Recently, I started to see more ads for het for albino females for under 500 bucks. So far, most of reputable(the big ones) are selling their females at 700-900. I am alittle worried about buying those low priced hets. Just wondering what are others' thought on this? I am not saying people selling cheap hets are rip offs/scams, only want to hear others' opinion. Lily Hom
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Hets
- Thread starter LilyH
- Start date
JamesBryan
bryanreptiles.tripod.com
Hi Lily,
Good point. I bought my hets from the "big names" just to be sure. Now as a medium sized breeder with little show prescence, I use the edge of a better price and 100% free shipping to sell my animals. Plus above the norm customer service.
I would need to see the parents and get a "written" guarantee of their genetic status sent before final payment(even stating poss. het in which case you want to buy the whole clutch so you don't waste years to find out if you have it) If you are only going to buy a couple poss. hets then you need to have the real deal lined up for their first breeding. Don't waste time.
Sincerely,
James and Vickie Bryan
Good point. I bought my hets from the "big names" just to be sure. Now as a medium sized breeder with little show prescence, I use the edge of a better price and 100% free shipping to sell my animals. Plus above the norm customer service.
I would need to see the parents and get a "written" guarantee of their genetic status sent before final payment(even stating poss. het in which case you want to buy the whole clutch so you don't waste years to find out if you have it) If you are only going to buy a couple poss. hets then you need to have the real deal lined up for their first breeding. Don't waste time.
Sincerely,
James and Vickie Bryan
Lily,
I assume you are talking about hetero for albino ball pythons, and yes prices have dropped significantly. You can buy 2002 babies 100% heteros for albinos from reputable breeders for $1,000 per pair. Again I'm not saying that those that sell females for less than $500 are not the real deal, but I wouldn't be at ease putting years of time and effort just to discover they were not. "Possible heteros" are a gamble, and I don't like them being overpriced.
In my opinion papers for "possibles" are worthless, and are just a disclaimer, unless you deal with reputable breeders. Then again most of the snakes sold "with papers" don't come with picture ID or microchiped. In words of a well known breeder when asked about an animal with his original paperwork but sold by a third party: ..."hopefully the papers remained with the same snake"...
After that every time I buy a ball python 100% hetero for something I request a picture ID that identifies the markings, with a signature of the original breeder on it. It is highly unlikely that two ball pythons will have exactly the same pattern. Of course that will not work with "snowballs" but who cares for the ID in that case <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='
'>
Regards
I assume you are talking about hetero for albino ball pythons, and yes prices have dropped significantly. You can buy 2002 babies 100% heteros for albinos from reputable breeders for $1,000 per pair. Again I'm not saying that those that sell females for less than $500 are not the real deal, but I wouldn't be at ease putting years of time and effort just to discover they were not. "Possible heteros" are a gamble, and I don't like them being overpriced.
In my opinion papers for "possibles" are worthless, and are just a disclaimer, unless you deal with reputable breeders. Then again most of the snakes sold "with papers" don't come with picture ID or microchiped. In words of a well known breeder when asked about an animal with his original paperwork but sold by a third party: ..."hopefully the papers remained with the same snake"...
After that every time I buy a ball python 100% hetero for something I request a picture ID that identifies the markings, with a signature of the original breeder on it. It is highly unlikely that two ball pythons will have exactly the same pattern. Of course that will not work with "snowballs" but who cares for the ID in that case <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='
'> Regards
Seamus Haley
Big Game Hunter
One thing that is important to remember with any basic recessive genetic morph is that the price drops at an exponential rate.
Given the basic premise that each animal posessing the genetics can produce multiple offspring over a period of time the market will become more and more saturated... demand goes down as avaliability goes up and the price drops... Slowly at first and then fairly quickly as the morph becomes much more common... Even the genders show a reversal of price for similar reasons...
Initially males will go for much more money, having the ability to breed with multiple females and produce many more hets than a single female could... After there are multiple sources of hets and multiple sources of the animals that are homozygous for the desired trait, the price of females is suddenly higher because people need to produce animals that are displaying the trait... Always easier to do with two full (trait) animals since you don't end up with possible het offspring and you're guaranteed the entire clutch will posess the trait (or it's not cut and dry genetics... codominant genes get fun).
Even allowing for the possibilities of unbred animals carrying the genes, any regretable infertilities or accidental deaths... The numbers of offspring produced each year outnumber the breeding animals that have the trait... and each animal can be bred multiple years.
A decent, easy to visualize and fairly recent example would be Albino leopard geckos (made a faster example because of temp sexing)... Five years ago they were HUGE ticket items... Even three and four years ago they were pricey enough to be considered "High end" by many people... Now they sell them at Petsmart, straight from the C.R.A.P. (Incidentally, anyone know if Rainwater's still in jail?). Many people can describe the exact same situation with albino burms.
There are certain factors that determine the price... market saturation and demand are a given. The speed at which the animal matures and the ease and size of clutches is a factor as well. Albino BCI were developed around the same time as Albino regius... The Albino BCI dropped in price faster because they have larger clutches with fewer slugs.
All this has an effect on how worthwhile the animals are as an investment. If you're looking to make money, you need to get in on a morph early, with a substantial investment and have breeding success. Keeping holdbacks and understanding the specific gentics involved are a must. However if you're looking for an animal that might just pay for it's own cost after a few years... or keep itself fed... Then buying later won't be a problem. And of course looking simply to accomplish something (A liking for the animals, just to see if you can, advancing your own knowledge and enjoyment) Then price isn't much of an issue...
Point being... There's a time when you get a serious drop in market prices for any given morph... maybe not to the cost of a "normal" but a signifigant bottoming out of the cost. Albino Balls, Albino BCI and a few other fairly popular morphs that were "super high end" three years ago are hitting that right about now... And remember that anything you purchase now to breed won't be mature for 2-3 years or so (boid morphs) anyway and the market will drop again before you even produce your first neonate... So if you're looking for an investment that will make you rich... Take out a loan and buy yourself the axanthic GTP or start trolling the importers for off color WC animals you can breed out to determine if it's genetic or not.
It might be of note to mention that I hate morphs... I loathe them. Not quite as much as I despise hybridization... But Morphs make my skin itch and have gotten me in quite a few shouting matches in the past. And breeders who get some animal with a few slightly off color scales and throw some foolish name at it and sell it to ignorant people for thousands of dollars before it's even proved to be genetic make me quite angry. I have a few personal thoughts about the ethics and the conservation involved with maintaining populations that are evolutionarily viable "just in case" (look at amphibian populations) and I find the patterns that are natural and exist for a reason to be far better looking and more interesting, I know there's a reason that albinos (and the like) are comparatively rare in the wild... I have a few thoughts about the morals of demanding disgusting amounts of money for traits that are quantitative or not genetically proven and frankly I think most morphs are just plain ugly... These are opinions of course. Never would I attempt to force my views on others... convince them through argument and debate perhaps but never ram them down someone's throat without a chance for rebuttal.
The above paragraph of course lending some measure of understanding for my personal viewpoint and might perhaps mitigate the paragraphs above it that discuss market value of morphs. I tried to keep it fairly impartial but it really needs a disclaimer just in case I've been skewing my facts a bit to adhere to my perception (Everyone does to some degree or another) and understandable alter the viewpoints of anyone who read it.
That being said, it is still my firm belief that the market has essentially been saturated by albino ball pythons (and the prices for next years offspring will reflect this) and buying neonates... especially het or poss het neonates at this time to breed three years from now is not reccomended from a financial investment statndpoint. Doing it simply because you like the species however is a distinct and seperate matter... Although waiting a year or two will probably get you full albinos for around that $500 mark.
Given the basic premise that each animal posessing the genetics can produce multiple offspring over a period of time the market will become more and more saturated... demand goes down as avaliability goes up and the price drops... Slowly at first and then fairly quickly as the morph becomes much more common... Even the genders show a reversal of price for similar reasons...
Initially males will go for much more money, having the ability to breed with multiple females and produce many more hets than a single female could... After there are multiple sources of hets and multiple sources of the animals that are homozygous for the desired trait, the price of females is suddenly higher because people need to produce animals that are displaying the trait... Always easier to do with two full (trait) animals since you don't end up with possible het offspring and you're guaranteed the entire clutch will posess the trait (or it's not cut and dry genetics... codominant genes get fun).
Even allowing for the possibilities of unbred animals carrying the genes, any regretable infertilities or accidental deaths... The numbers of offspring produced each year outnumber the breeding animals that have the trait... and each animal can be bred multiple years.
A decent, easy to visualize and fairly recent example would be Albino leopard geckos (made a faster example because of temp sexing)... Five years ago they were HUGE ticket items... Even three and four years ago they were pricey enough to be considered "High end" by many people... Now they sell them at Petsmart, straight from the C.R.A.P. (Incidentally, anyone know if Rainwater's still in jail?). Many people can describe the exact same situation with albino burms.
There are certain factors that determine the price... market saturation and demand are a given. The speed at which the animal matures and the ease and size of clutches is a factor as well. Albino BCI were developed around the same time as Albino regius... The Albino BCI dropped in price faster because they have larger clutches with fewer slugs.
All this has an effect on how worthwhile the animals are as an investment. If you're looking to make money, you need to get in on a morph early, with a substantial investment and have breeding success. Keeping holdbacks and understanding the specific gentics involved are a must. However if you're looking for an animal that might just pay for it's own cost after a few years... or keep itself fed... Then buying later won't be a problem. And of course looking simply to accomplish something (A liking for the animals, just to see if you can, advancing your own knowledge and enjoyment) Then price isn't much of an issue...
Point being... There's a time when you get a serious drop in market prices for any given morph... maybe not to the cost of a "normal" but a signifigant bottoming out of the cost. Albino Balls, Albino BCI and a few other fairly popular morphs that were "super high end" three years ago are hitting that right about now... And remember that anything you purchase now to breed won't be mature for 2-3 years or so (boid morphs) anyway and the market will drop again before you even produce your first neonate... So if you're looking for an investment that will make you rich... Take out a loan and buy yourself the axanthic GTP or start trolling the importers for off color WC animals you can breed out to determine if it's genetic or not.
It might be of note to mention that I hate morphs... I loathe them. Not quite as much as I despise hybridization... But Morphs make my skin itch and have gotten me in quite a few shouting matches in the past. And breeders who get some animal with a few slightly off color scales and throw some foolish name at it and sell it to ignorant people for thousands of dollars before it's even proved to be genetic make me quite angry. I have a few personal thoughts about the ethics and the conservation involved with maintaining populations that are evolutionarily viable "just in case" (look at amphibian populations) and I find the patterns that are natural and exist for a reason to be far better looking and more interesting, I know there's a reason that albinos (and the like) are comparatively rare in the wild... I have a few thoughts about the morals of demanding disgusting amounts of money for traits that are quantitative or not genetically proven and frankly I think most morphs are just plain ugly... These are opinions of course. Never would I attempt to force my views on others... convince them through argument and debate perhaps but never ram them down someone's throat without a chance for rebuttal.
The above paragraph of course lending some measure of understanding for my personal viewpoint and might perhaps mitigate the paragraphs above it that discuss market value of morphs. I tried to keep it fairly impartial but it really needs a disclaimer just in case I've been skewing my facts a bit to adhere to my perception (Everyone does to some degree or another) and understandable alter the viewpoints of anyone who read it.
That being said, it is still my firm belief that the market has essentially been saturated by albino ball pythons (and the prices for next years offspring will reflect this) and buying neonates... especially het or poss het neonates at this time to breed three years from now is not reccomended from a financial investment statndpoint. Doing it simply because you like the species however is a distinct and seperate matter... Although waiting a year or two will probably get you full albinos for around that $500 mark.
Seamus Haley
Big Game Hunter
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">straight from the C.R.A.P. (Incidentally, anyone know if Rainwater's still in jail?). </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Just a bit of an amendment... I know Rainwater is not associated in any way with the C.R.A.P. or Ron Tremper and I'd like to make it somewhat clear because Ron's an upstanding guy who deserves respect and has always dealt fairly with people... Rainwater's a criminal (insert loathesome animal here) who deserves more than what he got... The only reason I mentioned one after the other was because these guys were the Big Name albino leo producers a few years back, even if Rainwater's weren't actually albino.
Just a bit of an amendment... I know Rainwater is not associated in any way with the C.R.A.P. or Ron Tremper and I'd like to make it somewhat clear because Ron's an upstanding guy who deserves respect and has always dealt fairly with people... Rainwater's a criminal (insert loathesome animal here) who deserves more than what he got... The only reason I mentioned one after the other was because these guys were the Big Name albino leo producers a few years back, even if Rainwater's weren't actually albino.
Hey Lily, I would recommand buying from reputable breeders. Personally, I bought a few het albino boa and double het snow boa from a private breeder, and it turned out BAD! No albino, no anerythristics, no snow. And there is nothing I can do about it now.
However, it doesn't mean buying from 'regular people' is bad. It's just alitte bigger chance you are taking. But it can be a good one, like the hets I sold you before. They produced albino ball for you this year, and I am definitely NOT a top breeder. So, ask alot questions before you buy. If something sounds too good to be true, then it's probably is. Just watch out, and ask around first! Good luck! Chen Lai
However, it doesn't mean buying from 'regular people' is bad. It's just alitte bigger chance you are taking. But it can be a good one, like the hets I sold you before. They produced albino ball for you this year, and I am definitely NOT a top breeder. So, ask alot questions before you buy. If something sounds too good to be true, then it's probably is. Just watch out, and ask around first! Good luck! Chen Lai
T. Granger
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You post a great question, I personally do not buy hets. Unless I know the seller, It is way to easy to get burned buying a het. Now as for the "BIG NAMED BREEDERS" they do tend to sell their animals for a bit more because you are also buying their name with the snake.
Lily,
OFTEN I am the last one to find out about a "project" animals *JUST* before it winds down from its high priced buying frenzy. I have observed that when this happens, the initial breeders of this snake "UNLOAD" huge amounts of their hets onto the market, flooding it and saturateing it. They get their $ before the market"Hits rock bottem" Albino balls arent that easy to rpoduce, and I am shocked that hets could be sold so cheaply. But it makes sense, as they were expensive for YEARS, and alot of folks bought hets and tried to produce albinos.
Now, I may seem hypocritical, because I have albino colombian boa constrictors, and striped red blood pythons, but I *TOTALLY* agree with the former poster "Seamus Haley"
I truly appreciate the natural looking forms of snakes and find them to be much hardier with less complications and a better reproductive history than most "Morph" snakes.
Example is boas: We breed for any color trait, inbreed to fix it and what do we end up with? At times we end up with baby boas that are disfigured, albino babies missing one or both eyes upon birth, offset jaws, and loust temparments.
Seamus had it right, natural is much better.
As far as who to buy your definite het for albino balls from, I PERSONALLY would only buy them from a close friend, whos name is Matt Tsunoda and whos business is Rising Sun Reptiles.
WHY would I buy from him alone? Primarily because I have known the guy for some 17 odd years, have BEEN to his house and SEEN his albino, def hets breeders, incubation set up and babies.
Buying hets is always a gamble,Lily, I bought some definite het for albino hognose from a FELLOW BREEDER at a west coast reptile show. Keep in mind we are BOTH vendors at this show and have to look at each other from show to show to show.
.....So, I purchased these things at a fairly high price, when they were very popular and took them home. Finances got bad so I was forced to sell them to a close friend, who felt like he was getting a Christmas gift, as most of the hard work had been done(2 yrs of it). My close friend went to breed them, bred them early(In my opinion) got alimited number of eggs and non of them were albino.
Fair enough...he rushed it and bred to early.
He tried the next year..........
Produced lots of eggs........
None of them albino.............
And then he bred them the next year.......
Again, no albinos in the litter!
And for good measure he bred it again, THIS time he ran an albino male through the suposed "DEFINITE HET" female.
.................you guessed it, no albinos from this litter either!
And *MAGICALLY* the guy that sold them to me 4 years before closed up shop and couldnt be found to talk to.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Fast forward two years, I see the guy at a show, hit him up, he wiggles instead of trying to make good on it. I hit him up at another show..he wiggles, thenm says he doesnt have the money but can offer me CORNSNAKES from his table to make up the $$ amount(His corns sucked btw)
Lily: This is a valuable lesson for you, from me. Dont be stupid, be carefull who you buy from. Big names are ok, but even they rip people off,I am sorry but they do. I can give you the guys phone number that I mentioned(Matt Tsunoda) if you email me, he was president of our local herp society for a number of years, is a law enforcment officer(Read...doesnt need the money) and I would vouch for any of his snakes. Bargain hets aren't always a bargain, what you are buying is TRUST.
Thanks,
email me,
Fred Albury
AZTEC REPTILES
OFTEN I am the last one to find out about a "project" animals *JUST* before it winds down from its high priced buying frenzy. I have observed that when this happens, the initial breeders of this snake "UNLOAD" huge amounts of their hets onto the market, flooding it and saturateing it. They get their $ before the market"Hits rock bottem" Albino balls arent that easy to rpoduce, and I am shocked that hets could be sold so cheaply. But it makes sense, as they were expensive for YEARS, and alot of folks bought hets and tried to produce albinos.
Now, I may seem hypocritical, because I have albino colombian boa constrictors, and striped red blood pythons, but I *TOTALLY* agree with the former poster "Seamus Haley"
I truly appreciate the natural looking forms of snakes and find them to be much hardier with less complications and a better reproductive history than most "Morph" snakes.
Example is boas: We breed for any color trait, inbreed to fix it and what do we end up with? At times we end up with baby boas that are disfigured, albino babies missing one or both eyes upon birth, offset jaws, and loust temparments.
Seamus had it right, natural is much better.
As far as who to buy your definite het for albino balls from, I PERSONALLY would only buy them from a close friend, whos name is Matt Tsunoda and whos business is Rising Sun Reptiles.
WHY would I buy from him alone? Primarily because I have known the guy for some 17 odd years, have BEEN to his house and SEEN his albino, def hets breeders, incubation set up and babies.
Buying hets is always a gamble,Lily, I bought some definite het for albino hognose from a FELLOW BREEDER at a west coast reptile show. Keep in mind we are BOTH vendors at this show and have to look at each other from show to show to show.
.....So, I purchased these things at a fairly high price, when they were very popular and took them home. Finances got bad so I was forced to sell them to a close friend, who felt like he was getting a Christmas gift, as most of the hard work had been done(2 yrs of it). My close friend went to breed them, bred them early(In my opinion) got alimited number of eggs and non of them were albino.
Fair enough...he rushed it and bred to early.
He tried the next year..........
Produced lots of eggs........
None of them albino.............
And then he bred them the next year.......
Again, no albinos in the litter!
And for good measure he bred it again, THIS time he ran an albino male through the suposed "DEFINITE HET" female.
.................you guessed it, no albinos from this litter either!
And *MAGICALLY* the guy that sold them to me 4 years before closed up shop and couldnt be found to talk to.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Fast forward two years, I see the guy at a show, hit him up, he wiggles instead of trying to make good on it. I hit him up at another show..he wiggles, thenm says he doesnt have the money but can offer me CORNSNAKES from his table to make up the $$ amount(His corns sucked btw)
Lily: This is a valuable lesson for you, from me. Dont be stupid, be carefull who you buy from. Big names are ok, but even they rip people off,I am sorry but they do. I can give you the guys phone number that I mentioned(Matt Tsunoda) if you email me, he was president of our local herp society for a number of years, is a law enforcment officer(Read...doesnt need the money) and I would vouch for any of his snakes. Bargain hets aren't always a bargain, what you are buying is TRUST.
Thanks,
email me,
Fred Albury
AZTEC REPTILES