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Heterozygous traits, how much would you pay for 100% reassurance?

How much would you pay for this service?

  • $75

    Votes: 10 13.0%
  • $100

    Votes: 23 29.9%
  • $125

    Votes: 5 6.5%
  • $150

    Votes: 23 29.9%
  • I'd rather take my chances.

    Votes: 16 20.8%

  • Total voters
    77
I am also working out if sheds are viable instead of scale clips.

Ben, that was my initial thought. I agree with you that it might be easy to forge. The only way that I had though around it was that the seller should provide a sample of the shed of the sire and/or dam with the offspring he sells, and then the buyer could run a DNA sequence on the shed of the animal he received if he wants to confirm if it came from that animal. Again it all boils down to the credibility of the seller.

Regards.
 
Yeap, the seller could send you an different shed if you were testing for a secondary mutation het on a ghosts, ivories, lucies, background and would never know if the shed was the same animal, also the new owner is unlikely to pay a $100-150 fee, plus the pain in the butt of getting the same to and from the testing company. People aren't going to it for het albinos, or het ghosts, and if you are out there spending 10-20 grand on a morph you are usually getting it from a longtime breeder-not a reseller-which is unfortunately where the most scamming is.

Where I saw the biggest gain was I could offer services to big producers who then could make decisions on what animals to keep for grow outs and which ones not to bother with when making poss double hets and whatnot.

Thanks
ben cole
 
Even though the forgery mentioned is a definate probability, in a lot of ways it could be used for good still. Example would be "possible" hets. Being Het, DH, or TH all would sell for more money, it would eliminate the "possibilties" and give you the "knowns". Especially if planning a certain project. You simply keep the "known" mutant carriers. In the case of "possible" TH's, it would show exactly which mutant gene they are or aren't het for, and the animals could be priced accordingly, instead of trying to barter more on the gamble.

It could certainly reduce the time somewhat, on special gene combos, various people may be thinking of.

Still need to depend on the integrity of the seller no matter what, but the service could still be useful in other ways. To me it would be worth a $150 to know if this one or that one have the genes I hope they have.


Rick
 
Where I saw the biggest gain was I could offer services to big producers who then could make decisions on what animals to keep for grow outs and which ones not to bother with when making poss double hets and whatnot.

That's exactly right. Imagine a breeder being able to know if he is raising or not a 100% hetero. Investing $150 or even $500 in testing is pocket change compared with what he would save in time and money by not having to raise and prove out a "normal" for a couple of generations!

Regards
 
There is one arguement that a little guy put forth about it thought that I thought was kinda funny. Showed me he was thinking but not in a good way.

It seems that most of us would be very gung-ho about getting these testing procedures worked out for each morph but look at a clutch of clown poss het ghost balls you just produced. They are really pricey you get the test done and you figure out which ones to keep for yourself, but now the rest of your "poss hets' are proven to be just clowns. Still a good payday but you have knocked of several grand off each one that turned out to not be poss het. So instead of tellling the public you had them tested, you sell them as poss hets anyway to get the extra cash, the breeding was there to make poss hets, the parental lineage is there to produce hets, but you are skimming them before they hit the public.

This scenario and the scenario we talked to before about forging documents is just a drop in the bucket in scams around this. Also a breeder could sell true hets, then a scummy buyer, sends a clip in from a normal, gets a normal result and trashes the original seller or wants a refund when in fact he has the real het tucked away in the corner.

If there is a system someone will find a way around it. So to use this as a public selling point it would be difficult, for in house purposes it would be invaluable. Also it could help on the legal end of cases like TSE and his het scam. We have had to wait years and let people have mutliple clutches to proven TSE was selling crap. Well if we had this technology right now, I could test all TSE derived animals and hand the judge a portfolio of 200-300-400 proofs that he was selling fakes, instead of a 1/2 dozen in a clutch here and 9 in a clutch over there as we wait for them to be produced.

And as morphs get cheaper the price gets prohibitive to the public, and then will get so that it would be cheaper just to pay the extra 30 bucks from a true blue breeder who has been in the game for 20 years than getting that super buy from joe bloe flea market guy.

Anyone interested in my progress can keep in touch with me through my email [email protected].

Thanks
ben
 
Anyone interested in my progress can keep in touch with me through my email [email protected].

Ben,

I'm really interested. The more we "play around" with this, the closer we will be to a fool proof solution. Of course, and as you say, there are people who are not interested in such a test as it would ruin the "possible heterozygous market". But in my opinion this is what the future holds, unless of course something happens with the market, and the overall value of reptiles drops to what it used to be in the pre-mutant era.

Regards.
 
Well, many of the ball morphs have gone from 5k last fall, to 2500 after the 06 production, and are now 500-900 without the 07's out yet. So who knows what they will be. Also, we are looking for several dozen mutations on a couple of different genes anyhow. Things that seem similiar to our eyes may be vastly different on the genetic level and somethings that are very different may have common areas where the genome is not normal.

Pied, ringer, calico/sugar all may be the gene, same mutation with different amounts of code messed up. But something like albino and caramel albino may be completely different genes


Also some of the designers where the actual animals that produce them may have look alikes is going to be a problem. I.e granites. I have an enitre rack of granites that I got in 03, they are all different than the granites I see on the web and at every show. Then I hear people say that a granite has to have this and that, but this mark over hear doesn't matter if this one here is present-but in all actuality how many of them have produced ebonies, and how many people proffessing about granites have produced ebonies at home? It may turn out that what is responsible for combining with the yellow belly may be something completely different than what is causing in a granite ball having a granite pattern

We'll see, but usually science turns a few "commo knowledge ideals" upside down as new things are discovered.

thanks
ben
 
How about the question of sperm retention?
In ball pythons there have been a few reports along the lines of breeding a pastel male to normal female one year, then breeding her to a Mojave the next year and getting a few mojaves and a pastel in the clutch. Sperm retention seems to be a reality based on these anecdotal reports.
There was some speculation that a paternity-type test would be cheaper-easier than actually checking the genotype.
So, I bred several het piebald females to het males for the past few years… Hatched out some pieds and everything is moving along nicely. Now I’ve raised up a few male pieds for breeders. How can I absolutely, 100% guarantee that the normal-looking offspring from this breeding season will be 100% het? With the possibility of sperm retention, it would seem a bit of a risk to make such a guarantee.
Sure, if about half of the offspring are piebalds I will know my pied males did their job, but I won’t necessarily know that all the other hatchlings are 100% het. To me, the option of a paternity test would be of significant value. Please let us know if there is anything new to report on this topic.
Paul Fisher
 
Your questions/concerns are valid. A paternity is simpler, and has been currently available technology wise for a couple of years. I don't know any company offering it as a standard service though.

Quick and dirty answer-if you are breeding the females to a homozygous male(and the morph is well documented, proven to be viable, and has had no suprises elsewhere), then the paternity test is accurate

this post is very long winded and comes back to point at the end.

However, if you are dealing with a new morph, undocumented/low produced doubles-triples-or more, mutations with other effects to the body other than pattern or color. The only way to absolutely confirm is to breed it and produce living proof. The next statements are very very very broad as you could write several text books, college classes, and several Ph D. worthy projects out of what is really needed to prove the following or at least outline it correctly.

There are all sorts of other things at play into genetics, and embrionic development that are not cut and dry. So you could produce a het, that tests positive as being a het genotypically, but due to other factors(such as embryonic lethality, floxed genes, down regulation, sympathetic factors, secondary mutation) you never see a mutant/visual morph produced from it. We have a few lines of mice like this that the lab I am in works with. We have to bring the gene in through the male side or it is embryonically lethal. We also have other lines of mice that when we breed het to het, we only see the mutation if a second and different gene mutation is there that allows the first mutation to express.

Or (broad generalization here) in pied, you have a 90% and a 10% white-whats the difference? They are both the same genotype, however, one animals ability to produce normal coloration and pattern was severely reduced and the other wasn't. This could(broad speculations here) be due to how early in development that the cells/hormones/chemicals that derive normal color are blocked. Also some pieds the "normal" areas are normal, other pieds have "normal areas" coloration and pattern that are really aberrant. Is this(broad speculation) the area of epithelial tissue that was effected genetically and going to be white, but then surrounding epithelial cells had a sympathetic effect in embryonic development and tried to "fix" the area?

In embryology the parents genes are a starting point, and external factors can shift/effect what happens next until the point of birth. In animals that carry the babies full term things like diet and the toxins contained within, inhaled pollutants, depression-which effects hormones, micronutrients all can affect the outcome a baby. Well in reptiles that lay eggs we see all of the above but also then through in temperature, humidity of the eggs environment, co2/o2 saturation in the eggs environment can also shift the outcome of a baby.

Also in ball pythons, corns, and leopard geckos there is a lot of mutations that have names that are super similiar, and may be the same mutation but with a slightly varied set of background dna or modifier genes. So our human definitions/names may be causing us to unduly put things into wrong categories, or incorrectly relate some animals. Like pied and calico, both have something that causes scales to be white, it is organized in pied and dispersed in calico. It may be the same mechanism with a different secondary change , or it may be completely different mechanism that shows up as similiar phenotypes

Also random mutation can pop up at anytime that does who knows what, and isn't always visable/phenotypic so we can never rule that out. So you may have a cut and dry breeding that suddenly turns out new looking offspring, or suddenly blocks the mutation that has been passed down unchanged for 10 generations.
For example: I have a massive but young female boa that has this great big old head that reminds me of a bulldog. I breed her every year to a male albino that has very thin and refined features, but yet most of the babies come out with block heads. So I cannot say whether the animals will produce block headed babies 2 or 10 or 40 generations from now-only that I bet I get a bunch of block heads this year.(new co-dom right LOL) Although rattlesnake guys have well documented that a baby EBD head will grow proportionally to what you are feeding it. Lots of little meals equals a little head, infrequent large meals and you get a big head.

So just becuase you breed a pied to a normal does not Absolutely 100% guarantee that you will have het offspring that can in turn produce pieds. However, being a snake person, and a person of odds, I would be shocked if any of the above variables happened and you didn't produce 100% hets. Pieds have been bred enough and in enough species(people, horses, several species of birds, a couple species of snake, lots of rodents) that we are almost guaranteed that a pied x normal breeding will result in hets that can eventually produce pieds.

Back to the retained sperm issue. In my opinion a mixed litter is very rare on the whole. Yes, we have heard about it, we have also heard about parthenogenisis for a long time, and bicephalic snakes. I have seen multiple examples of both. However, between my own colony and 3 of my closests friends I see almost 600 clutches per year. But if you figure the number of clutches intentionally produced, accidentally produced, and gravid females that are imported and drop of all the species we see. The number of each of these aberrancies is very very small.

However, an easier, and probably less expensive way to go about it is to
stand behind your animals. Keep good records, know what you bred(don't get to the fall of 07 and go what did I breed this girl to last year), keep photos of your babies and sales record so in three years you don't get a reverse scam on you.

Sorry that there is about a million topics in here, I went to the coffee shop just before logging on.LOL

Thanks
ben cole
 
Thanks Ben, high octane coffee there but lots of interesting information! I enjoyed the read!
It may be worthwhile to kick the idea around with some horse & dog people about actually getting the test done with snakes. I imagine we would need a good baseline sample group to verify accuracy of a paternity test for snakes. That would cost some $ and may get back to Dan's original inquiry about what would it be worth to us. Interesting topic though...
BTW, I keep lots of pictures and documentation!
Paul
 
Many of the genes currently worked with show good conservation(similiar dna strands no matter the species, or very similiar in a group of species). However, color and patterning of the skin has not been looked at a lot becuase it is not a major problem in people that cuases early death or has been linked to other traits.

Say you found that a pied mouse of such and such line proved to also have a heart defect, and that the pied coloration could not be seperated away from the heart defect then you betcha there would be some funding.

Thanks
ben cole
 
Did this go any where? Are we closer to genetic testing? I know this is an old thread but it really interests me. It would be worth it to me to be able to tell if my "poss het" was or was not as I have very limited space and don't want to loose 2-4 years with an animal that is not what I think it is. So sorry to bring up an old thread but I was just wondering.
 
I have not done anything recently. I am not spending as much time in the lab as I used to and have been so busy outside of work I have not gone in after hours to do anything.


the simple deal is to buy from credible breeders with a track record of producing the animals you are looking for.


Thanks
ben
 
Before you can consider genetic testing.... research need to be done to map the genomes and identify all of these markers.... this would be more expensive than the human genome project....it will never be possible

there is only one way to avoid being ripped off.... Buy from people you trust 150 %.... I would never buy from a random person through an add.... because they wont have to answer for anything for 5 years


Also keep in mind that even 100 % hets can be bred together and still produce only normals...... if the odds go that way......

As far as 66% hets....... THat is the most retarted crap ever.... If you can't guarantee it, don't advertise it......
 
As far as 66% hets....... THat is the most retarted crap ever.... If you can't guarantee it, don't advertise it......

Well, I agree with most of your statement, but, retarded sounding or not, that's a legitimate term for offspring coming from two parents that are 100% het. Each offspring has that 66% chance of being 100% het.
 
"retarded"... has been very, very good to me...

All of my albinos originate from 50% possible hets I bought...
This year I hatched out 17 pieds from 66% possible het females that proved out for me. If an honest person is advertising possible het animals, I would question the intelligence of those who won't consider them...
Paul Fisher
Pied Peddler
 
Before you can consider genetic testing.... research need to be done to map the genomes and identify all of these markers.... this would be more expensive than the human genome project....it will never be possible

there is only one way to avoid being ripped off.... Buy from people you trust 150 %.... I would never buy from a random person through an add.... because they wont have to answer for anything for 5 years


Also keep in mind that even 100 % hets can be bred together and still produce only normals...... if the odds go that way......

As far as 66% hets....... THat is the most retarted crap ever.... If you can't guarantee it, don't advertise it......


WOW... to be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure where to start with this post...
How exactly do you figure that it would "be more expensive than the human genome project" to map the genome of a snake? You are aware that there have been quite a few MAJOR advancements in genetics research since the HGP was "completed" right? To say that it will "Never be Possible" to use genome mapping to determine whether a snake contains a gene or not is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I've heard in quite a long time. In reality it would be VERY possible to do such a thing. They can map an individual's (human) genome these days for around $5000 - $10000 per genome, and that cost just goes down yearly.
Yes there would have to be a great deal of research done, and MANY genomes would have to be mapped in order to compile an accurate database from which mutations could be compared and studied, but to say that it would cost more than the human genome project is an ABSURD over-exaggeration of cost.

As far as advertising 50% or 66% POS HET animals, that is the ONLY way to accurately describe animals produced from 100% HET x Normal or 100% HET x 100% HET parents respectively. There is no way to determine outside of breeding to determine whether the offspring are HET or not (at this point at least). But there is either a 50% or 66% chance that EVERY one of those babies are in fact HET for the given trait. The odds that a baby is normal from a clutch produced from breeding 2 100% HET animals together is only 33%, so although it is possible to get all "Normal" babies, it is not likely. HOWEVER, you cannot physically SEE if the babies are HET or not, therefor they are considered 66% POS HET.
Before you go on a forum calling things "retarded", perhaps a little BASIC research is in order?
 
WOW... to be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure where to start with this post...
How exactly do you figure that it would "be more expensive than the human genome project" to map the genome of a snake? You are aware that there have been quite a few MAJOR advancements in genetics research since the HGP was "completed" right? To say that it will "Never be Possible" to use genome mapping to determine whether a snake contains a gene or not is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I've heard in quite a long time. In reality it would be VERY possible to do such a thing. They can map an individual's (human) genome these days for around $5000 - $10000 per genome, and that cost just goes down yearly.
Yes there would have to be a great deal of research done, and MANY genomes would have to be mapped in order to compile an accurate database from which mutations could be compared and studied, but to say that it would cost more than the human genome project is an ABSURD over-exaggeration of cost.

As far as advertising 50% or 66% POS HET animals, that is the ONLY way to accurately describe animals produced from 100% HET x Normal or 100% HET x 100% HET parents respectively. There is no way to determine outside of breeding to determine whether the offspring are HET or not (at this point at least). But there is either a 50% or 66% chance that EVERY one of those babies are in fact HET for the given trait. The odds that a baby is normal from a clutch produced from breeding 2 100% HET animals together is only 33%, so although it is possible to get all "Normal" babies, it is not likely. HOWEVER, you cannot physically SEE if the babies are HET or not, therefor they are considered 66% POS HET.
Before you go on a forum calling things "retarded", perhaps a little BASIC research is in order?

I left you an IM. ReptileJay... because this sort of crap should be kept that way. Isn't there enough drama in the forums


I stand by my views
 
Well, I agree with most of your statement, but, retarded sounding or not, that's a legitimate term for offspring coming from two parents that are 100% het. Each offspring has that 66% chance of being 100% het.

Let me rephrase that....... To sell an animal for an exorbent price because it has a chance of being something......... thats retarded
 
WOW... to be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure where to start with this post...
How exactly do you figure that it would "be more expensive than the human genome project" to map the genome of a snake? You are aware that there have been quite a few MAJOR advancements in genetics research since the HGP was "completed" right? To say that it will "Never be Possible" to use genome mapping to determine whether a snake contains a gene or not is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I've heard in quite a long time. In reality it would be VERY possible to do such a thing. They can map an individual's (human) genome these days for around $5000 - $10000 per genome, and that cost just goes down yearly.
Yes there would have to be a great deal of research done, and MANY genomes would have to be mapped in order to compile an accurate database from which mutations could be compared and studied, but to say that it would cost more than the human genome project is an ABSURD over-exaggeration of cost.

As far as advertising 50% or 66% POS HET animals, that is the ONLY way to accurately describe animals produced from 100% HET x Normal or 100% HET x 100% HET parents respectively. There is no way to determine outside of breeding to determine whether the offspring are HET or not (at this point at least). But there is either a 50% or 66% chance that EVERY one of those babies are in fact HET for the given trait. The odds that a baby is normal from a clutch produced from breeding 2 100% HET animals together is only 33%, so although it is possible to get all "Normal" babies, it is not likely. HOWEVER, you cannot physically SEE if the babies are HET or not, therefor they are considered 66% POS HET.
Before you go on a forum calling things "retarded", perhaps a little BASIC research is in order?


Screw it.. I will explain myself..

1 more expensive than human genome mapping ---- why

you would have to map a huge sample size of each genus, species and subspecies to get some sort of reference standard for each species. humans are 1 species...and look how much work that took

after that you would have to sample individual animals within each species, subspecies etc to locate markers for traits(morphs etc)

you would have to keep this testing to date with the rapidly moving morph industry for any of this to actually have value for this purpose(which produces hundreds of new morphs each year)

you would have to find money to perform all of this testing to establish the basic gene maps..... which would probably cost millions or more..... and all that the expense before you can sell a service(say charging a person in the reptile industry to test their snake) which wouldn't be a little 20-30- dollar test. Simple genetic tests in a hospital laboratory say for Down's syndrome cost's 500-3000(according to Acadiana Reference Laboratories and depends on the sequencing method used)..... and that is on an established genome

WHY??? because we cant read the genes until we've figured out how they are arranged, what chromosomes are carrying what alleles.. etc... there has been some testing , mainly on the University level... but this information is not at all consolidated.......Permission would have to be given to use this research for such a purpose

GENETICS ARE MORE ADVANCED YES,,,,but you cant just take a sample....plug it into the snake morph database like they do in CSI... LOL

Analytical science and quantitative genetic analysis take vast research, huge sample sizes, and hours of tedious manual labor.......

OK so why would a genetic company take on this project???? there is certainly not much return...... there may be a few high end breeders that might benefit from this sort of service, but in most cases the test would cost more than the snake itself..

It's safe to say there are more pressing medical issues with a far better return I might add.....
 
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