How long should the sex of a sold animal be guaranteed?

[DAND]

Should there be a time limit, a line drawn when it is too late to sex a purchased animal to hold the seller accountable if there was a mistake?

Or should the sell guarantee the sex forever?

 

[JudyC]

I think it should be up to the seller to have a written TOS in which such things are spelled out very clearly. The buyer bears some responsibility in making sure they are getting what they think they are, and a properly written TOS will make sure the buyer lives up to their end.

Of course, some sellers will want to offer a life-time guarantee on the presumed sex of their animals and that would be a bonus in their favor when it comes to customer service. But sellers should be able to make their own choices in such matters....so long as their policy is clearly known to the buyer.

A seller might want to put a "statute of limitations" on such an issue to protect themselves, and I think they would be right in doing so, so long as it is reasonable. But even if it's unreasonable, it's still their choice and the buyer can weigh that in their decision to buy from them or not.

In a case where no set policy is declared, I still feel SOME of the responsibility lies on the buyer's shoulders. If a snake is re-sexed within a short period of time and found to be mis-sexed, the seller should make good 100%. But if the buyer waits months and months...then he should be prepared to eat some of the "damages" that result.

What is considered a "reasonable" amount of time to pass...and how to divide the "damages" between buyer and seller will never be agreed upon industry-wide as everyone will have their own different ideas and expectations. A good businessman will WORK with his buyer to do his best to meet their expectations, but there are some buyers out there that are simply beyond reason and disagreements will always happen.

SO...WRITE YOUR TOS and MAKE IT CLEAR!!!

 

[deborahbroadus]

I give it two -three weeks because in the event of a refund, the animal has to be returned. Therefore, I don't want the buyer to have hold of it too long, this also "forces" a level of responsiblity.

It is my responsiblity to correctly sex, but it is also the buyer's responsiblity to check his merchandise?

 

[hhmoore]

While the sex of an animal isn't going to change, regardless of whether the period is 2 weeks, 2 months, or 2 years, there are some other factors to consider (especially given the current climate):
1) Many of the people offering great deals on "correctly sexed" animals probably won't even be around in a year or two...good luck on somebody making good after they've given up on the hobby/business (though a select few would undoubtedly still make a reasonable effort).
2) Money concerns are already an issue for many people. Look how many people are selling off critters just to pay bills...those funds are gone in short order. How many times do we see that, and statements to the effect of I can't give you what I don't have, on the BOI?
3) The volatility of the market also bears consideration. What sold for $1000 just a couple years ago, in many cases, is down to 25% of that. Heck, I've seen prices drop 50% just over the span of 6 months. That has nothing to do with the seller not getting what was paid for...but it is certainly a factor in resolution. What is deemed an acceptable effort will depend on the people and animals involved.


As I've mentioned - I have received several missexed snakes over the years, and the responses have varied. One person, contacted within two weeks of purchase, insisted that I was mistaken, and "guaranteed" I received a 1.1 pair (it was 2.0, and I got nothing). One person I notified, just for informational purposes, several months later; and he offered to get me a replacement (I declined, because my male was actually a female). Other times, I didn't even bother notifying the person because of the elapsed time - if I had spent $3000, and received a male instead of a female, I don't know that I would have been able to shrug it off as easily....so I guess, for me, AS A BUYER, price is also a factor. A $250 animal isn't likely to be worth the aggravation for me, if I didn't confirm the gender in a "reasonable" time. If I check within said reasonable time, though, I'd be clamoring for either the right snake or my money.

When the situation was reversed, and I sent an incorrectly sexed snake, I made every effort to make it right....or course, the customer wasn't carrying on cursing at, and threatening, me at a show, either :

All said, while the seller is responsible for correctly identifying the gender of the animals sold, I do feel that the buyer should shoulder some responsibility by confirming that the received animal IS what it is supposed to be.



Just to put a slightly different twist on things, what sort of PROOF should be required that an animal has been misrepresented? I can point to several people who have received incorrect complaints of females being males - in some cases, the customers also mentioned that they paid too much for the snake, and they have found others for significantly less. While it may not nullify the complaint, it certainly raises some red flags for me. Short of video proof which clearly shows that it is the same animal, followed by eversion of hemipenes, we are pretty much forced to accept the word of our customers...and doing so costs us money in the form of return shipping, and/or another shipped animal.

 

[SPJ]

What about when a buyer rams a probe into a female and it probes male (as well as being injured)? I have had that happen to me before.
I refuse to take it back after that.

 

[deborahbroadus]

What about when a buyer rams a probe into a female and it probes male (as well as being injured)? I have had that happen to me before.
I refuse to take it back after that.

Interesting...how can one tell if a probe has been "rammed" into a female? If she is popped will she show holes and scars? Why would not the holes heal back over since there is nothing holding them open?

 

[Lucille]

Dave is there a story behind this question?

 

[Southern Wolf]

My guess is he pulled it from one of the BOI threads. I think I remember it being side chatter in the thread. Something about someone sent the wrong sex snake.

 

[Gloryhound]

I think a reasonable time limit being established is probably the best route, particularly when dealing in animals over a given dollar value. With some breeders only having a couple clutches / litters a year, (producing less than 20 animals a year), you can't expect them to sit on cash in their account to cover a snake sale for too long particularly with economic times the way they are currently. A lot of breeders currently are lucky if their sales equal their feed bill, let alone all the other costs involved.

Then you get to some other kinds of reptiles and I've heard some of them are impossible to sex until they get to a given age. If they are younger than the acceptable sexing age I don't think any guarantee can be made.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Another thing to consider... and Im not sure if its been covered.

Lets say you guarantee sex for 6 months with a refund on return. How do you know that snake was properly taken care of for 6 months? How do you know what it may have come in contact with during that time? How do you know it's not just a buyers remorse return?

Im all for standing behind what you say it is.... but after an animal leaves my facilities... I dont have any control over how it was taken care of... therefore very long guarantee periods could lead to problems with the return.

 

[Melinda]

Great thread!!

Agree with everything already written.

Here's my stand on the subject. I will offer a gender guarantee for 30 days. I feel the buyer should double check, as mistakes can and will be made. I am not perfect. I will not refund after the 30 day period because of most of the reasons already posted above. Buyers remorse, husbandry, perhaps they've bred the tar out of the critter before reporting the issue to me, etc......... Way to many things to worry about.

I do believe a buyer should get what they paid for, but since I am not perfect, they must accept that fact and double check.

I'm still thinking about what kind of proof I would accept for wrongly sexed snakes.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Melinda.... question I have is....at day 29 .... do you really want the animal back in your collection not knowing how it was taken care of? And since you mentioned it.... how do you know that it wasn't bred (if its obviously breeding age) while it was out.

Lets say you sold it as a female... and it was a legit male. Lets also say this male was a co-dom morph BP. Whats to say they didnt put it with everything in their collection then sent it back to you Now they get their money back.... and they have a boat load of possible co-dom morph babies in the future.

just sayin......

 

[Melinda]

Melinda.... question I have is....at day 29 .... do you really want the animal back in your collection not knowing how it was taken care of? And since you mentioned it.... how do you know that it wasn't bred (if its obviously breeding age) while it was out.

Lets say you sold it as a female... and it was a legit male. Lets also say this male was a co-dom morph BP. Whats to say they didnt put it with everything in their collection then sent it back to you Now they get their money back.... and they have a boat load of possible co-dom morph babies in the future.

just sayin......

Good points, maybe I should shorten my guarantee.

Seriously though, you are absolutely correct. I am willing to risk the scenarios mentioned and hope I don't make a mistake. I also hope I don't sell to someone that would do that kind of thing. But, it's definitely a risk.

I have thought on the forever guarantee and I look at it this way, If I ordered a pair of shoes and received the wrong ones, it wouldn't be right for me to use the item forever and then ask for a refund based on "wrong item sent". By keeping the item and using it, I am accepting the item and I feel the seller shouldn't be on the hook forever.

I've only sold one mis-sexed animal and I did not check it's gender before I sold it, I trusted the seller I got it from. I now do triple quadruple checks on every animal coming in or out.

 

[SirenSanJose]

This also brings up an interesting dichotomy between snakes, and lizards. Critters like Crested Geckos all "appear" female until the males start maturing, developing prominent pores, and dropping the hemipenal bulge. So on animals like this, a genuine mis-sexing error can happen and not be apparent until months after the fact.

I loupe animals with a 30x jeweler's loupe. If I see clear, prominent pores, I'll sell it as a "probable male" but with no guarantee.

As soon as a bulge drops, it's a "guaranteed male".

All other cresties get sold as "unsexed", you get what you get, no gender guarantee, until they reach 15 grams.

At 15 grams with no pores or bulge, I'll bump the price a bit, call it a "probable" female, but offer no guarantee on gender.

At 20 grams with no bulge and no pores I'll guarantee it a female.

VERY occasionally there's an outlying late developing male that can take a month or two or three, but still drop a bulge after 20 grams. (I think I've had it happen to me, personally, once.)

So in my case as a seller I'd offer a life-long guarantee on any animal I sold as "guaranteed gender" since it can take weeks or months to "show" otherwise.

I'd consider appropriate proof a good, close-up pore shot, a shot of the bulge, or shots of the animal with eggs (if it was a mix-sexed 'thought to be male' was a girl) since they will lay without being bred.

 

[Clay Davenport]

My TOS stipulates a 7 day sex guarantee. The truth is it would be a rare circumstance that I would adhere to that and not extend it, but it's there just for those rare circumstances.
That being said, I think a month is a reasonable enough time limit to place on sex guarantee. Experienced people who know how to sex really shouldn't need more than a couple of days, but people who can't do it, and possibly don't know that many others around them, might need the additional time to locate someone to do it for them.

While it's true the sex will never change, the gender of a snake can be determined anytime. With genetics it may take 2-4 years or perhaps longer to conclusively prove that it isn't het for something.
If a buyer buys a missexed hatchling, raises it for 2-3 years then discovers it's a male upon first trying to breed it, I just can't agree with the buyer being expected to refund after that amount of time when it could have been discovered far sooner.

I've made sexing mistakes, and bought snakes that were sexed wrong. Anyone who says they've never made a mistake sexing snakes is either lying or hasn't sexed very many snakes. This being known by everyone, that snakes are sometimes difficult to sex, a buyer needs to take some of the responsibility for not double checking.
Offering a lifetime guarantee of the sex with the option of full refund at anytime is fine if that's what the seller wants to offer, but to expect that from a seller is asking too much in my opinion.

As far as verifying the mistake, if it's a low value animal I might just refund and be done with it, but if it's worth quite a bit I'd probably require the buyer to return the snake and upon my verification that it was indeed missexed I'd refund the purchase price and both shipping charges.

 

[Alex G]

With babies, especially snakes, it's hard a guarantee the sex, and it's damaging to sex them by probe until they're not quite so small, so it's very difficult to say how long a seller should guarantee sex. I like Diana's answer; when it's a hatchling, consider it unsexed regardless of what the seller says and take your chances. For adults, anyone experienced with the animal should be able to easily probe it/otherwise identify it, or else find someone who can probe.

 

[[email protected]]

I have been breeding for a little bit before I started breeding for myself in my home. When I placed my dragons up for sale I put probable, I had recieved my first bearded dragon and it looked female to me. A few months later it became apparent that it was male. I bought Duke unsexed so it didn't matter. Older dragons are easier to sex because of their size, and then I would place the sex, not just probable. I have never probed snakes when I worked as a breeder in San Diego but I was trained and did pop the snakes without causing harm and sexed them correctly. I was double checked later when my manager probed them. I take things on the seller's word because right now I can negotiate wrong sexes and move my projects around since I am looking to the future with that besides Duke being proven het hypo now that he and Lucy together produced a clutch containing hypos. All I knew of his genetics was that he is a citrus red cross. I was no longer working there and they had since gained new dragons.

 

[jmwboas]

Just my 2 cents

I think it all falls back on the sellers TOS. As for guaranteeing the sex, it should only be guaranteed to the person that bought it for as long as they own it. If the buyer still has it, the sex is guareenteed. once they get rid of it, and sell it on thier own terms, the original seller should no longer be responsible. This is just a thought I had and wondered what you all thought about it. Jeff

 

[hhmoore]

As far as verifying the mistake, if it's a low value animal I might just refund and be done with it, but if it's worth quite a bit I'd probably require the buyer to return the snake and upon my verification that it was indeed missexed I'd refund the purchase price and both shipping charges.

What if, upon receiving the snake, you find that you were correct? At that point, the snake is back in your possession, and the customer wants his/her money back.

 

[Clay Davenport]

What if, upon receiving the snake, you find that you were correct? At that point, the snake is back in your possession, and the customer wants his/her money back.

At that point if I have no doubts that I was correct in the sex, I'd refund the cost of the snake because I have it back. I wouldn't refund either of the shipping charges though. I don't feel the seller should have to eat shipping charges due to the buyers mistake.
It's a situation I hope never happens, because the outcome I'd expect is for the buyer to insist he was correct and I was stiffing him on the shipping and it'd end up on the BOI.