world of high-dollar snakes, there seems to be so much apprehension about buying from "new, unheard of" breeders.....if I can offer genetic proof that my babies are indeed what I say they are, it will help me to GET established as one of those folks that people will buy hets from with confidence.