High School Grant, $3000...HELP!!

[vferra7777]

<img src="C:\Documents and Settings\Ferraiolo\Desktop\cage.jpg">
Hello. I have attached a picture of our cages. We have two. Thank you Cages By Design. One like you see, dry, the other more moist but not "rainforest".

The dry one I and my students would like to set up a "world" like a powerful being but not a God with a capital "G". We want to play god, little "g". My idea for the dry cage which is 4' long, 4' tall and 2' wide. Some dry type geckos in the lower layer, a few rose hair tarantulas, some collareds or the like up high and a pair of juvenile Greek or Russian tortoises or box turtles down below. As the animals get too large, we would adopt them out to individuals or trade for smaller of the same species. Any babies would be a benefit and sold or donated but generating income is very low on our priority list.

The other would hold arboreal geckos like cresteds or Giant Halmaheras etc, maybe a pair of Jackson chameleons, maybe some larger anoles, some millipedes, mantids, the kids would like a pair of Frilleds also.

These lists are possibilities. We would really like to make 2 ecosystems that closely resemble normal environments . So compatability is a must or a strong desire.

We would love advice on what animals would work in these environments and how I can make the environments better. Thank you, Vinny Ferraiolo

ANY IDEAS?????

Vinny Ferraiolo
Thomas Dale High School
Biology Teacher
http://www.sciline.net
(804) 768-6245

 

[Karen Hulvey]

Mixing species in captivity is never a good idea. You don't have to worry about any offspring because if you mix animals like you're thinking, you will never, ever have any babies. They will stress each other out. You also have no idea what diseases can be spread when different species from totally different parts of the world are mixed together. Chameleons stress easily and the Jackson's will certainly suffer under these conditions.

You cannot put two tarantulas in the same enclsure or they will fight. I know your next question. I've heard it 20X when I tell people that they can't mix Ts: "You have to put two together when you breed them so why can't I keep two together?" Because in the wild after a male breeds the female she EATS him. Two females will fight. In the wild the loser simply runs away. But in an enclosure it can't run away so it will be killed.

The heat the collard lizards need would probably kill the tarantulas.

The only thing I've done is mix several species of geckos such as golden geckos, white line geckos and Bibron's geckos together.

Why not use one enclosure for a pair of frilled dragons and one enclsure for geckos or torts (Greek & Russian tortoises will not outgrow that enclosure, they stay small) or a pair of Jackson's, etc.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. But, like you already are, do your homework on whatever species you decide to go with or the animals will suffer and will die because of it.

 

[Junkyard]

...As the animals get too large, we would adopt them out to individuals or trade for smaller of the same species. Any babies would be a benefit and sold or donated but generating income is very low on our priority list.

This may not be as easy as it sounds, whom would you adopt them out to? Whom would you trade with? For what? Reptiles are not as dispensable as you may think. Please, what ever reptiles you take in, keep them as long as they will live. Teach your students responsibility and accountability.

 

[The Reptile House]

I agree with the adopting out part, please let me tell you from experience, I foster for a rescue on occasion when I have the space in quaranteen available to take them in but as most cases they are hear with me for quite some time before we can get them adopted out to new homes, it really is not that easy of a task most of the time. I also keep T's myself and that is very true you defiantly can not put 2 in the same enclosure(well you can but expect one to be gone very soon if not easily both) and that's really not a cool thing to do to them at all. I really stay away from mixing species at all costs, it is just alto safer. Do your homework and enjoy what you do end up with. Shanell Sepulveda

 

[vferra7777]

Other Ideas

Thanx for all the input. My students are researching the systems and have narrowed it down to a dry environment with; 1 Tarantula, size corresponding to other animals in its "world", leopard geckos, with a heat pad in their section of the "world", collared lizards that should climb and bask, baby sulcatas and a pair of mice (adam and Eve).

The more moist world; a pair of frilleds (they really fell in love ith them), pair of Jackson chameleons, pair of crested geckos up high and a stripe knee tarantula. I would also like to put a box turtle in here if possible. NO SNAKES! Public schools are very funny about snakes. I think I can alter light and heat to make it all work.

We found a local pet store (Off The Ark Exotic Pets) that will buy/trade any animals that either outgrow our world or just don't fit. We also found Xtreme Reptiles in Miami that sells everything we need and they have also been FANTASTIC throughout all of this by answering questions and just being very nice. Thanx Alfredo and Pat.

How does this sound? We will do our best to make all the animals happy and healthy, but I do fear that some will have problems. My main concern now is how they may stress from just so many students being close. After a few weeks, they kids will adjust to the cages but will te animals adjust to the stress of noise, smell etc.?

I will start posting our progress on sciline.net in a new section and the first page under Biology. Please feel free to check on us and offer feedback. they gave us alot of money and freedom so i don't want to mess it up

Vinny Ferraiolo
Thomas Dale High School (Home of Rudi Johnson from the Bengals)
(804) 539-8673

 

[Junkyard]

Mice with a tarantula? That does not sound good. The cages you have pictures of, that does not look like a lot of room for any tortoise/turtles. I have box turtles, they like to do a lot of walking.

Maybe I have this all wrong, are installing shelves in the cages to seperate each species so they have their own space? You mention a lower and upper side to these cages.

 

[The Reptile House]

Ya you put mice in with anything and you might as well kiss everything else in there good bye. Those cages are not suited to be able to handle what you are wanting to do. You can not get a heat gradient needed for all those different species. You do not need to worry so much about all the commotion of the passers bye but you need to really worry about what you are wanting to mix together. Frilleds are runners and they need more length space if I am not mistaken, someone correct me if I am wrong please? The tortoises defiantly need more space. Those cages do really well for Chameleons, geckos, lizards. By the way if you put a baby Tarantula in such a large cage it will parish as well. Give your students a list and have them pick (2) from it one for each cage and save the reptiles from a world that they should not be forced to be in where they will stress and parish from being where they do not belong with the others you want to mix them with. Shanell.

 

[vferra7777]

How my grant is worded

I know it sounds bad, but the grant is worded for us to create a synthetic "world" where populations co-exist somehow. I have gone over it and made a small world. If I buy animals that are of proper size, some adults, some babies and some juvies, the size will work. If I re-wire some things and alter the cages as is, I believe i can the make the environment work. If there is a problem with the animals, I will do my best to get them out of there. I have 4 or 5 other cages already set up for that situation.

It boils down to we don't get the money if we don't follow through on the wording of the grant. Besides the cages and animals, the grant aso paid or technology and supplies that I could get under normal budgetary options. We got CBLs, probes, technical and non technical supplies. It makes a huge difference. All I have to do to keep it all is follow through on the wording and make it work as long as possible. Ideally i would like to have 3 different taxa classes of animals together. If that is not possible i will rework it, but bottom line is MORE THAN TWO different classes MUST be coexisting in our biosphere (cube) or NO MONEY!!

Can we pull it off somehow with different classes ie, amphibia, mammalia, reptilia, arachnia etc.

I desperately need advice even if you think it is a long shot. There must be at least two of the above classes that can co-exist together in some form of their respective life cycles for at least 9 months.

 

[Junkyard]

I really do not think you are paying much attention to what has been posted. Certain animals you want will not work together. Even if it is a long shot, we would rather see the animals in a proper safe environment. Science is not "god", it is a little boy using a magnifying glass on ants.

 

[Cat_72]

If that is not possible i will rework it, but bottom line is MORE THAN TWO different classes MUST be coexisting in our biosphere (cube) or NO MONEY!!

So....bottom line......you care more about getting the money than the well-being of the animals you intend to put into this "world"???

Re-read what has been written here already. Does it really count as these animals co-existing if they either die or are killed and eaten soon after you create this "world"???

*shakes head sadly and walks away*

 

[Junkyard]

The problem with your idea of a little "world" is that there is no place for any of these animals to run and hide if in danger. There is no way they can escape a bad situation. They cannot get away, they are stuck in a small enviroment. Every side of their world contains a wall, some see through, some not. There is always another animal that may take their hide/home, a place to hide is superfluous to them.

 

[vferra7777]

The Grant

The money is always an important consideration to any public school teacher. Sometimes we have to do things we normally wouldn,t do to get it for the "big picture", but killing even arachnids is not something you can do in a PUBLIC SCHOOL. I/we need it for other things I feel are important to do my job as well as I can. I understand though what others are saying that the animals may or will die.

First, I have not started the project nor have I purchased any animals. I was allowing my students to research animals that according to environmental factors MAY be able to co-habitat. Then they were allowed to trim that list down to animals that either piqued their interest or just fit the environment.

I came here with my students, they are here now, and are actually writting this post in the first person, to ask advice. We do not want to kill any animals especially in a public school setting that will be heavily scrutinized by those that "dish" out the money (Please do not read anymore into what we type than what we type). We are trying to learn about animals, ecology, interaction, adaptation and all the other categories of biology.

We would like advice that would help us do the project the right way. All we are asking is that someone out there has been able to keep at least 2 different animals together in the same cage/environment for a time without stress or death.

Mr ferraiolo, our teacher, said this along with kingsnake.com would be the place to go for expert advice. The people on here are really no different than are fellow 16 year old classmates. You ask for help and all you get are people talking about you behind your back (you know some of you are) and NEGATIVE criticism that accomplishes nothing. My name is Jennifer and I honestly cannot believe professional adults have written what they have written when we just asked for help.

I have been a high school teacher for 10 years and I have never had any group of students behave the way you all have behaved when we just asked for advice. You mean to tell me it is impossible to keep any two different classes (amphibia, reptilia, insecta) in the same ecosystem without one perishing. MOST of you have been completely worthless and a terrible embarassment to us. We will continue on our own and figure it out locally through Off The Ark and Noah's pet stores. THEY actually made an effort to give positive contructive advice.

To those that have actually helped us, we say thank you. To the others there is nothing to say besides you make most teenagers look better by example.

If any of you care to see how it turns out (please do not respond because we will no longer answer anyone from this forum back. You will be wasting your time) you may go to sciline.net, click on biology and see our project unfold. We probably will make a few mistakes and it is quite possible that an animal will die. We are terribly sorry for anymistakes we made, but problems will always arise in any project. It would have been nice if someonme would have just contacted us and said..." you know, it is not very alluring BUT I have been keeping anoles and house geckos together with a few millipedes for over a year now and they seem fine". This came from Wyatt and we thank him for his kindness and cooperation. must be others out there who are not embarassments to the hobby let alone a modern civilised world.


GOOD BYE!!!
Thomas Dale Biology Classes 2005-2006
Chester, Va 23832
(804) 648-6245

 

[RosterImposter]

These people only gave advice for the animals safety. It is more important to us than your little project.

You wanted to keep tarantulas, mice, 2 Jacksons chameleons (1 is hard enough to care with all these other animals, they stress very easy), Im not going to go on because it is just way too.....I cant even think of the right word to describe it.

The reason Wyatt keeps those together is because there is little harm that one could do to its other tank mates, however you want to put many different species that might potentially hunt each other in the wild in the same cage.

Jennifer, we care about the ANIMAL's safety, if you put all of those in a cage, they will all die. Not trying to be mean, but it will happen if you house them together. I dont see what you mean when you say "The people on here are really no different than are fellow 16 year old classmates." We are trying to help the animals, and in no way try and make you feel stupid or inferior to us in anyway, it was just a bad idea to put a tortiose in a cage, they require pens.

Mr. Dale, you must have strict rules in your school, we in NO WAY have behaved as badly as you think. We arent being mean, we are being concerned. We understand that you need money, but animals (reptiles and amphibians especially) get mistreated and die by inexperienced people. We do not want to see that happen, so we gave you advice on NOT to do it.

I will be giving you a call, and Im sure others will too. I will probably call around 4pm and hopefully you will be there and will be willing to listen.

Babac Saiedi

 

[Cat_72]

The whole problem is.......you asked for advice, and then ignored what was given or argued it.

If you think it is a bad thing or makes any of us "unprofessional" that most of us here are more concerned about the welfare of the animals than your little project, it is a sad commentary on what is being taught in our schools today. The fact that you can be so totally casual when mentioning, "the animals may die" really, really bothers me....

I too understand that getting any kind of funding can be a problem...but if it is clearly obvious that this project will not work, and will cause needless suffering of the animals....why not try something else?

 

[hhmoore]

too bad he swore off the forum. I was looking forward to adding my 2 cents. AAAAAAH, what the heck....just in case he takes a peek. In a suitably sized mini-world, several species and even classes of creatures can be kept...PROVIDED that the physical needs of each can be met & maintained over time. Unfortunately, the animals you are suggesting for the respective enclosures simply will not work. Their needs are just too different, some will munch on the others, and some are just not suited to that type of enclosure. If you come back, and would like to try to discuss something that will work, as opposed to something that is doomed to fail...feel free to contact me

 

[Junkyard]

Do not be so upset with what was posted, the concern is simply for the animals. I know of many here that will only keep two animals together during breeding season. After that, they are seperated and kept in different cages until it is time to breed them again.

Many here specialize in captive breeding of animals, they do not want all their hard work going straight down the drain over a high school project that imposes a risk to the animals they spent so much time and money on.

 

[The Reptile House]

You really do not seem to understand at all that you will KILL those helpless reptiles and that is just sad that all you really care about is the money. Enough said from me and every one else here which is all we care about are the reptiles because that does not seem to be a really big concern for you at all! I hope you really think twice about all the people here including me who are just here to help you. All of us on this site care so much for the reptiles that we own and that is why all of us have voiced such great concern over your "project". We really wish you and your students the best but they really need to know that this is really not such a hot idea and should be taught accordingly. Can't you guys have extra fundraisers or something to come up with the funds rather than kill off quite alot of helpless creatures. I would be more than happy to lend some ideas and contacts in that department if you like, just let me know. Shanell.

 

[RosterImposter]

Im just wondering, is any body else going to call him, or is it just going to be me? I mean, he wouldnt put the number there unless he wanted people to call him.

 

[hhmoore]

Do not be so upset with what was posted, the concern is simply for the animals. I know of many here that will only keep two animals together during breeding season. After that, they are seperated and kept in different cages until it is time to breed them again.

Many here specialize in captive breeding of animals, they do not want all their hard work going straight down the drain over a high school project that imposes a risk to the animals they spent so much time and money on.

aawwwwwwwww, michael...I liked it better the first way. And this...this version gives no indication of the time and effort you put into the original.

 

[Junkyard]

Okay, I saved the first one, so I will repost it as soon as I get home from work.